[CS2] Jin vs Bang

[Yuushiro]

Going to update these as I have time to gather information from people’s and my own experience and translate what the Japanese are saying in the wiki or BBS

For now you guys can discuss the matchup here.

Basic/Matchup overview:

long-distance:

mid range:

short range:

Best tools:

Best way to pressure:

Their strategy vs us:

Best overall strategy:

[koun]

Basic/Matchup overview: 5.5-4.5

long-distance: Same as Jake D but you also have 5D.You can a Dp nails on reaction.

mid range: you poke him with 2A and Stagger him at mid range, also look out for 2D,5A,2B.

short range:If you make him scared to use 5B then your doing things right, also 2A is something to look out for always!

Best tools: A Well used 5D can shit on his Drives.

Best way to pressure: Bang has the same amount of health as you but your overall dmg is higher, also keep in mind bang has awesome mobility

Their strategy vs us: Close in, mix you up, then Frz, then you die.

Best overall strategy:Play solid, play Jin, don't ct him.

[Jake D]

5D? Shit on his drives?

[Justice7541]

Couple of things from Bang's perspective:

1) Jin has really good air normals and Bang has shit AA. You can pretty much jump in on him for free, just watch out for 2D or 5C. Both are easy to stuff though.

2) Jin can basically ignore Bang's bumper/FRKZ game. He's got tons of moves that will stuff dash mixup clean and Bang can't really bait any of them anymore since his FRKZ backdash is halved. Just be aware of when he's in range for a crossup and buffer your specials early so your inputs don't get reversed.

3) Jin's 5C is actually faster than Bang's 5B now. It's also got like twice as much range and a much better hitbox all around and if Bang isn't at least midscreen he gets zilch off a max range 5B while you get 4-5k depending on where you are. Definitely a good risk/reward for Jin.

4) Bang actually has a reversal now (Ashura) and it's only -7 on block and you can actually do things off it if it hits, so be careful when he got meter. Since it's only -7 and AUB, you won't be able to punish it in the air but on the ground you can IB 5C or make it whiff with backdash. Either way expect to be seeing Ashura a lot more in CS2.

5) TK nails have really bad advantage now. If you see him dash after a TK D nail that's basically your cue to mash, you'll probably beat anything he tries to poke with. If he doesn't dash though you risk getting CH'd by 5B.

Definitely a very easy matchup for Jin. I'd say 6/4 or even 6.5/3.5 in his favor, although I suppose that's debatable.

[Moy_X7]

I don't have much experience against CSII Bangs but you still have to respect his 5A. A well-timed 5A will shit on your jump-in attempts/cross-ups and will beat most of your stuff at pointblank range.

[Justice7541]

5A's vertical hitbox was nerfed a bit. It's not as good as it used to be except against deep jump-ins. Otherwise it is a lot better though, recovers faster, more advantage, still leads to good damage in corner, etc. Definitely not a good idea to mash when he's in 5A range but it's like Bangs are going to be able to autopilot it to victory like in CS1 either.

[koun]

Couple of things from Bang's perspective:

3) Jin's 5C is actually faster than Bang's 5B now. It's also got like twice as much range and a much better hitbox all around and if Bang isn't at least midscreen he gets zilch off a max range 5B while you get 4-5k depending on where you are. Definitely a good risk/reward for Jin.

Jin 5C is 10 startup and active on frame 4. Bang 5B is 10 startup and active on frame 4 but Jin has 4 frames more recovery. only has a longer hitbox on the last three active frames. they're 5B and 5C are about the same.

5D? Shit on his drives?

You can dash cancel to get around his teleports and You can special cancel 5D to go for the risk and try to hurt. This end work for Jin alot.

[xlolxlolx]

or it could whiff and you eat a counter hit

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

you guys must be fighting the wrong bangs... tk d nails is fucking lame. Any tips on how to get around this (especially when they do it at the start of the round)?

[Moy_X7]

I don't know, the guy can pressure you to death if you don't take any risks. IB > DP D his nails from time to time to keep him honest. Otherwise just super jump away, at least you don't have to eat the ground mix-up if you block them in the air. Bangs that can use his Bumper setups correctly are scary but scarce and those that can use Furinkazan are extremely rare lol.

