[CS2] Jin vs Carl

[Yuushiro]

Going to update these as I have time to gather information from people’s and my own experience and translate what the Japanese are saying in the wiki or BBS

For now you guys can discuss the matchup here.

Basic/Matchup overview:

long-distance:

mid range:

short range:

Best tools:

Best way to pressure:

Their strategy vs us:

Best overall strategy:

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

A few things I learned for this match up (if anyone has an opposing style to this method then by all means share if it's effective). You are going to zone him... it's another one of those match ups. It's just too risky to go balls to the wall because all it takes is one screw in order for you to be caught in his unblockable...

Long distance: jc, ice swords, jb (situational for a reason I'll explain further down)

Mid range: jc, 5c, 5b,

close range: 2a, 5b mix up, ect

Best tools: jc, 5c, 623a, 2a aa

Best way to pressure: go all out, use everything you got to trip him up. 5b mix up, j236d cross up, tick throws, etc.

Their Strategy: Mostly, they will hide behind Nirvana and just let her try to get in on you; they use that opportunity to get closer. With Nirvana positioned right in front of carl they are permitted to jump and such without much you can do about it. If you are attacking Nirvana during one of her moves, the carl player might be anticipating this and use 5c to get a CH. They will use 41246d for Nirvana to get extremely close will attacking. This also gives them the opportunity to airdash to you. If you try to jump in on them they have three options: one, use 6a. Two, ja (PLEASE NOTE: respect this normal. It is the fastest ja in the game. It will more than likely stop all your air normals in most situations but there are ways to get past this). And three, use 623d.

Watch for carl's j2c cross up. In pressure it will usually follow after 5b, 5a, or 2a. Sometimes they might try to use it after they get close enough from 41236d. Another thing that is pretty scary is carl's j2c(rc)<ja. It's extremely fast so if carl is really high above you, he uses j2c and he has 50 heat just remain blocking high until he actually lands. Now this is the annoying situation: when you are between carl and Nirvana. The things to really look out for are the 4d 236a cross up and the 2d 6b mix up (it can be an unblockable if the carl is knows how to time it. They can also substitute 6b with 2a). During rhapsody of memories he will use the 236a cross up and the j2c cross up.

Our strategy: as I said earlier, if anyone has a style besides zoning that is effective please contribute. Now you want to zone him until you find the perfect opportunity to get into close range. Earlier I said something about jb being situational, this is how: say he uses 41236d you can double jump (or sj) and as you fall down use jb. Depending on how far carl is he can't do much about that. What he may try to jump after you and use jb or 2a. Both will beat jb if he is close so if this is the case I would just block or airdash back (that's if you super jumped, which is preferred). Uses ice swords wisely and don't spam them. Nirvana has guard point against them so if you're too close you'll get hit. Abuse jc, carl can literally do nothing about this because of its range plus it stops Nirvana from a distance. If you you're close to Nirvana and he activates her throw out 5a, 5b, ot 5c to stop her move. Be cautious though because carl could be right behind her and use 5c to get a CH. If carl tries to iad use 623a, 5b aa, or 2a aa

Once you see that he isn't using Nirvana while you're in front of her try rushing him down. A neat trick my carl friend told me is the 421C+A+B OS. Say he tries to use the j2c cross up. If he does the cross up, you're C dp will come out. If he doesn't do the cross up and just continues pressure you will barrier. You can also do this with yukikaze and the D dp. Overall, just be safe. Don't do anything risky that would get you between carl and his doll because that's where he wants you.

[Tonberry]

A neat trick my carl friend told me is the 421C+A+B OS. Say he tries to use the j2c cross up. If he does the cross up, you're C dp will come out.

Are you sure this works with C dp? I tested it and I always get throw. I know it works fine with D dp.

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

Are you sure this works with C dp? I tested it and I always get throw. I know it works fine with D dp.

I was a little unsure about it myself lol I thought I was doing it wrong or something but seeing as how you're not getting it either then I guess it's only D dp. He told me C dp but maybe he meant the D version.

[Jake D]

You left out some crucial stuff vs Carl. Learn the timing on how to Dp>RC out of Carl unblockable setup. If you dont know how to escape that then just put the controller down and wait for the next round. Also you should be poking at Nirvana with 5a, 5c and jc but do it smart. If you get to predictable with poking nirvana, Carl has a few ways to deal with you such as kara fastfall and 4D. When Nirvana health is very low your able to play a bit more aggressively because Carl will be less likely to use her at neutral. If your going to take a risk make sure you have atleast 50 heat incase you get caught in his unblockable. When you get Carl scared to activate Nirvana thats when he opens up a bit. Overall this match is even imo. Just make it hard for carl to approach, save 50 heat and play smart. Learning the timing on dp>Rc is crucial

[Solex]

Learning the timing on dp>Rc is crucial

good shit Jake but i have just one question is this the c dp or d dp cause i imagine with the c dp he could just land and backdash or just walk back to whiff bait...im guessing you could rapid off of the doll as the doll should be in the middle of 3d but the carl will still get you in pressure and while thats better than just eating the unblock you could just ice arrow it and avoid the possible os and make the carl commit to the bait unless he wants to eat 4-5k. of course this is assuming that carl can whiff bait c dp by walking back

[vanfleihight]

good shit Jake but i have just one question is this the c dp or d dp cause i imagine with the c dp he could just land and backdash or just walk back to whiff bait...im guessing you could rapid off of the doll as the doll should be in the middle of 3d but the carl will still get you in pressure and while thats better than just eating the unblock you could just ice arrow it and avoid the possible os and make the carl commit to the bait unless he wants to eat 4-5k. of course this is assuming that carl can whiff bait c dp by walking back

I don't think this is something you need to worry about. It's just safer and easier for the Carl to just block if they suspect a reversal is coming rather than attempt a backdash and possibly getting hit for it. Trying to ice arrow would be the most risky. If you get blocked, you have no meter to rapid and just get put back into the unblockable again. You also have twice as many things to input to get an arrow than you would just inputting 623C for a DP and potentially mess up the timing.

Also my contribution to the thread:

Carl has a retarded/silly/gimmicky throw reject setup you should probably know about.

Basically it goes like Blockstring > Nirvana pink throw > you tech > Carl throws > you've already teched once and can't tech again for some frames and so get thrown anyway.

Just tech Nirvana's throw and jump out. Sounds simple but you feel so stupid the first time it gets done on you.

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

@Jake, yeah I forgot to mention a few things.

@Solex, it's the C dp. The D dp requires 75 heat in order to RC. Like Jake said the C dp works best in this situation. And he won't even need to backdash. If the carl uses jc and holds 1 afterwards your dp will whiff and carl will just go into block. It's mot really an OS but it kind of is: you do nothing and he restarts the loop. You try to dp and he will just block.

@Van, nice info. I had no idea it took a few frames in order for you to tech again.

[Solex]

well the main possibility that bugged me was that if you do c dp and carl makes it whiff while you rapid off of Nirvana than he can hit you with an attack for pressure and your meter was wasted but as i thought about it more i think all of the reversals are all good options against carls unblock for many different reasons.

my main advice in this match up is to use your heat defensively and only for damage when you are gonna kill him since his health is so low