[CS2] Ragna vs Tsubaki

[Leonil_Requiem]

Why does a wing and a book do more damage mid screen than a sword and the power of darkness? Let's find out! This thread is dedicated to the production of the Ragna vs. Tsubaki. Let's keep it above the waste and have a good clean fight.

[Janiekenzu]

How Do you stop her From running away so much, they run away and charge And use there drive at every oppurtunity.

I hadn't have that much trouble against tsubaki users but this hit and run tactic is really annoying.

[AzureRage]

How does fight against Tsubaki with Ragna? There a few things you can do. Either run up to her while she charge she might ID on you, counter with ID since Ragna's ID have alot of priority over alot of things, block and punish her, Hell's Fang at a distance, Air Gauntlet Hades if she jumps or poke her. The most important thing is Ragna is a rusher, don't mash too much but rush down your opponent so they don't a chance to breathe.

[The Katz]

How does fight against Tsubaki with Ragna? There a few things you can do. Either run up to her while she charge she might ID on you, counter with ID since Ragna's ID have alot of priority over alot of things, block and punish her, Hell's Fang at a distance, Air Gauntlet Hades if she jumps or poke her. The most important thing is Ragna is a rusher, don't mash too much but rush down your opponent so they don't a chance to breathe.

She... She doesn't have Inferno Divider...

I also have no idea where to start correcting this.

Edit:

That post instructs people to do almost all of the riskiest things you can do.

Hell's Fang on block from across da earth isn't too bright of an idea, considering if they block it or if you whiff Hell's Fang it gives them a free combo (only on instant block if the first hit was blocked, but it leaves you at a heavy frame disadvantage).

Gauntlet Hades is at least -9 when used in the air, but keep in mind that the number is from doing the move as low as possible to the ground. It's worse if you aren't on spot with the timing. Either way, if it's blocked you... yet again, eat a combo for free.

Giving her time to charge isn't good 'cause her drive specials don't suck and they let her get good damage, but rushing in recklessly is a bad idea as well. I'm personally conflicted on how to approach this, because it feels like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I personally don't mind her getting a few drive bars throughout the match, since if you could prevent that the match-up wouldn't be rightly balanced (a meter-charge character that can't meter-charge..?) It's unavoidable, so just be mindful of random 236D's (Charging Stars!) and watch out for 22D unblockables. If they start releasing it early to bait attacks, just inferno when close and backdash when out of range.

[AzureRage]

Tsubaki's Spike Cannon (623/A/B/C/D), it's similar to ID but doesn't have the priority like it. Sorry, I play very risky then most people, I think Ragna is a risk and reward chracter at some point. Yeah, if the Hell's Fang is whiff it is a free combo, but if they block you can immediately start blocking after the hit even thought it's a -9 frame disadvantage. I do TK Gauntlet Hades and j.TK GH most of time. I'm not saying do it recklessly or anything, I could have say rush but be smart about it at the same time. True, her charge is unavoidable. She's a lot better this better than CS1 for sure.

[KayEff]

Ragna's free to Tsubaki's 236 and j.236 moves. I seriously hate how safe and quick that shit is.

[A.X.I.S.]

Tsubaki's Spike Cannon (623/A/B/C/D), it's similar to ID but doesn't have the priority like it. Sorry, I play very risky then most people, I think Ragna is a risk and reward chracter at some point. Yeah, if the Hell's Fang is whiff it is a free combo, but if they block you can immediately start blocking after the hit even thought it's a -9 frame disadvantage. I do TK Gauntlet Hades and j.TK GH most of time. I'm not saying do it recklessly or anything, I could have say rush but be smart about it at the same time. True, her charge is unavoidable. She's a lot better this better than CS1 for sure.

-9 is horribly unsafe.

Notes:

236 series can be IB 5A'd so do that if she tries it.

Her dive is strange, she doesn't hit the ground when she hits, you can IB that and punish accordingly too.

Her 5B>your 5B, don't get hit by it.

Space your j.C out of the range of 2C, it's safe enough to mash.

She can AA with 5B.

Do not let her get charge or you are gonna have to look out for more stuff then you wanted to.

[VR-Raiden]

Just to nitpick, isn't an instant blocked HF only -7 now, since IB is -3 blockstun now instead of -5?

But that still makes it punishable, of course.

[Airk]

Notes:

236 series can be IB 5A'd so do that if she tries it.

This is not, in fact, universally true. Unlike some moves like Hell's Fang, Tsubaki's 236 series doesn't immediately go into recovery on contact, so her frame advantage off the move is based on her spacing. 236X at max range can be up to +4, whereas if done too close, they can be as bad as -5. Needless to say, if she spaces properly, even IB>5A will get you 5A'd in return.

