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Aginor

[CS2] Mu-12 vs Tsubaki

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Discuss the match up here.

The Good:

- Tsubaki can't follow up her 5b at max range

- Tsubaki really has to get in close in order to really do any damage. Even if she does, if Tsubaki makes a mistake, Mu can just DP and put Tsubaki full screen away again.

- Mu is good at keeping Tsubaki out with her tools. (5C, 2C, j.C, 236A, steins)

The Bad:

- Tsubaki's 5b has a really good hitbox

- She builds up a lot of charge in a very short amount of time. Watch out for her charge as she may use it for D DP and follow ups or just to get in or the 22d unblockable setup.

- Don't get predictable otherwise you can get CH'd by Tsubaki's 214X move series.

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A couple of questions:

What is the best course of action at full screen? When at full screen away, Tsubaki charges and it's hard to punish her at full screen. Steins take a while and explosions are fairly easy to see coming. Running in, I usually get a ram to the face. I have the most success at full 5c range. I know this shouldn't be a tough match up for Mu, but I'm still kinda sloppy. X_x

Also, her 22 series seems to beat all pokes when in range.

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A couple of points:

"- Tsubaki can't follow up her 5b at max range" is not strictly true. 5B CH can chain into 6C for big damage, normal 5B can be comboed in 22X (or 236D) series even at max range, giving knockdown, or fairly significant damage, with charge.

At full screen you may want to be airborne - Tsubaki doesn't really have options for engaging you in the air at that distance and it may give you time to place steins. It can become very difficult for Tsubaki to approach once you have enough steins out. You need to avoid being predictable, however, because if she can tell where you're going to land, and you don't have lasers to cover you, she can zip in with 236C/D for combo and pressure. Even if you block one of these, she'll be at advantage if the move was performed at fullscreen. Note, however, that neither move reaches the ENTIRE length of the screen, so if you're at a range where Hazama's chains and Lambda's swords won't reach, you're probably safe from a 236C/D too, though all it takes is for her to move forward a little to be in range, so don't get too comfy.

You are correct that you're probably going to be safest at 'mid range' - because her pressure is weaker there, but be wary of being predictable in general, because she's far from helpless even at that range.

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When at full screen away, Tsubaki charges and it's hard to punish her at full screen.

Reactively special cancel stein set into Origins if they chose to use their b/c attack dash at such a long range, same way you would shut down full screen Act Parser/Hell's Fang/Ice Car. If they wisen up and try and bait with whiff cancel into 22d, Origins should still hit her if you're using it properly. If they try and fake you out with a very short attack dash, origins doesn't have completely terrible recovery, and it's not in counterhit state, so don't worry about it too much.

Also, her 22 series seems to beat all pokes when in range.

Even the very fastest of these attacks is still 10f, and are therefore easily outsped by 2b and 5b. If you're contesting with those moves at a longer range, they are still slower than Mu's pokes, again with 22a being the fastest at 10f, so all the other versions get trashed by 5c. If they're catching you with 22a in neutral, do your best to dodge it, as it has a very long recovery at 30f. You really shouldn't be losing in a footsies game against her specials, Mu has multiple answers to every option, and strong ones at that.

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Been fighting Tsubaki a lot lately. All I can say, this matchup is either hell or okay depending on who gets momentum first. Like above people have said, you can't really zone her out for TOO long or she'll just build up charge or abuse the 236x series, or both. Her 5B has WAY more range then you would expect when you see it. I keep getting shocked at it's range...I try to toss out a 5C CH thinking I'm in a safe range but get beat out. Space REALLY carefully against her.

Get her in the corner and do NOT let her get out. I find if I can manage to push Tsubaki in a corner, I can keep her locked down pretty easily. But if she manages to escape and gets even one hit in it becomes a much harder fight.

Anyways, I have A LOT of trouble keeping my momentum in this matchup. I don't know how to approach her effectively. I can generally keep her out pretty okay, but just DP'ing over and over isn't netting me much damage. The Tsubaki I'm playing has also gotten wise to my airthrows and anti-air attempts, so she's stopped approaching from the air too frequently. She's also starting to bait my DP so I'm being cautious throwing it out now, and trying to avoid becoming too predictable.