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

basically, but I found out how to stop his pressure (it's not hard offline but it's always that one second delay that messes you up online). Also a good thing to practice is IBing his d nails in the air. You can attack right afterwards to stop their autopilot... you can also jump up to escape their pressure. You can do this on normal block too but it would be better to get in the habit of IBing. Literally this feels like an all out air battle to me lol your air normals are better than his so I'd use them to most advantage I could. His mobility is good as well. 5c is good but it has it's issues because all he has to do is jump and use d nails to bait it. My strategy in this match up (share if you have other ideas) is use my air normals because he really can't do too much about them except use a well timed 5a or his drive.

[Moy_X7]

Yup, air-to-air and jump ins are the way to go against Bang. You don't have to worry about him 2A'ing you out of your j.Cs like you do with other characters (Jin, Ragna, Hazama, etc.)

[Solex]

this is a message from your friendly neighborhood black man(huey253) this is actually directed at ragnas but it is still very helpful

Key Frame Data for Bang Pressure

5A - 6 frame startup - 0 on block (jc on block)

2A - 8 frame startup - -2 on block

6A - 17 frame startup - +1 on block (jc on block)

5B - 10 frame startup - -2 on block

2B - 13 frame startup - -6 on block (jc on block)

2C - 13 frame startup - -4 on block

5C - 18 frame startup (hits overhead on frame 24) - -8 on block (jc on block)

TK Dnails - 9 frame startup (+ 4 frames of jump startup) - +6 on block

623B - 16 frame startup - -7 on block

This is a guide to help defend againist Bang's standard ground pressure as Ragna.

Most Bang players will try to approach on the ground with 5A and 5B. A well timed 5B will beat both and lead into HF ender. If you feel that your ground footsies are superior to the Bang player, try getting even closer with 5B so that you can score a good combo with proper confirm. Ragna's 2B will go under both Bang's 5A and 5B, so it is good at for ground footsies as well. Bang's 2B, at 13 frames, is much slower than Ragna's 5B/2B, but it hits to the ground, and Bang's hitbox retracts really fast. 5C is really risky to use as a poke vs Bang, so its much safer to go with 5B. Bang's reward on standing CH 5B is higher than Ragna's, so don't recklessly approach him.

Assuming the Bang player gets in at some point, you have to figure out how to deal with his pressure. From Bang's 5A, he has a couple of choices. He can do 5A x N for stagger pressure, 5A 2A to keep you honest on defense, 5A 6A to try to ghetto reset pressure, or 5A 5B for the most standard of play. If you can iB Bang's 5A properly, it really limits his options to 5A 2A and 5A 5B. Bang's 5A does not chain into itself, so he must recover and do it again if he chooses to do so. The two major ways of dealing with 5A x N and 5A 6A pressure are using barrier defense to push him out really fast or IBing 5A or 6A and hitting 2A after it. Bang's main options of stopping you from doing 2A after IBing 6A are TK Dnails or 2C. TK Dnails have really awful proration, and 2C is techable so Bang doesn't get anything other than an unconfirmable 623B. If the Bang player is uses 5A 5C, you should hit him out of it via 2A or Inferno Divider. Bang's 5A is the main source of grab/command grab attempts. If you sense a small pause after Bang's 5A, you should backdash or jump if you think the command grab is coming. The best way to stop command grab attemps are with barrier or poking out with 2A.

After Bang gets to 5B, this is where is becomes complicated. Bang's 5B is his only useful normal that he is able to late chain with, and it has enough blockstun to create frametraps. However, the hitstop of the move is big enough where that it obvious If the Bang player didn't chain into another normal, which is a good chance to take pressure via 2A. However, assuming the Bang player decides to use his 5B, his main options are 5B 6A, 5B 5C, 5B 2B, and 5B 2C. 5B 6A is useful for resetting pressure only if the Bang player is really close, and can be stopped by barriering 5B. If Bang chains into any of his normals off of 5B, it is either gapless or auto frame trap. 5B 5C is the mash safe blockstring into overhead (still loses to Inferno Divider). If he uses this string, he will be pushed out too far to the point that he would barely be able to combo off overhead (which leads into nonexistant damage midscreen). 5B 2C is to keep you honest in the blockstring (should be blocking low and reacting high) but leaves Bang in a bad spot, so it won't be used often. 5B 2B is the most commonly used string that allows him to go to Dnails. The best way to deal with 5B in general is by barriering the move to limit his options after it.

