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Sophisticat

[CS2] Hakumen Combo Guide

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A universal mechanic of groundslide is the duration is shortened the higher the opponent is off the ground when struck.

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For now, I also agree in that 5c as a starter is iffy. You'll note that I put "[starter]" in front of most combos not just for aesthetic reasons: the starter can modify the combo itself on top of doing more/less damage due to proration values. If you're ambitious, including the low dmg values w/ modified strings for lesser starters would make the list more complete.

[starter] didn't allow me to get any damage values so I thought I'd go with 5c. Should I be working with 5a -> 5b or something else for the low damage values?

As for challenge 8, it has to do with how high the 6c hits. If you do 6c after Renka(K), then max delay 6c will result in hop -> 2c being possible. It's very tight, but doable. I believe Ryokoalways posted the exact mechanics a while back, so this is all I remember. Spark should be able to answer this one more precisely since I think Ryoko's got his own career now to take care of.

Hmm, looks like I wasn't clear about what I was asking for help with.

We already know that if you charge a Level 2 6c after a Renka(1) -> Kishuu you can hop 2c afterwards. This is because the amount of time it takes to charge a Level 2 6c is the same amount of time it takes the opponent to fully land on the ground, therefore ground sliding for the longest amount of time, and therefore giving you the time to hop 2c. Technically you don't have to charge to level 2 6c, but it's a good indicator of how long you have to charge in order to avoid hitting the opponent when she/he is still in the air.

What I was asking was if hop 6c hop 2c is universal after a hop/TK Tsubaki on an opponent on the ground (the opponent is therefore immediately ground sliding). The normal combo goes hop/tk Tsubaki -> 6c -> (hop if you get level 2 6c) 2c -> rest of Corner Loop (2). The combo to test goes hop/tk Tsubaki -> hop level 1 6c -> hop 2c -> rest of Corner Loop (2).

It's not, sadly.

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Oh yeah, that combo definitely works. It's tight, but 6c lv1 after Renka(K) is tighter. The trick is to hop the moment you recover from 6c. I find the execution a bit impractical, so I normally just do Tsu -> hop 2c -> CL (2) -> etc., though that's because I also do (fuzzy) j.B as hit-confirm first and the pushback/j.B height can make your distance vary.

As for starter, the shittiest one you can get is probably 2a as you can still combo into stuff with 5a CH and get better proration. So something like 2a -> 5b if some hit-confirming is necessary, and plain 2a otherwise.

@SG: Ah, that explains it! Yes, I believe that's what Ryoko was referring to. Thanks for the info.

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why is it that after landing 5D most ppl do 2C > gurren instead of doing 5C > gurren? isnt 5C much easier to land and does more damage?

also is the 2x j.a > 2C followup after a gurren wallbounce character specific? i had a lot of trouble landing it against carl, think it only worked once. And is it better to do 2x j.a or j.a > j.b?

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I'd imagine they want the 2C to lift the up high enough so Gurren hits, maybe. 5C pushes the opponent down towards the ground; 2C lifts them up. I use 2B, myself.

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why is it that after landing 5D most ppl do 2C > gurren instead of doing 5C > gurren? isnt 5C much easier to land and does more damage

Both are pretty bad. 2c -> Gurren fails on certain characters unless you delay the Gurren and 5c -> Gurren makes the following hop 5b (5d -> 5c -> Gurren -> HOP 5b -> J.5a -> J.5b -> JC -> J.2a -> J.5c if you're going for highest damage) very tight since the opponent is so low to the ground. You could always switch hop 5b with hop 5a, but then you're doing less damage than if you were using 2c instead of 5c. Oh and 5c -> Gurren whiffs on Platinum. That's probably a good reason not to use it, unless you want to remember that you have to switch to 2c every time you fight Platinum.

also is the 2x j.a > 2C followup after a gurren wallbounce character specific? i had a lot of trouble landing it against carl, think it only worked once. And is it better to do 2x j.a or j.a > j.b?

The J.5a -> J.5b Heavy Carry combos are not universal. Spark has said that they do not work on Rachel. I'm not too sure about what other characters they don't work on. Using J.5a -> J.5a makes it easier to do the combo. In your case, you're probably not delaying the first J.5a long enough.

I'd imagine they want the 2C to lift the up high enough so Gurren hits, maybe. 5C pushes the opponent down towards the ground; 2C lifts them up. I use 2B, myself.

I use it too since 2b -> Gurren is universal.

Edit: This post updated with weak starter damage values. I'm considering splitting it into two posts since I'm at the character limit and had to take out some comments (>_>) .

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If you're considering shortening the post, I'd cut out the spoiler tags myself, or at the least leave the first such instance of tags for each combo piece and cut out the rest.

If you want to keep those, then I don't mind moving around what I have on the second post to the third one, so we can have two full posts all for combos so we can have it all. Do two posts if you feel it's necessary, don't feel constrained by the limit!