So, how do I approach Tsubaki safely? Should I be using more Totsuka? (I probably don't use Totsuka often enough these days...) I don't wanna stay fullscreen too long because she'll just charge, but I also don't wanna mindlessly rush in and get hit in the face.

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Totsuka is great in this matchup, becuase she's a bit to quick on her feet to be hit by blank habakiris.

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"- Tsubaki can't follow up her 5b at max range" is not strictly true. 5B CH can chain into 6C for big damage, normal 5B can be comboed in 22X (or 236D) series even at max range, giving knockdown, or fairly significant damage, with charge.

Have fun hit confirming that!

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Have fun hit confirming that!

People do. It's not THAT hard if you understand spacing - basically, if you realize that you're outside of range for 5BB to hit, then you buffer a special into the 5B and then hit the button if your 5B connects.

Totsuka is a strong tool against Tsubaki - if you can get enough steins down, it can make it very hard for her to approach.

Most good Tsubaki's won't attack from the air that much - there are some confusing things she can do with her j.236 and j.214 specials to create some pretty ambiguous crossups but her basic j.C© stuff is pretty easily stuffed on reaction unless she's already got you in pressure and is using it as a Jin-style ghetto overhead.

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I definitely need to be using more totsuka then. I stopped using it as heavily after CS2 dropped to where I almost forgot about it. :3

Thanks for the tips guys.

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Okay I'm starting to rage at this matchup. She's so. Effin. Fast. I'm scared to put up even one stein lest she run up and knock me out of it. I try to stay airborne, super-jumping over her shit to get out some steins/totsuka but she's on me in a split second after that. I have to keep resetting the momentum over and over. Even if I get that laser out she of course just blocks it and I run in for a little pressure, hope she gets hit..if she doesn't and blocks my pressure I have to hope I can move away safely and it's back to playing run the hell away from the blind bitch until I can force her to block again. But at the same time I'm afraid to NOT do anything lest I let her build up all the charge she damn well pleases and use it to destroy me in two mistakes.

It's frustrating to only mess up once or twice and die for it, yet mid screen if she messes up I don't get anywhere NEAR the payoff she does. ;[ I can NOT seem to keep that annoying girl in the corner at all.

Also her 5B hitbox is still stupid. o.<;

Edit:

Okay after more matches it feels pretty even. You can't really "zone" her traditionally, but yeah 5C is gdlk in this matchup for keeping her from rushing in senselessly. 5C is like a frame slowly than her 5B but it's range is way better so it shuts that down. It's not a good idea to flat out zone her because she'll just try to charge. You wanna stay on her but not too close, staying out of her 5B range. It's good to stay in the air, throw out lots of Steins, Totsuka and Habaya.

A smart Tsubaki won't challenge you in the air. If she does j.C dat shit, it beats out her everything. A smart Tsubaki won't approach you from the air often either, it's begging to get a 2C anti-air to the face. I found by trying to force her to come to me, while still always staying around or a little farther 5C max range was pretty good. Super jumping into steins then air-dash into more steins/habaya right over a Tsubaki who's running at you is also useful. (And fun. :3)

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Getting used to this match up still, but a couple of things I've discovered:

When Tsubaki's approaching from the ground, look out for her 214 series. It's upper invincible and will go through most of your projectiles. Throwing out the occasional 2b or 3c could keep her away. Play footsides carefully. Totsuka is amazing, but if you can predict one of her ramming moves, habakiri can net you a good chunk of damage. Just my 2 cents.

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Tsubaki's ability to punish you from fullscreen is the most annoying part of this matchup to me. Oh yeah, and her stupid 5B.

Seems like most of Mu's matchups consist of "get the momentum and keep it going or die". One wiffed/baited DP and Mu is in the corner getting dat ass waxed. Tsubaki has a pretty decent AA as well (although that shouldn't worry mu all that much).

Arrows is always amazing for buying some time for steins, although i cannot remember if it snuffs her fullscreen special attempts. I usually either go with touska to get a safe approach, but if i find the tsubaki is especially dash happy, setting some 5D's between us and haba is wonderful damage if you manage to get it off.

