[CS2] Tsubaki vs Ragna

[Ginseng]

Discuss the Tsubaki vs Ragna matchup here.

Things to watch out for:

5B

INFERNO DIVIDAH!

6A

j.C, j.B crossup

TK Gauntlet hades for overhead

Pretty good normals that may leave you blocking for awhile.

2B to 6B gatling

Things you can use:

5B

Patience and blocking.

[diospyros]

I'm still having trouble on this matchup. This aggressive Ragna player consistently used 5B and dead spike on pressure. Every time I use 5B, it seems to always trade, and I can't seem to time 2c when he jumps. Any suggestions?

[Kiba]

Ginseng Its more like we do more damage than him now, lol. Also the majority of his normals are unsafe.

In this matchup tbh I rely more on spacing and getting in with 236C/D. 5B tends to get stuffed or traded with his 5B/5C which is why I avoid it. If the Ragna player is jumping and you can't net 2C, depending on the height of the jump you can either run underneath him if you want to feel safer to get a few more stocks in, or you could jump and grab him.

I usually tend to DP him out of any gatling he does which has a gap, like 3C - deadspike, but that's just me taking a big risk. I also throw him out of his overhead but that's on reaction and it's usually just me guessing. You may find yourself in the corner quite often and unless you do something about you're gonna end up staying there for a while and/or you'll eventually get hit.

[Ginseng]

Oh I copy pasted so don't worry about that. I'm really lazy if you haven't noticed .

[diospyros]

Thanks Kiba. I knew I can count on you.

[Dusk Thanatos]

IT really feels like the major change here is that we do real damage now.

Otherwise, I think Ragna can still outspace Tsubaki for free. Anybody got the EXP to confirm/deny?

[BatousaiJ]

Played enough against giga and SKD to be able to say yes to the outspacing thing.

The trick with tackling Ragna's pressure is to spot his openings and go-to gatlings.

I'd agree with Kiba with the preference of 236C/D approach. Good players will catch onto this and will use double jumps and IAD backwards to control space so just anticipate his end spot in his movements before throwing out your 236x moves. Ragna's jumping attacks are free to 2C anti air option so stay grounded and don't jump around too much as his j.C will shit all over your j.C from a mile away.

Also, Ragna can close the distance quite easily so don't take too much risk in charging when you don't have that knockaway and etc.

Ragna can also inferrrrna divida out of a ton of your blockstring options including transition into 6B and 6A so be wary of that and once you start to spot them doing so, go for frame traps with the 22x attacks or charge cancel into immediate block to follow up with a punish.

Getting caught in the corner against Ragna is bad news, you can't 214D out of deadspike pressure as it has feet attribute but you can DP out of the gap before dead spike but watch the distance as if you they space it correct, you'll whiff and just get hit.

[pktazn]

Just wanted to add from my experience playing against Jourdal's Ragna to be wary of your primers as well when he's got you in his blockstring. He ate through my primers faster than I thought he would and I got guard broken a couple of times because I stopped paying attention.

[Amadeous]

Just wanted to add from my experience playing against Jourdal's Ragna to be wary of your primers as well when he's got you in his blockstring. He ate through my primers faster than I thought he would and I got guard broken a couple of times because I stopped paying attention.

Ooooh yeah I'd like to vouch for that. I've fought DI0's Ragna essentially without bursting because if I do I'm going to get guard broken, no questions asked. I'd say if you do burst you've got to get the momentum back from it so make it count, but that should always be true off of a burst.

[Airk]

This is another of those matches where counter assault is your friend. Overall, Ragna is pretty easy to block, but not so easy to get out of the pressure on, so counter assault early before you have too much time to mess up.

You can't frametrap Inferno Divider with 22X - trying to do so will get you hit. On the other hand, you can bait ID ALL DAY with 214D (and, carefully, with 214B and C). Anytime you get to a point in your blockstring where he likes to ID, just throw that in there.

You can also get a lot mileage out of D-cancelling 236C into 214D when he thinks he's being all clever by jumping.

He doesn't win spacing "for free" but he does make you fight for it in ways that you generally won't have to against a lot of other characters. Like most characters, his list of moves with foot attribute is small, they tend to have short range, and aren't generally go-to moves, so there's a lot of room for hitting him with 214 series. It may also be worth learning to use 214X as an anti-air, because there is literally nothing he can pull out in the air that will beat the invulnerability frames.

Ragna is also dependant on a lot of short-dash nonsense to maintain pressure, so it really comes down to mindgames on both sides.

Very even matchup, IMHO.

[Dusk Thanatos]

He doesn't win spacing "for free" but he does make you fight for it in ways that you generally won't have to against a lot of other characters.

