[CS2] Rachel vs. Hakumen

[Kuuhaku]

Overview

Tips/Misc

• Orb is still annoying.
  
• Hakumen does not like j.A.
  
• Hakumen can cut 5B/2B, so watch out.
  
• Hakumen's mid screen damage is much lower than it was in CS1 while Rachel's damage is much higher than it was in CS1, but you still don't want to get hit by him in the corner.
  
• Hakumen can Kishuu through pumpkin since it's waist up invulnerable, but you can bait this and hit him with 2B/5B.
  
• Using cannons as an anti-air is kind of risky, 6A is better.
  
• If Hakumen likes doing counters on wake up, use 4B to make him whiff and get a CH. Or just throw him.
  
• Don't camp out by Hakumen if you have George out. Either get some distance to summon pumpkin or do mix up.
  

Character Specific Combos

JPN Match Up Videos

Here

[mAc Chaos]

Is 5B/2B a projectile now or something?

[Kuuhaku]

Yep. They're both physical/projectile now.

[Delrian]

Is 5B/2B a projectile now or something?

Projectile and attack properties, I think.

But yeah, can be sledged or cut, which makes me hate Tager/Haku even more...

[currentlemon]

This match-up should be back in Rachel's favor. Considering he loses to her zoning and the fact he can't jump at her anymore. There is still more stuff about this match-up, but I'll keep playing her for a while and see.

[tofurr]

He can still get around her zoning, but jump-ins aren't really a big deal anymore. His new counter super kind of mind fucked me.

[[SpA]Relentless]

In my opinion this matchup isn't in Rachel's favor at all - she's at a slight disadvantage. Basically it comes down to who manages to corner the opponent first.

On the defense, you cannot zone him effectively because he can cut your lobelias and winded pumpkin, and because of the amazing range of his 3C, 4C and j.C.

On the offense, you have to be vary of his counters. If you see him getting counter happy, mix in more throws than usual to keep him honest.

I have mixed feelings about 6A in this matchup - it beats him clean when he's directly above you or crossing you up, but when he's jumping in in front of you with j.2C, it tends to clash if you do it too early, or loses completely if you do it too late. Timing and positioning is much stricter than against other characters.

Don't use 236A9D and 236BD predictably - these are at the perfect position to be cutted by his 4C. 236C3D however is much tougher for him.

Don't try to play footsies with him. Against some chars you can attempt this, and Hakumen is not one of them. His 5B shifts his hurtbox back so you can't hit him with 2A, but he will hit you with 5B (and he can now combo it into Enma without a CH). His 4C and 3C outrange and outprioritize everything you can do. Use 6B sparingly - if you whiff it in front of him, he can do 4C > Enma.

To approach him, you have to condition him. Summon a pumpkin and do a winded dash into mixups. Eventually he will realize than he can just 4C the pumpkin and make it explode in your face. However, once he does that, he will try and anticipate it everytime you summon a pumpkin and whiff a 4C from time to time - that's when you wind in and punish him in his recovery. Switch back and forth between these patterns depending on what he's doing - abuse his habits.

If you have a frog out, he will obviously try and kill it. The easiest way for him to do so is by doing 3C - however he cannot jumpcancel it to keep himself safe, so prepare to wind in and punish when George is in his 3C range. Another trick you can do when you're fullscreen is to summon a frog, then do 236C3D. This will place a pole directly on Hakumen and put the frog into the perfect range for his 3C - but he cannot just destroy it like that because of the threat of sword iris. Punishing him for killing George is also a big reason why you don't want him to get a black hole up.

If he jumps over the frog and tries to get close to you, that's also not bad since he can't kill it from behind. Wind the frog towards you during a gap in his strings to shift the momentum.