But boy, setting steins anytime but when shes 1) on her face or 2) getting combo'd pretty much insures she'll be in your face by the time you're finished/hit the ground.

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Staying in the air is REALLY good against her I find... If you super jump, and start setting steins from as high up as you can get you're actually out of reach of her anti air. If she tries to rush in while you're doing it dash over her head, set up another stein and toss out Habaya to prevent her from rushing in. I find this matchup is definitely best played at 5C range and while airborne. The only real threat you take in the air is getting air thrown by her. Other than that she would be dumb to be in the air versus you. I spam the shit out of Totsuka in this match. It keeps her in check and forces her to stay blocking. I set it out when I get time then while she blocks that I'll set up even more and then toss out Habaya.

You really wanna make her come to you. Tsubaki has NO CHOICE but to rush at you eventually because her range is pretty much terrible on everything but 5B. You really wanna keep her locked down till she messes up. And she will eventually. A dumb Tsubaki who rushes in senselessly will eat a 5C to the face if she's not careful.

Anyways, don't get your DP baited. The Tsubaki I play LOVES to do this to me, but I've managed to stop falling for this one. Don't be scared of Tsubaki's pressure. Don't respect it too much. I just wait it out really...since her only real overhead is her 6A and thats stupidly easy to react to. Learn what that move looks like and IB it. It's a pretty bad move and you can punish her for it even on normal block iirc. Although I THINK she can cancel it to make it safe, I'm not sure. I usually just block it and move away though. Edit: Yeah, I was right she can cancel it and CH you out of any punish attempts. So yeah just wait it out. I find it's not too hard to block her stuff.

Anyways this matchup isn't too bad once you get a feel for your spacing. If you get those first steins out Tsubaki is gonna have a real hard time getting close to you.

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Don't EVEN TRY to punish 6A, instant block or not. Any smart Tsubaki will gatling from it into 5C, which makes it safe and will result in you taking a CH that will lead into a very ugly combo. You have to ride out at least the 6A>5C>5CC before you even really have an option to do anything.

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Don't EVEN TRY to punish 6A, instant block or not. Any smart Tsubaki will gatling from it into 5C, which makes it safe and will result in you taking a CH that will lead into a very ugly combo. You have to ride out at least the 6A>5C>5CC before you even really have an option to do anything.

There you go, thats the cancel I was thinking of. I always wait it out anyways.

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It's important to know that you do have another option after the 6a, that being IB DP. Because Tsubaki's 6a is -7, it becomes -10 on IB, therefore punishable in the recovery by Mu's 10f DP if Tsubaki decides to block. If Tsubaki decides to chain into any attack after 6a, she will lost to Origins.

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I love origins. So long as you don't get it baited it gets you outta so much. Plus is just looks badass. While playing casuals last week a guy who was watching who doesn't play BB had to comment "Jesus the hitbox on that diamond is crazy, holy crap!"

But yeah, I'll definitely start IB DP'ing her 6A when I see it coming now.

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Yea IB DP > Tsubaki. That and j.c, 236a, and 5c. She can't really do much about those. And once you have steins out, it's kind of downhill for Tsubaki.

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Origins hitbox makes me sad... I wish it was a real diamond instead of a pyramid.

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It's important to know that you do have another option after the 6a, that being IB DP. Because Tsubaki's 6a is -7, it becomes -10 on IB, therefore punishable in the recovery by Mu's 10f DP if Tsubaki decides to block. If Tsubaki decides to chain into any attack after 6a, she will lost to Origins.

It doesn't work like that at all; It's not -7 on block if it's cancelled - that I guarantee, because by cancelling, you are cancelling the recovery. Also, I don't think IB > DP works on 6A > 5C. The DP shouldn't even come out, because you should still be in blockstun when the 5C hits, even on IB.

