[CS2] Tsubaki vs Lambda

[Ginseng]

Discuss the Tsubaki vs Lambda matchup here.

Things to watch out for:

Zoning.

Act pulsar mixups(low, dash in throw, etc.)

Guard crushes, lambda is good at guard crushing.

Spike chaser corner lockdown.

AIR THROW

Lambda's gravity field DP

Things you can use:

236x and j214x to get in.

[Airk]

Gravity field DP is no longer really an issue since it lost invulnerability. It's mostly a combo/zoning tool for her now.

[iora]

214 series projectile (is it only projectile? I think it is) invul is fun here. My friend was doing "Big spikes from ground special" into a few swords into Act Pulsar (the guard crush one usually)

If you 214B after whatever he does, but before the Act Pulsar, the Pulsars hit thing whiffs and you get CH. He was doing other shit too, but if i did 214B or D before he did Act Pulsar (guard crush one at a minimum, maybe the others) I won every time. Gotta be fast.

236 series seems fast enough on reaction to beat the "Spikes out of ground special"

214 BCD have enough projectile invul to go through "Spikes out of ground special" entirely, timed right. Not sure how safe this is.

I had a little success using 3C sparingly to stay in too.

Take all of that with a grain of salt. I am not the best player. -_-

[Airk]

Lambda is an interesting matchup for the 214 stuff; As you say, 214 series hill go through Spike Chaser, even though it looks like it shouldn't (Inexplicably, the huge spikes rising up from the ground don't have 'foot' property) but it WON'T go through Sickle Storm (The spinning blade on the ground that everyone thinks hits low, but doesn't.)

Similarly, you can beat out Act Parser Zwei: Cavalier (The mid hitting rush that wallbounces for a combo) but NOT Act Parser Zwei: Blade (The low hitting one). Cavalier isn't really something they should be throwing out randomly, but it has a big chunk of startup (30 frames) so it should be beatable on reaction (barely) with 214A/B/D or on anticipation with C. Not sure how the timing will work out with opponents trying to do Act Parser Zwei > Throw

Honestly, I haven't faced many decent Lambdas since BBCS2, so I don't have much to add, except that with the loss of invulnerability on Gravity Field, they are much more likely to try for a Calamity Sword on wakeup.

[BatousaiJ]

This match up is really all about patience and proper use of 236C(prediction + timing) to get in.

Once you're in, she's got no reversible unless she spends 50 heat for her DD so if you've got a lambchops cornered with no heat, go buck wild and do whatever you want to her. When she has the heat, they'll usually go for DD or a CA so try to bait out the former(don't forget that it's a overhead, don't try to block it low) and stay in her face.

This is one match up where if you have to choose between being in their face and getting some charge, you choose the former everytime(same thing with Arakune). You can kill people chargeless with relative ease now. Once you get in, don't let them go without having them pay for it either with a burst or with 50 heat.

As stated before, you can bust out of corner spike chaster lock down with 214D which is always fun to do just make sure you've got the timing down on it as getting CH by spike chaser = big damage.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Worth noting -- against Lambdas that like to backdash on wakeup, shield rush wins /every time/.

Enjoy your free combo against Lambdas that want neutral too much~

[Airk]

I get the distinct feeling that this match leans somewhat in Tsubaki's favor. 214X is extremely strong here, and 236C will punish just about any D move other than 5D, which means Lambda has to be very careful about trying to guess where you're going to be.

You're right about the 236 beating backdash too - she's only got 5 invulnerability frames, which is way less than 236X is active for, and she's grounded the whole time, so no annoying 'pop up' on non-D versions.

[Fallacy]

Yeah I use to think it was tsubaki's favor easy. But after playing some better lamdas who can lockdown better I'm not so sure. maybe 5.5 for tsubaki or 5-5

[Errol]

Match　up chart from Japan says 5.5 in Lambda's favor.FYI.

[Airk]

That Japanese matchup chart has some pretty screwy numbers in it though, so I wouldn't really take it as too canon.

Played several matches against a pretty good Lambda last night. Got blown up a lot, but never felt like it was the character - just felt like I was being outplayed.

[EdWORLD]

I found that double jumping towards lambda's is usually the best approach, but I would still watch out for her ram move that hits people out of the air (I believe it's 236C?). I've also noticed that smart Lambda's will use gravity seed before abusing Spike Chaser (which renders 214D useless). Match up doesn't feel even to me at all, it's mostly a guessing game with 236C and j.214C and getting in, except Lambda controls 95% of the screen. Bleh.

[Airk]

They can't exactly use gravity seed before spike chaser all the time, since the move has a cooldown period. And using it will lock Lambda out of a lot of her good combos.