All THAT said, this is MOSTLY only a threat longer ranges; Most Tsubaki players won't use 236A/B outside of a combo, because you can't START a combo off them, except for little special cancel 236X > 214X > 22X things, which are mostly only good for knockdown. So you really only have to worry about 236C, which is only plus on block at about 3/4ths of fullscreen (and will actually stop short at absolute max fullscreen range - if you are at a distance where you're safe from Hazama's chains or Lambda's 5D sword, you're probably safe from 236C as well, and you'll get a free punish if she tries it because she'll go right into recovery in front of you.) The exception to THAT, of course, is if Tsubaki has charge, she can go from 236A/B into 214D into IAD beatdown, or other options - though most players will instead just go for 236D if they have charge. The short form, though, is that you should never assume you have a punish after blocking one of these moves - though going for an Inferno Divider will stuff her followup jabs, it has all the usual risks if she decides to just block after you block 236X.

Her dive is strange, she doesn't hit the ground when she hits, you can IB that and punish accordingly too.

This move is definitely punishable - probably a shortdash 5B would be the easiest way, but there are probably other options. There are no shenanigans possible here except for Rapid Cancel. Smart Tsubaki players will not use this move randomly.

Do not let her get charge or you are gonna have to look out for more stuff then you wanted to.

This is basically it. You'll need to apply pressure and keep it on. As soon as Tsubaki starts getting charge, this match goes from "okay" to "uh oh" for Ragna. But you're going to have to pressure smart, because reckless pressure will get you comboed and THEN she'll get charge and you'll be worse off than if you just sat there and let her do it.

[The Katz]

Tsubaki's Spike Cannon (623/A/B/C/D), it's similar to ID but doesn't have the priority like it. Sorry, I play very risky then most people, I think Ragna is a risk and reward chracter at some point. Yeah, if the Hell's Fang is whiff it is a free combo, but if they block you can immediately start blocking after the hit even thought it's a -9 frame disadvantage. I do TK Gauntlet Hades and j.TK GH most of time. I'm not saying do it recklessly or anything, I could have say rush but be smart about it at the same time. True, her charge is unavoidable. She's a lot better this better than CS1 for sure.

High risk/mild reward doesn't seem worth it when there are better options.

-4 without IB, -9 with IB in CT and CS1, -7 with IB in CS2. -9 and -7 leave you open for a poke punish. TK Gauntlet hades is

j.Gauntlet Hades. TK is short for "Tiger Knee", where you do said move the moment you can from a jump.

GH = 214B, tk.GH = either 2147B or 8214B. If you cancel your jumping animation with ground Gauntlet Hades, that actually makes the move slower than it originally would be.

Ragna's free to Tsubaki's 236 and j.236 moves. I seriously hate how safe and quick that shit is.

236A is -3, 236B/C are -5 (cutting it really close...) 236D is either +2 or +3. I can't recall. j.236 moves can just be 6A'd if you're in a situation that allows it.

Her 5B>your 5B, don't get hit by it.

Your 5B is faster with more active frames, just a lower (and possibly longer) hitbox. I wouldn't go so far as to say her 5B is strictly better than yours. However, I've been 5A'd at the max range of my 5B too consistently to ignore it. Shit's ridiculous.

[Airk]

H

236A is -3, 236B/C are -5 (cutting it really close...) 236D is either +2 or +3. I can't recall. j.236 moves can just be 6A'd if you're in a situation that allows it.

Again, this is NOT really true. If you keep playing like "Oh, 236C is -5 on block, I can throw out a 5A" you're on the fast train to counterhit city against Tsubaki. How negative or positive she is on that move depends on how many active frames still have to pass after she hits you. If it's small (i.e. at near max range for the move) she is positive, if it's large (i.e. hitting you at close range) it's negative. Unless you are aware of this, you will get hurt by attempting punishes that don't work.

Your 5B is faster with more active frames, just a lower (and possibly longer) hitbox. I wouldn't go so far as to say her 5B is strictly better than yours. However, I've been 5A'd at the max range of my 5B too consistently to ignore it. Shit's ridiculous.

Ragna's 5B has a much nicer hitbox, and as you say, more active frames. However, it's a less good combo starter, with less P1, and is unsuitable for being a standalone poke since it leaves you at -7 vs +1. So I'd call it a wash. Both sides probably appreciate the other's features more than the ones they have.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Legit, my advice to Rags players for this matchup is to learn to space. I've already noted it in the Tsubaki forums, but, when these are spaced properly,

Your 5B outspaces our 5B, both range and speed-wise.

Your 5C outspaces pretty much every normal we have.

Yeahhhh.

[KayEff]

not every tsubaki uses 5B

in fact some of them use 236X ((

and then shit happens ((((

[Arvoyea]

Legit, my advice to Rags players for this matchup is to learn to space. I've already noted it in the Tsubaki forums, but, when these are spaced properly,

Your 5B outspaces our 5B, both range and speed-wise.

Your 5C outspaces pretty much every normal we have.

Yeahhhh.

The fact we didn't put that into consideration makes me sad. Thanks.

not every tsubaki uses 5B

in fact some of them use 236X ((

and then shit happens ((((

And then there's this. It can be hard to apply pressure, especially if you're not sure of the opponent's playstyle. I say apply pressure calmly with well-spaced normals and dead spike. Always go for knockdown, even from the most simple combos and apply okizeme pressure. Does Ragna have any okizeme?

