[CS2] Hazama vs Tager

[Zeron_X25]

Tager mains, if you are reading this, you should just pick up Hazama. Maybe at least Hakumen for proper defensive play :3

I main Tager. Get @ me.

[mikenapalm]

I main Tager. Get @ me.

Your Tager is pretty fun to play against. The last time we played I was hoping youd pick him against my Hazama but you didn't ;-;

[Zeron_X25]

Your Tager is pretty fun to play against. The last time we played I was hoping youd pick him against my Hazama but you didn't ;-;

wtf? I remember playing Tager against you. Maybe I was training with my sub?

[mikenapalm]

I remember you played Tager against the guy who's room we were in. But I don't remember you picking him against me. Lol. But my memory is ass so I could be wrong.

[Ingwaz]

Alright, heres the deal. I am a hazama player, i'm probably about average skill wise, i train to improve but i've still got a long way to go for obvious reasons. My older brother on the other hand is a tager player. I don't think he trains. Hes the type of person who thinks any tactic in a fighting game that can get you a win is not cheap/scrubby or w/e you want to call it. So basically, if we were playing street fighter or MvC3 hed pick blaster types and just hadouken all day. Heres my problem, he plays tager and while he doesn't know his combos for crap, he does know that if he manages to land a hit on me that knocks me down then he can just gadget finger and go for the command throw. and then of course he gadget fingers again, and does it again, and again, or he might throw in a low hit just to mix it up a little and after said low hit guess what? gadget finger again and command throw again. I try to get out of this any way that I can but I don't really know what to do. I've managed to jump away from it a few times but it seems like half the time i try to jump he somehow manages to get the throw in before the controls even respond.

so, its pissing me off something fierce. I'm basically getting trolled by somebody who does not spend any time practicing, learning any combos and just relies on tager's command throw and GETB. I can't tell you how many times i've had almost half health, hes been pretty much dead and he somehow manages to pull off a getb and then its all over, the whole match, game changer right there.

Somebody help me out here, sure, I don't spend hours a day training but I do train and I do advance my combos but he does not. I don't think its right for him to be able to troll me like that and theres nothing I can do about it. Theres got to be something.

another tip i could use, he sledges like theres no tomorrow, hes overly aggressive for a tager player.

[Nini Heart]

Backdash. If he's throwing you before you can back dash, you can TECH the pink throw. Or delay tech, wait till he pink throws you, and tech.

If he's mashing sledges, 3C is your best friend. Beats sledge clean and leads to half life combos.

Hazama is easily one of Tager's worst matchup. He shouldn't be giving you any trouble honestly.

[Zeron_X25]

Alright, heres the deal. I am a hazama player, i'm probably about average skill wise, i train to improve but i've still got a long way to go for obvious reasons. My older brother on the other hand is a tager player. I don't think he trains. Hes the type of person who thinks any tactic in a fighting game that can get you a win is not cheap/scrubby or w/e you want to call it. So basically, if we were playing street fighter or MvC3 hed pick blaster types and just hadouken all day. Heres my problem, he plays tager and while he doesn't know his combos for crap, he does know that if he manages to land a hit on me that knocks me down then he can just gadget finger and go for the command throw. and then of course he gadget fingers again, and does it again, and again, or he might throw in a low hit just to mix it up a little and after said low hit guess what? gadget finger again and command throw again. I try to get out of this any way that I can but I don't really know what to do. I've managed to jump away from it a few times but it seems like half the time i try to jump he somehow manages to get the throw in before the controls even respond.

so, its pissing me off something fierce. I'm basically getting trolled by somebody who does not spend any time practicing, learning any combos and just relies on tager's command throw and GETB. I can't tell you how many times i've had almost half health, hes been pretty much dead and he somehow manages to pull off a getb and then its all over, the whole match, game changer right there.

Somebody help me out here, sure, I don't spend hours a day training but I do train and I do advance my combos but he does not. I don't think its right for him to be able to troll me like that and theres nothing I can do about it. Theres got to be something.

another tip i could use, he sledges like theres no tomorrow, hes overly aggressive for a tager player.

Here's how you play this matchup. You hit him once then you run away for the entire rest of the game. You know why you get GETB'd and the match changes around? Because you're not supposed to bother pressuring him after you've done significant amounts of damage.

[Ingwaz]

so, when he goes for the command throw its basically a guessing game? Backdash but watch out for the command throw just in case. Of course he can also go for a hit which unless i'm seriously mistaken, backdashing wont block that. I know i've got the advantage here. When I start to lay in to him, that much is obvious and I have turned a few matches where I had almost no health left around and won them.

How am I supposed to just run though? Tager is a big fighter, got decent reach with sledge hammer and like I said, he sledges all day long. If he sledges and I see it coming and block then I can hit him with a 3c and go for a jabaki but if I risk going for it on the first sledge then he can hit me with the 2nd, he does like to use the 2nd quite a bit. Here's his list of moves he uses, I don't know the commands or names for many of them so I'll just describe the ones I dont.