Spaced Ragna 5B>Tsubaki 5b

Spaced Ragna 5c>all Tsubaki normals

Spaced Ragna j.C>2C

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

[Airk]

But 214X beats out all of those, charge free. If Ragna is flailing around trying to control space, it's up to you to remind him that he can't do that. You have the tools to make him respect you. Once he's throwing out random 2Bs and 6Cs in an effort to keep from getting yet another CH 214B, the spacing game changes a lot. Yes, you'll lose trying to play 'normals footsie' with him, so don't play that.

[BatousaiJ]

Depending on 214x for footsies is a very, very bad idea.

It's something you want to throw out once in a while just to let your opponent know you have the option so that they can be afraid of it and try to bait it. Other wise, it's extremely easy to space and make it whiff. Even on block it's - so don't use your 214 options in excess especially if you don't have charge to cancel into 22D as an option.

[Airk]

Hrm, I hadn't noticed that Ragna has a 5 frame jab. That means it's THEORETICALLY possible for him to punish 214X. Maybe. but I doubt it.

Once you're in 'poke' range, it's not really possible to jump out of the way or counter these on reaction - except with 2A, and you have to be pretty speedy even for that, since 214B is faster than our overhead. :P

I'm not proposing that you just spam these moves around, but I think they're going to be crucial against Ragna because they beat all of his traditional spacing tools and force him to start playing with moves that you can beat with your normals.

Of course, ideally, you're not going to be playing midrange footsies, because Tsubaki isn't very good at them, but this matchup is by no means "Ragna wins spacing for free".

[Dusk Thanatos]

214x isn't Noel Drive. >_>

[Airk]

No, it's not. It's not nearly as punishable.

Really though, I think Ragna has two advantages here and neither of them are in the footsies space. #1 is that a good Ragna has relentless pressure that is hard to get out of. This is nothing much to do with his spacing. It'll take a lot of experience and a deft hand with the DP to slow this down. The other advantage is that, like most of the cast, he beats Tsubaki in the air, and it can be very hard to anti-air him effectively. There's not much of an answer for this except mixing up your anti-air game, since relying on 2C isn't sufficient.

Edit: Oh yeah. And Inferno Divider is way nicer than 623X, so he has an easier time breaking out of our pressure than we do out of his.

[pktazn]

I'm pretty sure I was punished for trying to use 214x against Jourdal a couple of times but I have to watch replays again to remember exactly what was going on.

Also in one of our matches I found that Inferno Divider can clash with our 5A. I lost out each time though since I was surprised it even happened haha.

[Airk]

Clashes are funny. Technically I think almost any pair of moves can clash with the right spacing - I think it happens when a move's hitbox overlaps another move's hitbox, with neither hitbox contacting a hittable box. So any two moves that have hitboxes that extend beyond their hittable boxes should theoretically be able to clash. Which reminds me... <goes to post in Hazama thread>

[Kiba]

I have a problem.

Ragna does 214B - 214D and I try to DP the 214D with 623D but I'm always getting hit out of it. What's the problem here? Is Tsubaki's DP that bad or am I doing something wrong?

[Dusk Thanatos]

I think the invul on 623D wears off really quick once you're off the ground, if it isn't gone completely by then.

Try 623B instead. It has invul in the middle of the DP, instead of the beginning, so it might work on this.

EDIT: 623D is in the air starting on f10, same frame the invul wears off.

623B is in the air from f8, and the invul starts on f11 and ends on f18.

[Errol]

Maybe you are just getting hit because your DP is missing, because it kinda doesn't cover that area just in front/above you?

623B invuln is slow, I think you would trade if they did it fast. It would at least trade, not sure that's desirable though

[Airk]

Others basically have it. Try 623B. 623D is a fine reversal for extremely small gaps, but if you're trying to intercept something that leaves you more time, 623B is the tool you want.

[Eshi]

Ragna has always really annoyed me. You just can't back dash against this fucker, he has too many ways to punish it (5B and Dead Spike being the main ones). However if one is good at instant blocking then Ragna should never connect with dead spike in a block string, I'm pretty sure everything has a large enough hole to be punished by 5B on reaction.

[HajinShinobi]

So apparently Tsubaki's 236C counter hits Ragna's Carnage Scissors on it's startup animation (once Ragna is beginning to dash), which happened by accident earlier today in some casuals against a friend of mine. I was using 236C to close some distance and he did CS randomly (probably out of frustration) and he got CH'd.

Went to training mode and messed with this, 236D will CH it too.

It's definitely not something I'd try and do in matches or anything but I'd thought I'd just throw that out there, yeah..

[Dusk Thanatos]

Yeah, the invul on Carnage Scissors is pretty atrocious. It's mostly for combos/gimmicks.