Bang's 2A is actually kinda bad in pressure. Usually, most Bang players will continue to 5B after 5A 2A, 5A 2AA, 2A, or 2AA (can gatling 2A twice on hit or block) due to the move being negative on block. For some reason, it is pretty easy to react to Bang's 2A's recovery, so it is really bad for resetting pressure. It is a 8 frame low, and it usually for keeping the opponent honest on their blocking. Bang's 2A is level 0, so command grab attempts will most likely come off of this move occasionally. If you barrier Bang's 2A, he cannot command grab you after it unless he does a purple one, or does it really close to you. Normal grab attempts for Bang are strong off of this normal.

Bang's 6A is really good on paper, but is generally only okay in actual functionality. His main options off 6A are reset into 5A pressure, gatling into 2C or jump cancel into TK Dnails. Bang's 6A is +1 on block, so it is ESSENTIAL that you MUST IB this move. If there is any move in Bang's pressure that you must IB, it is this one. iBing 6A shuts down Bang's realistic options because 6A 2C has to be done relatively fast, and 6A TK Dnails is only to call out 2A mash (with very low reward). If Bang does 6A and doesn't gatling into 2C immediately, the best option after INSTANT BLOCKING 6A is to 2A and start pressure. Avoid barriering this move unless you must, it is pretty much a pressure ender if you can consistently instant block.

Bang's 2B is mainly used for gatling into 2C for end of blockstring or going into TK Dnails. If you barrier 2B 2C, Bang can't do anything to keep you in blockstun after that unless he rapid cancels. 2C is -4 on block, so it is the realistic end of his pressure. TK Dnails are +6, but we'll get to how to dealing with them in a second. You can Inferno Divider through the TK Dnails if you know they are coming.

Bang's 2C is Bang's second low attack, which leads into no damage due to the move being techable. Bang can connect 623B if he does it without confirming if 2C hits, so it is a pretty risky thing to do. Usually the end of Bang's pressure unless he feels like pushing his luck. This is another move that you should IB as well. If you do, it greatly limits Bang's options and allows you to punish with Inferno Divider if close up (safe to do unless they RC) or 2A, which is risky due to the fact that Bang can still technically gatling into 2C.

Bang's 623B is usually for only frame trapping, and taking away a primer. It is unsafe on block and should be punish with 5B on instant block. You can get a 2A on normal block if you are close enough. This is an important move to instant block. Bang can late chain into 623B from 2C late to increase to pushback to prevent a punish from occuring. If you IB Bang's 2C, the fastest 623B possible is the only way to catch a 2A punish of 2C, which means you should wait a quick second before pulling the trigger on 2A. Bang's damage off FC 623B is under 3k without meter, even in the corner. Overall a very risky move to use in Bang's pressure.

Bang's 5C is overhead and has gatlings into 6A, 2C, 5D, and 623B. 5D and 623B are punishable on block by Inferno Divider and 2A, so they really shouldn't be using these gatlings on block. 5D is - 15, so you can actually get a really good punish if Bang uses that move on block. He can gatling 5D into 623B, but it ends up leaving him at -7 and -10 if you instant block it. He can only do 5C 6A super close to the opponent, and it doesn't even work if you barrier him out (6A wiffs unless you are standing pretty much on each other). 5C 2C is pretty useless on block, so the Bang player will most likely jump/instant air dash or do TK Dnails.

Tiger Knee D-Nails are Bang's most useful tool for resetting pressure. They are supposed to be really good, and they cost 3 nails so they end up being +6. There are a couple things you can do about them. You can instant block them and jump or backdash if the Bang player isn't right next to you. You can Inferno Divider through them if you are sure that they are coming and you are in range. If Bang is really close to you, you just have to let him continue his pressure. If Bang is greater than a character's length away, you can IB the D-Nails and 2A him out of his 5A. There is one thing that prevents this from always happening. Sometimes, one of the Dnails will bounce on the ground much later than the other two, and hit you on block later. This means that the TK Dnails have become much more than +6 on block, so do not do anything if this happens. You can't really stop this from happening, and it kinda sucks when it does. Other than that, Bang is using alot of resources to use TK Dnails, so its supposed to be his move to get free pressure.

TL DR VERSION: BARRIER 5A/5B/2A/2B/5C INSTANT BLOCK 6A/2C/623B and TK DNAILS ARE STRONG.

(I wrote this pretty late so sorry for any grammar errors)

the most basic thing i did to fight bang was learn to recognize the moves 6a,5c, and 623b once your comfortable with recognizing those moves and when that specific bang will like to use them you can dp a, dp c, or dp d for a out, also it will help you fight his mixup

[Fluck]

Something that's worth knowing: After 2A, there's a gap into anything else Bang does. You can interrupt the blockstring with Hirensou.