The thing is that it breaks out like this (Once you're inside 'full screen' range, since neither 236C nor Lambda D reaches there - complete fullscreen is almost free charge as long as you watch for 4D). Lambda has to either work entirely on reaction - which is VERY hard, since 5D has 15 frames of startup, and it's no easy task to stuff 236C with it on reaction - or she has to commit to 5D to control the space in between you and her, in which case you get a free jump in over 5D and you get closer. Spike Chaser and Sickle Storm can't be thrown out at full screen either, because they have tons of startup, so you can either dash>Barrier, or jump>barrier if you're not fast enough to 236 it. This forces Lambda airborne, and reduces her options, because she has no lows, no moves that will beat 214X, and all her airborne specials/drives have landing recovery, so if you can maneuver into an appropriate position from there, you've got her. With patience, it's very hard for her to zone you out, so long as you don't get predictable. Once you're in, it's very much in your favor. The only time this match gets ugly is when Lambda scores a knockdown, which lets her set up all kinds of stuff.

[EdWORLD]

They can't exactly use gravity seed before spike chaser all the time, since the move has a cooldown period. And using it will lock Lambda out of a lot of her good combos.

The thing is that it breaks out like this (Once you're inside 'full screen' range, since neither 236C nor Lambda D reaches there - complete fullscreen is almost free charge as long as you watch for 4D). Lambda has to either work entirely on reaction - which is VERY hard, since 5D has 15 frames of startup, and it's no easy task to stuff 236C with it on reaction - or she has to commit to 5D to control the space in between you and her, in which case you get a free jump in over 5D and you get closer. Spike Chaser and Sickle Storm can't be thrown out at full screen either, because they have tons of startup, so you can either dash>Barrier, or jump>barrier if you're not fast enough to 236 it. This forces Lambda airborne, and reduces her options, because she has no lows, no moves that will beat 214X, and all her airborne specials/drives have landing recovery, so if you can maneuver into an appropriate position from there, you've got her. With patience, it's very hard for her to zone you out, so long as you don't get predictable. Once you're in, it's very much in your favor. The only time this match gets ugly is when Lambda scores a knockdown, which lets her set up all kinds of stuff.

4D in itself gives me enough trouble when they're zoning from full screen. I literally have to press D, block, press D again, then block. They also have that circular blade that comes our of the ground that stops any type of charging.

What's the CD on Gravity Seed?

[Fallacy]

Timewise idk, but it has a meter that comes up.

[Airk]

Timewise idk, but it has a meter that comes up.

16.5 seconds, or 11 seconds if the move hits. (I assume that means the damage dealing part, not the field.) Assuming 60 FPS.

If you are having problems with 4D and the "circular blade" (236D, aka "Sickle Storm") then you need to learn to recognize the startup of both moves, and keep an eye on Lambda; 4D has 30 frames of startup, which is more than enough to scoot forward by any of several methods and make it whiff. Sickle Storm is 38 frames of startup - 44 if you want the back-to-front version (which, I believe, is the only version that hits at full screen distance). No Lambda should be throwing that out randomly at full screen, because it's a huge invite for you to to airdash in for a beatdown. The trick is that you have no NOT block this stuff. If Lambda is doing random crap from fullscreen, you have to take that opportunity to close in, because once you start blocking stuff like Sickle Storm, you're locked down for a week. (4D is actually -11 on block and 4DD is -18 though, so, after blocking that, do something, she has to special cancel or be heftily negative.)

[EdWORLD]

16.5 seconds, or 11 seconds if the move hits. (I assume that means the damage dealing part, not the field.) Assuming 60 FPS.

If you are having problems with 4D and the "circular blade" (236D, aka "Sickle Storm") then you need to learn to recognize the startup of both moves, and keep an eye on Lambda; 4D has 30 frames of startup, which is more than enough to scoot forward by any of several methods and make it whiff. Sickle Storm is 38 frames of startup - 44 if you want the back-to-front version (which, I believe, is the only version that hits at full screen distance). No Lambda should be throwing that out randomly at full screen, because it's a huge invite for you to to airdash in for a beatdown. The trick is that you have no NOT block this stuff. If Lambda is doing random crap from fullscreen, you have to take that opportunity to close in, because once you start blocking stuff like Sickle Storm, you're locked down for a week. (4D is actually -11 on block and 4DD is -18 though, so, after blocking that, do something, she has to special cancel or be heftily negative.)

will try this.

[toanenadiz]

They can't exactly use gravity seed before spike chaser all the time, since the move has a cooldown period. And using it will lock Lambda out of a lot of her good combos.