If he manages to corner you, things get dangerous. Most of Hakumen's moves are either safe on block (5B, Zantetsu. 3C although it will end his pressure) or leave him at frame advantage (5A, 2A, 2B, 6A, Gurren, Renka, Hotaru). Respect Hotaru. Seriously fucking respect it. This will catch if you try to jump out predictably, and also works as a wakeup move. It's like a shoryuken, but positive on block and not punishable on whiff. On FC in the corner, he'll get 4.5k+ off of it. Also be aware of Instant Overhead TK Tsubaki in the corner - it's very fast and also lets him do 5k+. These two moves are very good reasons to burst.

To get out of the corner, barrier block his stuff (even if his normals are good, his pressure sucks) and push him out of range, then try to either do a winded superjump (just be aware of Hotaru) out of the corner or try and 6A him if he jumps back in.

If you manage to corner him, keep him there at all costs. If you can keep the pressure up, it should be game over. It's not possible for him even on IB to do a 2D between 5B and 2B or a 6D between 5B and j.2DA if you do it right, so he is forced into a high low guessing game without a chance of fighting back. Always end your combos with knockdown into pumpkin or frog oki. Be aware of Hotaru and his counters on his wakeup, especially Yukikaze (because it catches highs, mids and lows).

If he manages to break out of your corner trap, this is the third good reason to burst in this match.

[Kuuhaku]

There's some things wrong with the above post...

The fastest Hakumen can do Tsubaki is 19F (15 startup + 4 jump start up). If you can block Gurren, you can block TK Tsubaki. 3C is not safe on block. It is -4 on block and ends his pressure more or less. Best he can do is rapid it, he can't even special cancel. Even if you normal block it, you can 5B him at the right range, or at the very least 5A/2A. Or, you could jump out and still have time to barrier block... but that's probably a better idea to do if you IB and it also depends on range. If he's doing max range 3C, it's probably better to try to jump out or backdash (use wind if you feel like you need it to get out).

3C will kill the frog, but if George doesn't activate (which he shouldn't as Hakumen wants to kill him before that), you can just throw out another one. Or just summon pumpkin while he's busy killing George. Or throw a lobelia at him to make him block something.

Hakumen can only 4C the pumpkin if you're using it predictably. Hotaru has 23F of recovery, so it is punishable on whiff.

[[SpA]Relentless]

The fastest Hakumen can do Tsubaki is 19F (15 startup + 4 jump start up). If you can block Gurren, you can block TK Tsubaki.

I don't get how blocking Gurren, which is basically a dash punch that hits mid, has anything to do with blocking an overhead. And 19f is pretty damn fast imo. He can also cancel his forward dash into Tsubaki (and don't tell me you want to count the dash towards the startup as well).

3C is not safe on block. It is -4 on block and ends his pressure more or less.

Rachel fastest normal is 5A with 6 frames so no, she cannot punish 3C on block (safe on block means it's not punishable, not that it leaves Hakumen at an advantage - don't mix things up). Even if you IB it, you'll probably be out of range to fight back. Of course it's resets the situation to neutral, but it's still a decent poke, and you will still be in 4C range.

3C will kill the frog, but if George doesn't activate (which he shouldn't as Hakumen wants to kill him before that), you can just throw out another one.

Of course you can, but just setting frog after frog won't let you start an offense. You want to have a pumpkin out WHILE he's busy killing the frog, not afterwards.

Hakumen can only 4C the pumpkin if you're using it predictably.

Isn't that what I said? And that you can bait it? -_-

Hotaru has 23F of recovery, so it is punishable on whiff.

Landing on the ground cancels the recovery of the move entirely, so TK Hotaru/ Dash Hotaru is not punishable at all. That's also why it leaves him at frame advantage (and also the reason why TK Sword Iris leaves Rachel at up to +24 despite it having 3 more frames recovery than ground Sword Iris). Every time I tried to punish a whiffed Hotaru, I ate a CH 3C combo for it.

[Kuuhaku]

19F is fast an an overhead, but it's reactable. It's by no means an instant overhead. That's Rachel's j.A which is 12 frames (and yes, for moves you have to TK as overheads, you do have to count the jump start up). If he's doing forward dash into Tsubaki, then yes you'd count the start up of the dash too.