He likes to jump and do the elbow drop or the downward double palm drop. He sledges, a lot. If I try and get some space he will probably do his guage charge move, which is indeed punishable and I usually try to take advantage of it. beyond that, he does the move where tager drops and kicks both his legs out or his arms out, hits me with a gadget finger, then it will most likely be the command throw. recently I've been mixing it up and trying to jump away from it but like i said, for some reason I don't jump in time, perhaps i've got the timing off but hes also learned from this and taken to doing tagers move where he thrusts his arms upwards which is apparently air unblockable and after that its the atomic collider and then i just end up getting the gadget finger again.

He has pretty much no combos, at the very most, a 3 hit one

admittedly, I am an aggressive fighter, but that seems to be what works best as you have to keep the pressure on. My brother on the other hand has always been defensive and like said, if he can, he blasts non stop.

So, please give me some tips, advice, what ever you want to call it. If i think hes not going for the command grab, should I use 2a? 5a? 3c? what? if he is, jump? I'll have to start jumping with a barrier up as that fixes the air unblockable problem. if he goes for the downward hit whats a good option?

I need some help here. I'm not some top notch player, I'm not even a "good" player per se but I'm working on it and I study situations and videos and I do learn. I just need some help from people who know more than I do.

I reall do not like to run an entire match, I'd be happy for the tips on it that way i can if necessary, but it just does not sit well with me. I understand that is indeed playing smart but I dunno. I'm not really at the point where I can do a "significant" amount of damage, particularly considering it is tager and his health is obscene so hopefully you've got some advice for me as when I lay in to him hard it seems to go a lot better than when i try to stay on the defensive.

[Zeron_X25]

so, when he goes for the command throw its basically a guessing game? Backdash but watch out for the command throw just in case. Of course he can also go for a hit which unless i'm seriously mistaken, backdashing wont block that. I know i've got the advantage here. When I start to lay in to him, that much is obvious and I have turned a few matches where I had almost no health left around and won them.

How am I supposed to just run though? Tager is a big fighter, got decent reach with sledge hammer and like I said, he sledges all day long. If he sledges and I see it coming and block then I can hit him with a 3c and go for a jabaki but if I risk going for it on the first sledge then he can hit me with the 2nd, he does like to use the 2nd quite a bit. Here's his list of moves he uses, I don't know the commands or names for many of them so I'll just describe the ones I dont.

He likes to jump and do the elbow drop or the downward double palm drop. He sledges, a lot. If I try and get some space he will probably do his guage charge move, which is indeed punishable and I usually try to take advantage of it. beyond that, he does the move where tager drops and kicks both his legs out or his arms out, hits me with a gadget finger, then it will most likely be the command throw. recently I've been mixing it up and trying to jump away from it but like i said, for some reason I don't jump in time, perhaps i've got the timing off but hes also learned from this and taken to doing tagers move where he thrusts his arms upwards which is apparently air unblockable and after that its the atomic collider and then i just end up getting the gadget finger again.

He has pretty much no combos, at the very most, a 3 hit one

admittedly, I am an aggressive fighter, but that seems to be what works best as you have to keep the pressure on. My brother on the other hand has always been defensive and like said, if he can, he blasts non stop.

So, please give me some tips, advice, what ever you want to call it. If i think hes not going for the command grab, should I use 2a? 5a? 3c? what? if he is, jump? I'll have to start jumping with a barrier up as that fixes the air unblockable problem. if he goes for the downward hit whats a good option?

I need some help here. I'm not some top notch player, I'm not even a "good" player per se but I'm working on it and I study situations and videos and I do learn. I just need some help from people who know more than I do.

I reall do not like to run an entire match, I'd be happy for the tips on it that way i can if necessary, but it just does not sit well with me. I understand that is indeed playing smart but I dunno. I'm not really at the point where I can do a "significant" amount of damage, particularly considering it is tager and his health is obscene so hopefully you've got some advice for me as when I lay in to him hard it seems to go a lot better than when i try to stay on the defensive.

Good Tagers shouldn't be sledging against you because they will get 3C'ed everytime they do. Tager's combos are longer than 3 hits so I dunno what you're talking about and I don't see the relevance. What you can do with the elbow drop is: 1- 2C it. 2- 214D~B it. 3- Block or Instant Block it and punish.

As for GF mixup this is how it works. It definitely is a gamble and can pay off for Tager if he makes good reads but it's still favorable for Hazama.

Here's how GF works:

What Tager can do after GF:

1. 5A: Beats your 5A mash, DP attempt and jump. Loses to Houtenjin and backdash.

2. 5C: Beats back dash. Beats 3C. Loses to Houtenjin.