The thing is that it breaks out like this (Once you're inside 'full screen' range, since neither 236C nor Lambda D reaches there - complete fullscreen is almost free charge as long as you watch for 4D). Lambda has to either work entirely on reaction - which is VERY hard, since 5D has 15 frames of startup, and it's no easy task to stuff 236C with it on reaction - or she has to commit to 5D to control the space in between you and her, in which case you get a free jump in over 5D and you get closer. Spike Chaser and Sickle Storm can't be thrown out at full screen either, because they have tons of startup, so you can either dash>Barrier, or jump>barrier if you're not fast enough to 236 it. This forces Lambda airborne, and reduces her options, because she has no lows, no moves that will beat 214X, and all her airborne specials/drives have landing recovery, so if you can maneuver into an appropriate position from there, you've got her. With patience, it's very hard for her to zone you out, so long as you don't get predictable. Once you're in, it's very much in your favor. The only time this match gets ugly is when Lambda scores a knockdown, which lets her set up all kinds of stuff.

Lambda doesn't need to use 5D to stop 236C. Lambda's 3C can be used to beat it out on reaction easier.

I understand why 236D can't be thrown out full screen but there isn't a reason why she wouldn't thrown out 214D, since Tsubaki can't really punish it full screen without yomi. Dash->barrier gets you closer but you lose a primer and Lambda can easily move into a better position for her. Jumping it gives Lambda access to her AA swords and lets her move unhindered on the ground, which is what she wants. What you are saying isn't really incorrect but your options wouldn't really scare the Lambda into stopping her from using it full screen. Now if you were charging full screen instead, that would probably stop her from using it.

And Lambda can just dash forward and 5D to CH you out of your charge if you do it full screen and too predictably.

[Airk]

Lambda doesn't need to use 5D to stop 236C. Lambda's 3C can be used to beat it out on reaction easier.

I understand why 236D can't be thrown out full screen but there isn't a reason why she wouldn't thrown out 214D, since Tsubaki can't really punish it full screen without yomi. Dash->barrier gets you closer but you lose a primer and Lambda can easily move into a better position for her. Jumping it gives Lambda access to her AA swords and lets her move unhindered on the ground, which is what she wants. What you are saying isn't really incorrect but your options wouldn't really scare the Lambda into stopping her from using it full screen. Now if you were charging full screen instead, that would probably stop her from using it.

And Lambda can just dash forward and 5D to CH you out of your charge if you do it full screen and too predictably.

I've never seen a Lambda player try to use 3C against 236C, so I dunno. Sounds kinda risky. Also, if they start doing this, you can try to bait it by doing 236A or B instead, which will move you closer without putting you in range of 3C.

Lambda's 214D isn't really much faster to come out than 214D - it's 35 frames of startup...and doesn't even reach full screen, so if you're at max range, it's irrelevant, and she can do it all she wants. If she wants to do the version that reaches the entire length of the screen, it's 63 frames of startup. There's room for some mindgames here on their part, where they can do the 'short' version in an effort to try to bait you into attacking, but it's not really that threatening.

At full screen, as long as you can react to 4D and 236D~C, you're fine. You don't lose anything for having to jump and block, since you can't get any further away anyway.

At "not quite full screen", Lambda basically can't throw stuff out, because 5D can be jump>barriered on reaction, 214D and 236D can be 236C'd on reaction, and any other sort of "guessing" with swords leaves her open to a 236C punish. She has to jump, or bait you into getting overzealous with your approach.

Dash > 5D shouldn't really be a problem if you are charging intelligently - i.e. tapping 5D. The worst that happens there is you're forced to block a 5DD, but her options from there are pretty limited.

Lambda's goal in this matchup is to frustrate you into doing dumb stuff while trying to get in, but she can't REALLY do that without taking some risks due to Tsubaki's ability to cover ground so quickly. Additionally, Tsubaki's payoff for getting in on Lambda is much bigger than the payoff for Lambda forcing most mistakes (there are some that will set you up for gruesome bad things, but overall, getting hit by an air sword, for example, doesn't really do that much damage.).

I'm still arguing 5.5 Tsubaki's favor here.

[BatousaiJ]

Who's the best Lambchops player you've ever played, Airk?

[pktazn]

I'm pretty sure toanenadiz is speaking from experience...

[Airk]

Heck if I know. I don't keep track. But fine, if we're going to play the "you don't have enough experience to discuss this" card, I'll just shut up. I don't usually tend to base this sort of thing on my own experiences though. I base them on analyzing better players.

The weird thing is that toanenadiz pretty much said I was right, since, well, what're you doing at full screen in this matchup if not charging?

Oh well, as mentioned, shutting up.

[pktazn]

I'm not saying don't speak about it because you don't have enough experience or anything like that considering then there wouldn't be any discussion at all. It's more of how the information was presented in your rebuttal. Going against someone who's good with the character yourself will give you more match-up ideas as well as helping with strategies more than just watching others play.