6A is a level 4 attack with 2 active frames. That means when you IB it, you are in blockstun for 15 frames (Level 4 attack is 18 frames blockstun, -3 for IB). One of those frames is consumed by the other active frame in 6A (14 frames left) and then 5C has 13 frames of startup - which means it connects while you still have 1 frame of blockstun left. There are definitely places where you can IB > DP against Tsubaki (2B > 2BB or 5CC > 6B for example) but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them.

Of course, if people say that this DOES work, I'll take your word for it and go back to the chalkboard. A whole lot of our understanding of how this stuff works is based on using what can be established as true in the game and trying to fit the theory to reality.

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Bro, what I'm saying is that she cannot BAIT the dp after 6a. 6a is -7 if it's not cancelled, and the recovery is punishable, similar to Bang's 5d. if she does cancel, the DP gets in the existing gap, then obliterates the move she cancelled into if she staggered the string to catch mashers.

Also, that's not how active frames work. If a move has more than one active frame, then the blockstun will reapply itself with every active frame, effectively meaning that the blockstun of the attack does not begin to deteriorate until the active frames end.

6a > 5c is indeed gapless, however 5c is also very minus on hit, with the followup being even more minus, Tsubaki has no way to make a string safe after 6a and is forced to take more and more risks, at best she can special cancel into 22d and force you to block it, but that expends a valuable stock and doesn't give her any mixup, which is a trade in Mu's favor.

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Bro, what I'm saying is that she cannot BAIT the dp after 6a. 6a is -7 if it's not cancelled, and the recovery is punishable, similar to Bang's 5d. if she does cancel, the DP gets in the existing gap, then obliterates the move she cancelled into if she staggered the string to catch mashers.

Well, actually, she could probably cancel into a 214X attack, but since Origins is active for so long, it's a bit of a crapshoot. I'm not actually sure what what would happen if you IB'd though - she'd be at -10, but Origins doesn't HIT until frame 10, so she might be able to block it. Mostly though, she'd be stupid to not just use the airtight 6A>5C gatling, because she has a ton of options after that.

Also, that's not how active frames work. If a move has more than one active frame, then the blockstun will reapply itself with every active frame, effectively meaning that the blockstun of the attack does not begin to deteriorate until the active frames end.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong; A move that hits only once doesn't 'rehit' on subsequent active frames. If it did, moves with a lot of active frames wouldn't be negative the way they are - for example, you have Tsubaki's 236C - it has 22 frames of blockstun, 10 active frames and 18 frames of recovery. If the blockstun was refreshed after every active frame, it would be +4 every time it hit. Instead, it's listed as -5, because if it hits on its first active frame, Tsubaki has to go through the other 9 active frames while the blockstun counter is running.

6a > 5c is indeed gapless, however 5c is also very minus on hit, with the followup being even more minus, Tsubaki has no way to make a string safe after 6a and is forced to take more and more risks, at best she can special cancel into 22d and force you to block it, but that expends a valuable stock and doesn't give her any mixup, which is a trade in Mu's favor.

This is also not really true. Tsubaki charge cancel 5C or 5CC to be at -2 (-5 on IB) which is fine for baiting a DP, because origins doesn't actually hit until frame 10. Heck, 5C recovers fast enough to bait a DP all by itself, since it's only -7 unless you IB (and that'd be a VERY near thing.). The entire act of doing a "reversal" DP is based on them continuing their string and therefore whiffing due to the invulnerability on the DP. So Tsubaki can do 6A > 5C > 5CC charge cancel and essentially reset to neutral. You'll have a very slight advantage if she guesses wrong, but it's certainly not "taking more and more risks"; Additionally, if she DOES use 22D to make it safe, she's at +3 and can dash in to reset pressure with 2A. Even if she doesn't have stock, she can do 5CC > 6B (There's a gap here, so it can be DP'd, but if she just charge cancelled instead, you could be in for a lot of hurt as a result, so it's not 'free'.) which leaves her at +1, or she can do 5CC > 22C (Also a gap but leaves her at +1 and breaks a primer) or 214C, which will be invulnerable to your DP by the time it hits (large gap, could theoretically be jabbed with 2A). So essentially, a good Tsubaki has enough options here - particularly charge cancel - that you really don't want to just mash IB > DP unless you really think she's inexplicably trying to bait you pushing buttons in a very dangerous way.