[Dusk Thanatos]

Ragna 22C is really, really, really fucking good as a combo ender to get oki

[KayEff]

Too bad in most cases Tsubakis would spam 623A/D and most of the time it would work

In theory it shouldn't work but it's happened to me so many goddamn times I'm starting to not believe myself

[LuminAbyss]

What Dusk said a couple of posts above, our spacing still beats hers. We must abuse this to prevent further advancements upon our territory by the Blinded Battle Front™.

I've also found, on her A DP, 2B causes a trade that neither character can make something out of (i.e. kind of returns the situation to neutral). It has something to do with the invul on her A DP, I'm not completely sure, but it's happened enough times.

[Airk]

Ragna 22C is really, really, really fucking good as a combo ender to get oki

Er, yes, but it's not applicable to most combos, because you're not close enough/don't have time or whatever. Or at least, I assume that's why people don't use it after every combo.

As for 623A/Ding it... it should work, actually. Assuming your opponent is fast enough to recover from the stagger on the first frame and mash out the DP, 22C only leaves you at +5, so 5A will land RIGHT as 623A/D is starting up, and get beat by the invulnerability frames. Of course, the simple solution to that is to NOT attack after 22C, let them do the DP, and then start the combo of your choice. Honestly, doing 623A/D after a DP is unwise unless they have the charges for D-cancelling or something.

[LuminAbyss]

Er, yes, but it's not applicable to most combos, because you're not close enough/don't have time or whatever. Or at least, I assume that's why people don't use it after every combo.

In any combo you can get a knockdown in by 2D or 3C (or Carnage Scissors), 22C is possible. Most of Ragna's corner combos can end in 22C, but people opt for Hell's Fang for the heat in addition to the alright oki it provides. 22C is used for the stagger state and damage addition.

[Dusk Thanatos]

236x has too much startup for spacing use, IMO, but it does have hella active frames. It's more a "fuck you I'm going in" move. 236A and 236B really should be combo fodder. 236C won't really be used except from across the screen, so, if you're controlling the right space, this won't be an issue. 236D will get used more liberally because it's plus on block and a decent starter.

They're really bad on whiff unless they're cancelled into something safer with D-special cancelling, though.

Too bad in most cases Tsubakis would spam 623A/D and most of the time it would work

In theory it shouldn't work but it's happened to me so many goddamn times I'm starting to not believe myself

22C oki is just like every other wakeup, in that there's still /some/ prediction involved. The difference is that you have to predict a shitton less with 22C than a normal knockdown.

Hell, I'd say Ragna 22C gives you the closest thing to a normal okizeme situation that this game can provide.

I've also found, on her A DP, 2B causes a trade that neither character can make something out of (i.e. kind of returns the situation to neutral). It has something to do with the invul on her A DP, I'm not completely sure, but it's happened enough times.

Yeah. Invul on A DP wears off before the hit, so things don't always go so smooth for Tsu.

A DP still has projectile property, so, /if/ it can be timed, meaty Dead Spike should lol in its face. D DP doesn't have projectile property anymore, and DOES have invul up through the hit, though not any further.

[Airk]

Yeah, trying to use 236X for spacing is like trying to use Ragna's 6C for spacing. Probably not a good idea since it takes so long to come out. If someone is inside 5B range and trying to 236X you, you should win every time. 214X, on the other hand, will stuff you bad under those cirumstances. (Images provided just in case someone, well, doesn't know all Tsubaki's moves by notation.)

If a Tsubaki player is OUTSIDE 5B range, then 236X will stuff random Dead Spikes (assuming both players do the moves at roughly the same time) and will probably beat anything you try to throw out on reaction. However, 236C is unsafe at anything less than about half screen distance, and 236B doesn't really give Tsubaki much of a combo unless she D-cancels. (Which she bloody well should if she has the charge). The real danger of 236C is at half to three quarters screen distance, where it will stuff run ins, and/or put her in your face at advantage. It is advisable to jump a lot if you are at this range. (You can try Hell's Fang, but you'll probably just trade.) Actually, jumping a lot is good at any range if you can space your air to grounds or use doublejumps/dash/belial edge to fake out 2C anti-air attempts.

[VR-Raiden]

Am I the only one who's still fucking terrible at this match up? I really don't get it.

[Airk]

From the Tsubaki side of this arrangement, I have divided Ragna players into two categories:

Ragna players who try to fight me on the ground, who I can generally beat, or at least, put up a good fight against.

and

Ragna players with good mastery of doublejumps, airdashes, and j.B crossups, who routinely crush me utterly.

Tsubaki is generally at her weakest against airborne opponents - as long as you can bait or avoid her 2C/214X, your air options are much stronger than hers.

[VR-Raiden]

Ok thanks, I'll try that.

I think another problem I've been having with the match is I play it way too defensively, but part of that probably comes from my lack of understanding the match in general.