Also, the point for 3C is if he uses it, that's great for you. He's done and you can get out. On IB you should have time to dash buffer and hit him.

You don't necessarily have to be always approaching Hakumen. What you're looking for is tagging him with a projectile (namely pumpkin) and then starting your pressure. Hakumen has no real way to deal with Rachel pressure. You can bait his counters pretty easily by making him whiff or throwing him. If you're at neutral, Rachel can zone him pretty easily. If he gets an orb out, you just make him move away from it by super jump + wind or you can just camp it out (you want to move away from it if it's near you as that thing can mess up your combos, which is the only thing I find really annoying about it). If he has you in the corner, then yeah it can get bad, especially if you get tagged by certain moves. But there are certain points where he's done and you can get out.

Look at it this way- That match up was at worst 6-4 in CS1 when Rachel was super weak and Hakumen was pretty strong. Problems Rachel had in that match up is she did have to heavily rely on her zoning (which was also weaker) to get damage since her actual combos and pressure weren't that great. Also, getting hit by Hakumen did hurt pretty badly. CS2, you out damage him pretty easily mid-screen and your pressure and zoning are stronger.

If you're getting 3C CHed for trying to punish a whiffed Hotaru, you're probably doing it too slow. If you're having extra trouble with it then take that time to summon pumpkin or bring pumpkin in with you.

Finally- Bursting to keep him in the corner isn't a bad idea (at times), but he can also counter your burst. So, it's not something I recommend if you have better options to keep him in.

[C0R]

Remember that jumping into the orb with barrier up is always a viable option if you don't want to deal with it.

[kotokot]

Relentless;1020956']I don't get how blocking Gurren, which is basically a dash punch that hits mid, has anything to do with blocking an overhead. And 19f is pretty damn fast imo. He can also cancel his forward dash into Tsubaki (and don't tell me you want to count the dash towards the startup as well).

dash>tsubaki 2f slower, i think don't think 20F+ is "instant", but he can mix it with throw or renka.

Relentless;1020956']Landing on the ground cancels the recovery of the move entirely' date=' so TK Hotaru/ Dash Hotaru is not punishable at all. That's also why it leaves him at frame advantage (and also the reason why TK Sword Iris leaves Rachel at up to +24 despite it having 3 more frames recovery than ground Sword Iris). Every time I tried to punish a whiffed Hotaru, I ate a CH 3C combo for it. [/quote']

it's very easy punishable, if you close

about haku remember, what he can grab you from frog, pumpkin and other staff, he can cancel a,b attacks with drives, 623a hitbox is very low, hotaru wiff much more if you sit, he has now a-b links, j.d recovery is fast if he did it low, he can 6d or 2d into 5b>5c. I think it's hardest matchup for everyone(except tager).

[Kuuhaku]

Though, actually one thing I didn't notice is that Kishu is invincible waist up (someone told me it low profiled). That's what I get for not reading frame data... anyway, Hakumen can use that to go through pumpkin. So that's something to keep in mind.

EDIT: Herp. It is just low profile.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Okay, I misnamed it then.

I'm well aware that you have to add jump frames to an aerial attack if it's supposed to hit grounded opponents - but I'm not too sure if you should add dash frames as well (he has the option of doing 2b > Renka or whatever instead so you can't just block high by default if you see a dash).

The rest you're saying - I can accept it. I tend to see matchups worse than they might be because it's still better than the other way around.

I'll have to look into Hotaru punish more closely. It seemed to recover very fast to me (to the point where'd I'd say it's not "very easy" to punish it on reaction - if you anticipate it, sure...)

[C0R]

Hakumen's dash is irregular, it takes longer for Tsubaki to come out if you do 66214c then if you simply tk it, at least two more frames if I remember correctly.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Hmm, that's interesting, didn't know that.