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I like having all of the "Damage" and "Magatama Gained" values (as in the most recent version of the guide) but it needs to look cleaner. I do like the fact that combos in between sections are organized by the number of magatama used, however. Here's something of a format I would shoot for with the guide as it is:


Midscreen:

Without the corner, Hakumen does not deal much damage without spending precious magatama. The main focus of mid-screen combos should be corner carry as his big damage can be found in the corner.

  • (0) 6A > 3C [1164/0.3]
  • (0) CH 6A > j.2C > 3C [1574/0.6]
  • (0) CH 3C > 2B > 5A > j.A > j.B > JC > j.2A > j.C [2256/1]
  • (1) CH 3C > 2B > Gurren > Hop > Juggle [2556/1.5]
  • (1) CH 3C -> 2B -> Gurren -> IAD j.A -> j.B -> 2C -> j.2A -> AD j.2A -> j.C [2747/1.5]
  • (2) [starter] -> Dustloop [1831-3136/1.4]




    • I believe that the categories be "Midscreen/Midscreen to Corner/Corner" with the moves ordered by "Starting Move" and organize those combos with the number of "Magatama Used". It would look like the above example but 5A combos first, followed by 5A CH, 2A, 2A CH, etc.

    • What I would want to strive for is having a singular list of optimal combos organized by the magatama each uses and list the best combo for each starter using that said amount of magatama. If a combo is the most optimal for more than one starter in each level, then you would combine them in the first part of the combo and list the [DAMAGE/HEAT] for each one after. Other combos could be listed later in the post(s). I know this is a lofty goal but I'll put forth the most effort to make it easier.

    • To finish, I don't think that the spoiler tags or extra notes are needed. If anything, players have a glossary in the beginning of the guide for combo enders or other basic terms. In addition, a F.A.Q. can be put at the end to help with what most of the notes now could do. Thinning out what basics Hakumen players should know as well as anything that could be gone over easily later in the guide will help keep the combo list stay clean and precise.

    Thanks for reading.

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I noticed that there aren't any 1/2 star corner combos listed off a regular starter. What's the reason for this?

Which combos require a super jump j.2A after 2C? I tested it on the midscreen Enma -> Dustloop combo and discovered that I don't need to do it, but I guess I need to do it for the corner loop?

Thanks in advance.

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I noticed that there aren't any 1/2 star corner combos listed off a regular starter. What's the reason for this?

Which combos require a super jump j.2A after 2C? I tested it on the midscreen Enma -> Dustloop combo and discovered that I don't need to do it, but I guess I need to do it for the corner loop?

Thanks in advance.

I never really noticed that. I'm on it.

And sj.2A is required for multiple Corner Loop reps as you'll get pushed too far away or will not connect with the j.2A fast enough without it. Otherwise, you don't have to worry too much about super-jumping outside of that combo.

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  • I believe that the categories be "Midscreen/Midscreen to Corner/Corner" with the moves ordered by "Starting Move" and organize those combos with the number of "Magatama Used". It would look like the above example but 5A combos first, followed by 5A CH, 2A, 2A CH, etc.


    So you're saying to have 3 seperate sections for Midscreen, Midscreen to Corner, and Corner, right? Then you would organize the combos based on what starting move, then finally how much magatama is used, right? What's the factor that determines the order of the starting move? Should we go all the way up to 8 magatama combos for each starter? You also believe we should list every starter move, right? Is it really necessary to list every starter move? I'm not against it, I just don't know why we would.

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Whoa, lots got posted. I'll comment later.

For now, there are no optimal Zantetsu combos as there are better uses of mag. However, there are uses for Zantetsu (such as a conditioned overhead) so listing combos is valid, they just won't be optimal since Zantetsu itself is not. Just thought I'd point out that distinction.

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For now, there are no optimal Zantetsu combos as there are better uses of mag. However, there are uses for Zantetsu (such as a conditioned overhead) so listing combos is valid, they just won't be optimal since Zantetsu itself is not. Just thought I'd point out that distinction.

Since Zantetsu is not optimal but still has its uses, should I just make a section for it in the Other/Misc Combos section?

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Nah, you just treat it as a 3c CH and combo from there, except you can do 5c after it.

-----

I'm not sure about adding a "midscreen to corner" section. While it is valid that you should measure distance to corner, this isn't something mechanical. Much more useful, I think, would be to list a set of follow-up actions depending on distance and from which combo you're coming from (we could add the extra dimension of which starter was used, but that's too complicated!).

For example, you can do the following when leading into the corner:

- j.C -> 5c -> 3c

- AD j.2a -> j.2c -> 2c -> etc. [include corner loop here]

- [...] land -> [Hop] Gurren -> 2c -> etc.

- Etc.

So... it all depends, but I think it would greatly shorten such a section if we don't try to just list every variation for every combo because that would just be tedious. Besides, the basic idea is just to find a way to get into corner loop depending on your distance from the corner. The idea is fairly simple, so we shouldn't complicate it!

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Nah, you just treat it as a 3c CH and combo from there, except you can do 5c after it.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean I should list Zantetsu combos with the CH 3c combos as a different starter? I'm a bit hesitant to do that since they don't necessarily lead to the same combo (you can Gurren right after Zantetsu etc). Oh and 5c followup fails on Platinum making it not a universal combo, therefore making it (in my opinion) not optimal.