3. 6A: Beats back dash and DP. Loses to 3C and Houtenjin.

4. Atomic Collider: Unblockable grab in the air. Beats jumps.

5. Blocking: Beats everything except wake up dash command grab from Hazama.

6. Jump grab: Beats jump. Very little risk.

7. 360A: Beats A mash. Loses to DP and jump. Makes Houtenjin whiff and/or grabs you after it whiffs if he holds it down. Loses to backdash(?) or not. I'm sure it catches backdashes but for some reason, it doesn't catch my backdash when I try it in training mode...

8. 360B: Loses to A mash. Sometimes beats A mash depending on when you mash A. Loses to Houtenjin. Loses to backdash. Loses to jump. Beats every other move you try to mash out.

9. 720/GETB: Loses/Beats Houtenjin depending on whose super flash came out first. Whichever comes out last wins. Beats all mashing and backdash. Loses to jump.

10. Magna tech wheel/MTW: This will beat everything you do except jump and block and block on ground. The last hit is in overhead so you have to block high. He can immediately rapid MTW into a scary mixup which is usually a 360A or B. It will not blue beat if he rapids immediately on the first hits of MTW and does a 360.

btw I'm not mentioning command grab in any of these situations except when the Tager blocks. Go figure that out yourself. Although it does beat quite a few of his options, it's generally not safe to try to command grab Tager after GF.

[Ingwaz]

care to do me a favor and clarify what DP stands for? Dragon punch? guessing jabaki/venom sword then

did you mean to say that tager's combos aren't more than 3 hits?

if yes, I've seen tager combos go on for longer than just 3 hits many times.

if no, I was trying to give a little insight as to his abilities.

[Zeron_X25]

did you mean to say that tager's combos aren't more than 3 hits?

Tager's combos are longer than 3 hits so I dunno what you're talking about

... I'm not sure much more clear I could've said that. There was no sarcasm in my post.

care to do me a favor and clarify what DP stands for? Dragon punch? guessing jabaki/venom sword then

DP stands for dragon punch. DP is a move with invincibility frames (Mostly on startup). Jabaki is not a DP. 214D~B is a DP.

[Dusty]

214D~B is a DP.

This is debatable. Everyone knows that flash kick isn't a "True DP", right dustloop?......right?

[Zeron_X25]

This is debatable. Everyone knows that flash kick isn't a "True DP", right dustloop?......right?

It's true if you're already in stance.

It clashes with Jin's DPs and beats his D DP so it's legit in my book. And taking Tager into account, it's legit.

[Ingwaz]

... I'm not sure much more clear I could've said that. There was no sarcasm in my post.

DP stands for dragon punch. DP is a move with invincibility frames (Mostly on startup). Jabaki is not a DP. 214D~B is a DP.

I wasn't suggesting sarcasm, thought it was possibly a typo.

[yashanyu1]

I'd shit bricks if jabaki had Invul

[Shazam]

Now this thread truly is the longest... :8/:

[mikenapalm]

So many ways to say fuck you to Tager, so little time.

[CaseOak]

One problem I have with this match-up: B-Sledge spam. Am I wrong in thinking that B-Sledge can be canceled into itself? If so, how do I punish?

[Zeron_X25]

One problem I have with this match-up: B-Sledge spam. Am I wrong in thinking that B-Sledge can be canceled into itself? If so, how do I punish?

Don't extend your chains too much. If he can't hit your chains, he poses no threat. You can special cancel your own chains too if you're on the ground. Just don't try to approach him. Play the cat and mouse game and he'll eventually slip up trying to super jump C towards you.

[mikenapalm]

One problem I have with this match-up: B-Sledge spam. Am I wrong in thinking that B-Sledge can be canceled into itself? If so, how do I punish?

Partially wrong. The recovery of A Sledge can be cancelled into B sledge.

Instead of using chains to stop him throw out 3C and get that juicy Counter Hit and confirm into whatever you want.

If he starts to wise up to it, be ready to hit 2C on a delay to beat his j.2C. If you hit it in reaction to his jump you'll end up whiffing due to the way j.2C moves his hurtbox up more in the air. If you miss and ends up next to you, Jump!!

This match can be annoying as Tager has a tools to get through projectiles abuse. You have to really teach yourself not to rely on D like you would in other match ups. You want to stay out of his long reach or get around his moves and put him in your reach. Your normals are faster and he has to respect them as long as you play smart.

[kid viper]

what's this? tager's doing a b sledge?

lemme just....

-Gold burst, yay free 50% meter and knock him away full screen again.

-3c, yay free 50% meter and strong damage and he still gets knocked away.

oh shit, i already threw a chain out... lemme just...

-cancel into 214d~b, yay free counter hit!

-cancel into jayoku, yay free trade and i still get the 50% meter!

[mikenapalm]

Cancel into 236C works as well. I love having options to say fuck your shit.