And no one said you were wrong but I will apologize for making you feel like that.

[toanenadiz]

I've never seen a Lambda player try to use 3C against 236C, so I dunno. Sounds kinda risky. Also, if they start doing this, you can try to bait it by doing 236A or B instead, which will move you closer without putting you in range of 3C.

Lambda's 214D isn't really much faster to come out than 214D - it's 35 frames of startup...and doesn't even reach full screen, so if you're at max range, it's irrelevant, and she can do it all she wants. If she wants to do the version that reaches the entire length of the screen, it's 63 frames of startup. There's room for some mindgames here on their part, where they can do the 'short' version in an effort to try to bait you into attacking, but it's not really that threatening.

At full screen, as long as you can react to 4D and 236D~C, you're fine. You don't lose anything for having to jump and block, since you can't get any further away anyway.

At "not quite full screen", Lambda basically can't throw stuff out, because 5D can be jump>barriered on reaction, 214D and 236D can be 236C'd on reaction, and any other sort of "guessing" with swords leaves her open to a 236C punish. She has to jump, or bait you into getting overzealous with your approach.

Dash > 5D shouldn't really be a problem if you are charging intelligently - i.e. tapping 5D. The worst that happens there is you're forced to block a 5DD, but her options from there are pretty limited.

Lambda's goal in this matchup is to frustrate you into doing dumb stuff while trying to get in, but she can't REALLY do that without taking some risks due to Tsubaki's ability to cover ground so quickly. Additionally, Tsubaki's payoff for getting in on Lambda is much bigger than the payoff for Lambda forcing most mistakes (there are some that will set you up for gruesome bad things, but overall, getting hit by an air sword, for example, doesn't really do that much damage.).

I'm still arguing 5.5 Tsubaki's favor here.

3C isn't unsafe. It will reliably hit Tsubaki out of 236C everytime.

Using 236A or 236B has the downside of being punishable if Lambda decided to do nothing.

Tsu's 236D is quite hard to beat outright with Lambda's 3C. It seems to clash more often than not but Tsu's 236D loses its hitbox after the clash so if you are unprepared for that, you could be punished.

214D is used to force Tsubaki to approach a certain way. 214D covers a large amount of the screen both vertically and horizontally, reducing Tsubaki's approach options. Lambda's gameplan is all about controlling space which is why 214D would be used in that situation rather than 236D, which controls a small amount of space. And the longer you sit at full screen, the less time you have to get in on Lambda, which can be a cause for concern if you don't have the life lead since Lambda does a good job at locking you down during the final seconds of a round for a timeout win.

Dash 5D is an issue if they yomi'd your charge(or a shield rush). You are in a CH state for 18 frames, which leaves you wide open for losing 4K+ damage and ending up in Lambda's oki. And since it is pretty easy to tell if you were charging after they threw it out, she doesn't have to commit to the 236C follow-up and can just do normal stuff after the 5D.

I think you are vastly underestimating Lambda. It isn't as easy it is seems to consistently react to her stuff. And Lambda doesn't necessarily have to guess with swords or her normals. She can simple wait and react to what you are doing. After all, you have to approach her, not the other way around.

Edit: I forgot to ask this. Tsubaki doesn't have any way to escape Lambda's 236D oki, does she? Like any moves with feet/projectile invincibility that moves her either forward or backwards? I didn't see anything like that in the frame data, but it can't hurt to ask you guys.

[Fallacy]

she has projectile invulnerable moves but they are generally hard to time against lambda. if you get caught blocking 236d you are in trouble. The most success I have had getting out of blockstun is trying to make lamda 5d or do an unsafe 214d, I can react to 5d with 214b and 214d with 236c.

And really lambda's 3c is great in this matchup. It stops rush ins and it low profiles to beat 5b. I can't count the number of times I try to 5b and get counter hit by 3c.

[Airk]

And really lambda's 3c is great in this matchup. It stops rush ins and it low profiles to beat 5b. I can't count the number of times I try to 5b and get counter hit by 3c.

General advice, since I'm not allowed to talk about Lambda anymore:

Anytime you find yourself getting counterhit out of 5B by moves that low profile under it, mixing in the occasional 22X can make your opponent more wary of doing this, since it hits lower to the ground than 5B. Generally you'll want to use 22A or 22D for this, since the others are a bit slow, but 22D costs charge and 22A is unsafe on block (it's not too bad as long as you space well though - most moves that can hit you at -9 won't reach you at near-max 22A range, just don't do it up close where you can get jabbed.) so don't get too predictable, but in most circumstances where you'd be 'poking' with 5B and getting CH'd by Lambda/Hazama 3C, 22A is pretty safe. It only takes a couple of CH 22A combos to discourage people from throwing out 3C's quite so much.