I think the way I have it right now, just re-organized to a new section would be fine. I have the general Midscreen to Corner strings listed at the beginning and at every section I refer the user back to them as well as list specific combos that aren't just the general Midscreen to Corner strings tacked on at the end.

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I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean I should list Zantetsu combos with the CH 3c combos as a different starter? I'm a bit hesitant to do that since they don't necessarily lead to the same combo (you can Gurren right after Zantetsu etc). Oh and 5c followup fails on Platinum making it not a universal combo, therefore making it (in my opinion) not optimal.

What Sophisticat is saying is that since zantetsu and 3c both give the same kind of knockdown you can think of them as the same starter in terms of what available combo paths there are + 5C. Keep in mind that it is still an inherently unoptimal use of 3 stars.

Also otg 5C guren will not work on lambda, as well as Platinum and I don't think its necessary to post every specials' name and command, either list all by name or all by command. People using the guide should be familiar with atleast that much about hakumen.

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What Sophisticat is saying is that since zantetsu and 3c both give the same kind of knockdown you can think of them as the same starter in terms of what available combo paths there are + 5C. Keep in mind that it is still an inherently unoptimal use of 3 stars.

I suppose it's similar, though you can Gurren right after Zantetsu instead of having to 2b -> Gurren.

Also otg 5C guren will not work on lambda, as well as Platinum

That probably means it won't work on Mu as well, oh dear.

I don't think its necessary to post every specials' name and command, either list all by name or all by command. People using the guide should be familiar with atleast that much about hakumen.

I suppose we can assume as much. I'll take them out. It'll certainly make it a bit cleaner.

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That format was what I was shooting for, Indigo. There will be a lot of combos to fill in, most of which probably won't be optimal in damage/heat but they may have sort of other advantages otherwise.

Zantetsu may not be the most optimal use for meter but it's a solid overhead. Having a list for optimal damage/heat combos is important, but all of that knowledge won't do anything if an opponent just blocks low. Zantetsu is that option that makes them fear doing only that (6B is nice but not as scary). Having combos using that as a starter would be a good addition to the list, maximizing the damage/heat/etc considering that factor only. Heck, if the opponent respects your pressure enough, you can do 2B and cancel with Zantetsu if it's block for some good Low/High Mix-up. Anyway, it's a great option in Hakumen's arsenal and it's should be considered when making a list of combos.

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That format was what I was shooting for, Indigo. There will be a lot of combos to fill in, most of which probably won't be optimal in damage/heat but they may have sort of other advantages otherwise.

Good to know, I'll get to work on it.

I really can't believe I forgot about it, seeing as how I use it reasonably often for the low/high mix-up (=_=; ) . I'm still not good enough to do the Hop Tsubaki combos yet.

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If you need any help, toss a section over to me and I'll code it.

Secondly, you're good enough probably. Hop Tsubaki combos are good, but not as necessary as you may think. Most of the time, I either do use Tsubaki to cancel j.B/air throw. Otherwise, I really hate the use of raw Hop Tsubaki outside of combos unless I think someone will run into it when they're dashing from the other side of the screen.

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Tsubaki is BOSS in the corner. Properly set up, it's one hell of an overhead. ~4.5k right off the bat without adding extra stars to the combo.

Midscreen is more iffy. It's good to slide them into the corner and catch them off-guard with an overhead, but I've never been consistent on the IAD -> j.2c right after since it's so tight. So in the corner it's always had it use as a fast and damaging OH, but it's lost some practical use mid-screen.

As for Zan, it should be considered in a list. Just saying that you can condense the list if you treat it like a 3c CH and add a couple lines explaining the differences.

Also, Schneider should be posting moar in this thread. I was impressed with your execution and you know the Haku combos better than I do. Get crackin'! :D

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Has anyone gotten IAD midscreen tsubaki combos down consistently yet?

It's possible for me(a mortal) do it like 75% of the time on CH, none of the time on regular hit. If I really need the damage, I'll hop ---> gurren and it'll pick them up no matter CH or regular hit. Was just wondering if the IAD variant is too hard to implement into real match consistently.

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Also, Schneider should be posting moar in this thread. I was impressed with your execution and you know the Haku combos better than I do. Get crackin'! :D

Almost all of my combos are from posts made here from ryokoalways with adjustments to compensate for my execution. So, I usually don't feel like I can contribute much to the forums.

Also to stay on topic, does NH tsubaki > hop > gurren lead into the typical 5A-6A-5A juggle? I would use that over IAD versions since it would be much more consistent.

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Yep, you just have to hop immediately after the tsubaki and buffer the gurren after the hop. The timing is strict but nowhere near as strict as the IAD follow up, that's for sure.

Whole combo goes Tsubaki --> quickly hop ---> immediately gurren, wallbounce ----> hop ----5a-6a-5a----> j.2a etc

It's harder to do on counter hit for me, not sure if it's because they slide further or what

What does NH stand for tho?

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