[Kuuhaku]

Hakumen's dash is irregular, it takes longer for Tsubaki to come out if you do 66214c then if you simply tk it, at least two more frames if I remember correctly.

Four more. Hakumen can't special cancel his forward hop until frame 8.

He could jump cancel his forward hop during frames 1-4 and Tsubaki though, but that's kind of a waste since it's still slower.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Regarding Hotaru punish: I tried it now and when he lands on the ground, he can block anything I do afterwards. It's however possible to catch him with 5B while he's still in the air (into the usual lvl2 j.2c stuff). This however requires you to be fairly close, dashing up doesn't work.

[tofurr]

I'm having issues with people mashing yukiaze inbetween my pressure, mainly during frog hitstun. Anyone got any tips for this?

[kotokot]

I'm having issues with people mashing yukiaze inbetween my pressure, mainly during frog hitstun. Anyone got any tips for this?

use throws or bait catches.

btw rachel can 5d backdash on 4c, +4-10F depending on dash timing.

[Kuuhaku]

I'm having issues with people mashing yukiaze inbetween my pressure, mainly during frog hitstun. Anyone got any tips for this?

I'm assuming you mean blockstun and not hitstun.

Anyway, as kotoko said- throw. Also, if it activates off George just jump and get away (if it activates off of you, then you're kinda screwed).

Make him scared to use it by doing tick throw setups. Also, if you keep your mix up scary enough (make him scared of j.A/2B), he'll be too busy trying to block instead of mashing (I imagine it's hard to mash when trying to guess a 13f overhead). If he's just mashing it in general, try to stick to gapless block strings and bait it (if he whiffs it, he's super sad).

A more likely situation though is that he'll try to barrier you out to stay out of instant j.A range and try to Yukikaze George/Pumpkin. So just make sure to watch for that and super jump out. He may get out of the corner for a chunk of meter, but you'll at least get a free pumpkin summon for your trouble.

An easy way to bait it is if you think he's mashing while blocking George. During the end of George use 2A, wait until super flash, and then run in and throw. This will also catch him if he's mashing counter.

[Jason D.]

An easy way to bait it is if you think he's mashing while blocking George. During the end of George use 2A, wait until super flash, and then run in and throw. This will also catch him if he's mashing counter.

Well, Yukikaze don't flash no more. So waiting to see it whiff isn't as easy. But yeah, same idea either way. Just attack with no gap, and then run up and throw him.

[Kuuhaku]

Ah. Right. It only flashes on activation. Giant red target thing... close enough. It's easy enough to see.

If you do see the super flash, then it's hopefully because of George and not you which means it's time to haul ass. :3

[C0R]

Good luck trying to punish Yukikkaze by the way, it's super hard, I would recommend setting back up with pumpkin/stuff if he does counter something that's not your face.

[Kuuhaku]

Good luck trying to punish Yukikkaze by the way, it's super hard, I would recommend setting back up with pumpkin/stuff if he does counter something that's not your face.

Well, when you are against Spark who times all his counters extremely well (even yukikaze), then yeah. It's tough, but doable. But this guy was talking about people who mash it. Spark wouldn't do something dumb like mash yukikaze while blocking George.

Anyway, Hakumen's job is to make it really tough for Rachel to summon at neutral, so if you're going to try and setup again you should get some distance first so you don't get smacked by 3C/4C.

General notes- the safest time outside of knockdown to summon is when you get Hakumen to block a B or C cannon. But, if he IBs it in the air, at some distances he can have enough time to air dash and hit you with j.2C out of summon. If you change the timing of your cannon shots though and harass with pumpkin, you can make it tough for him to IB.

In this match up it's kinda like being Arakune where you have to remain unpredictable in order to get summons (luckily, summon is easier/safer than setting up cloud) and also to not be punished for using your summons. If you use all of your tools well though, this match up is a pain in the butt for Hakumen. If you use your tools poorly, then Hakumen will punish you every time and make you feel stupid.