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It's important to know that you do have another option after the 6a, that being IB DP. Because Tsubaki's 6a is -7, it becomes -10 on IB, therefore punishable in the recovery by Mu's 10f DP if Tsubaki decides to block. If Tsubaki decides to chain into any attack after 6a, she will lost to Origins.

6A-5CC is very tight. You can't IB-DP this string, or maybe you can, but if so, it's extremely difficult.

You can IB-DP Tsubaki in between her 2BB and 5BB.

IMO though, you're better off blocking and reacting to overheads..there's not much mind game mixup she can do without stock.

Edit: Although I consider that Mu can get Tsubaki away from her and setup more steins and stuff to make Tsubaki's approach game difficult. I think I see one reason why Tsubaki players may want to bait the DP....

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I'm not actually sure what what would happen if you IB'd though - she'd be at -10, but Origins doesn't HIT until frame 10, so she might be able to block it.

There's no question about it, Tsubaki would lose straight in that instance, with the application of Advanced Input hitting an effective 5f punish window is far from challenging.

Mostly though, she'd be stupid to not just use the airtight 6A>5C gatling, because she has a ton of options after that.

Makoto also has an airtight string via 6b > 5c and 5c > 5cc, yet powerful Makoto players stagger that string all the time, because while it may be vunerable to DP, it leads to huge damage on CH, favoring the stagger option when it comes to weighing the risk/reward. Tsubaki has a similar mechanic that can easily be applied in the same way. It's not necessarily VIABLE to DP in this gap, but as I stated earlier, it's important to know that you do indeed have the option to.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong; A move that hits only once doesn't 'rehit' on subsequent active frames. If it did, moves with a lot of active frames wouldn't be negative the way they are - for example, you have Tsubaki's 236C - it has 22 frames of blockstun, 10 active frames and 18 frames of recovery. If the blockstun was refreshed after every active frame, it would be +4 every time it hit. Instead, it's listed as -5, because if it hits on its first active frame, Tsubaki has to go through the other 9 active frames while the blockstun counter is running.

This is more applicable to moves that have a huge window of active frames, Tsubaki's 236 series being a rather unique case in that, for the vast majority of moves in BB, the previous explanation is very applicable. I provided a simplified exegesis of how the recovery system works in BB, but more specifically after the first active frame that connects, the rest of the active frames become additional, added recovery frames. Tsubaki's 236c, hitting on the very last active frame, would retain it's 22 frames of blockstun, but only have 19 frames remaining of recovery, effectively making it +3, the frame advantage calculations in the frame data is based off the closest possible 236c, hitting on active frame one.

This may have been what you meant earlier, but I've never heard it explained in the manner you did, but ^that is how the BB engine works.

This is also not really true. Tsubaki charge cancel 5C or 5CC to be at -2 (-5 on IB) which is fine for baiting a DP, because origins doesn't actually hit until frame 10. Heck, 5C recovers fast enough to bait a DP all by itself, since it's only -7 unless you IB (and that'd be a VERY near thing.). The entire act of doing a "reversal" DP is based on them continuing their string and therefore whiffing due to the invulnerability on the DP. So Tsubaki can do 6A > 5C > 5CC charge cancel and essentially reset to neutral.

I think you're missing my point, if you DP even once in a blockstring, Tsubaki has to consider the possibility of baiting it. Because Tsubaki lacks the presence of a resource free, late gatling, a good example being Hazama 6b or Ragna 2c, she is forced to end her pressure in a disadvantageous way in order to bait it. Charge cancelling ends her pressure completely, she's minus. Of course you wouldn't be mashing DP after every normal in a blockstring, that's just not realistic. Proper application of buffering the input then activating the special on reaction to the additional normal is the appropriate way to approach the situation.

All of Tsubaki's options to bait the dp let her opponent out for free, or expend a valuable resource such as heat or stocks. Therefore, if you're smart with your DP and wary of her pressure, you can capitalize on their hesitation to pressure you by jumping out, jabbing, or whatever the most applicable choice would be.

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