[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[gli]

Please Read Before Posting:

Previous loketest changes are not to be discussed here.

Only discuss her final changes.

I will compile a list of all her (known) changes in this post.

As is the nature of a new release, beginning information will likely have questionable accuracy.

Buffs

• 6C damage increased
  
• j.2C is special cancellable on hit
  
• 5A (2 hits) damage increased to 450
  
• 6B counterhit has wallbound properties
  
• j.B hitbox changed to extend more downward
  
  
  Nerfs
  
  • 6B jump cancel is gone
    
  • 2C guard point comes out later (frame 5)
    
  • Level 2 j.2C no longer breaks a primer
    
  • 4B can only be used once in a gatling
    
  • Proration of normal moves changed (2C a notable one)
    
  • Reduced untech time on Tiny Lobelia counterhit
    
  • Character Combo Rate decreased (85% to 75%)
    
  • Overall damage slightly decreased
    
  • 5CC no longer breaks a primer
    
  • Tempest Dahlia wind regen reduced
    

  What do these changes mean for us?

  [*]The ability to special cancel j.2C gives us "CT style" okizeme back (j.2C > pumpkin). This is a much safer option than having to cancel into 2A whiff upon landing.

  [*]Reduced proration of normals forces us to cut short certain lengthy combos (mostly corner combos).

  [*]2C changes make it less spammable. If you relied on this, this might be a problem.

[kirbster]

I abused 6b jump cancel so much today that I don't know how I'll manage without it

[TD]

rach is a again. possibly s??? dunno about you guys, but l think now that she got ct j2c back, she is going to be be the loli people dont want to trifle with

[Kuuhaku]

Looks like so far sizable damage nerf unless the JPN Rachel players are trolling. Many OTZ.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Rachel will never be S again *snuff*

About 6B jump-cancel gone: I play CT to get used to gone 6B jc and using 5A for mixups.

[TD]

rach dont need damage. well, not dumb damage. hey, at least her bnb's have increased damage due to 6c. by how much, we'll see. but she looks promising.

at the very least, with all the system changes, her rather small changes, and the other character's changes, she's still looking very playable.

im just really hype about the j2c thing. no more having to do really risky guesses that usually dont even turn out the way l wanted.

[Kuuhaku]

Uh... for future reference, the reason why we're saying this is the Final Changes discussion and not the Loketest discussion is only changes that have actually been posted as part of the final build should be discussed.

j.2C being air cancellable does seem to have stayed. I kind of want to see what new affect 6B CH has as it's kind of clear it's not blow back anymore.

[kirbster]

Oh I thought it was blowback, but still wallbounced if in the corner (sort of like her grab). Do you have the link to those Japanese discussions pl0x?

[Kuuhaku]

No link, but random stuff NeoZero has been pulling from the JBBS. One combo posted was 6B CH 4D 5B as a midscreen combo which would not work if 6B CH was still blow back.

The idea that Rachel has been pretty significantly damage nerfed is because a combo posted on the JBBS as doing 3k does 3.8k in CS2.

[LordPangTong]

rach dont need damage. well, not dumb damage. hey, at least her bnb's have increased damage due to 6c. by how much, we'll see. but she looks promising.

at the very least, with all the system changes, her rather small changes, and the other character's changes, she's still looking very playable.

im just really hype about the j2c thing. no more having to do really risky guesses that usually dont even turn out the way l wanted.

^ this. Rachel gets good enough mixup and oki, and even moreso now that old j.2C is coming back. Losing some damage honestly doesn't concern me that much either in this case. Just as long as something like CS1 doesn't happen again.

On the 6B CH follow up note, I wonder if something like CS1 can work again likeee 6B (CH) 236A 1D BBL/214C. I would support this

[Tari]

I wonder if 6B causes float now or something? Ugh, I want videos.

[[SpA]Relentless]

No link, but random stuff NeoZero has been pulling from the JBBS. One combo posted was 6B CH 4D 5B as a midscreen combo which would not work if 6B CH was still blow back.

Sounds to me like CH 6B has normal wallbounce even midscreen (think CT/CS1 Bang 623B), and 4D is used to increase that bounce for a midscreen followup. So the old translation of wallbound was probably wrong.

[Kuuhaku]

Uh... not really. It probably did wall bound but since that was the loketest it might have changed in the final build.

3C C cannon works on Ragna, Noel, Litchi, Lambda, Makoto. On Hakumen, Platinum, and Valkenhayn, you need to add 5A (probably to follow up 'cuz of hitbox reasons).

I think? they did something to make Makoto easier to combo for Rachel. 6B CH is harder to use (it's the most discussed change so far). j.2C I'm like 95% sure is special cancellable on air hit. A cannon whiff into level 3 j.2C looks like it stayed dead.

[Kurumster]

If j.2c is really back, I'll be playing this game again.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Uh... not really. It probably did wall bound but since that was the loketest it might have changed in the final build.

For Hakumen there was a move (I think Renka) that had added wallbounce property (and it could be seen in a loketest video) but it was translated as wallbound. Thought it could've been this way for Rachel too.

Doesn't matter now anymore though. Final build is what counts.

[Kuuhaku]

南瓜の補正きつく

蛙のダメージ低下

リリーのダメージ低下

2Cのダメージ低下

6Bの補正きつく

とりあえずダメージ系で分かったのはこれぐらい

Uh... the only parts of that I understand are 2C, BBL, and frog all got damage nerfed.

BBL nerf sounds like it's just body BBL. Someone asked if BBL rod damage is no longer sadness.

[[SpA]Relentless]

I really hope rod lily got buffed again. I like the idea of sacrificing pole oki for the possibility of a more damaging super but in CS2 there really was no reason at all to not use sword iris for meterless combos/oki exclusively (maybe for a guardcrush setup, but even that was kind of iffy imo).

[Kuuhaku]

6B proration is worse. So hopefully that combo earlier that had a damage reduction from 3.8k to 3k is just due to 6B being ass. Pumpkin proration is also now worse.

避雷針だけで4ヒット420ダメですた

バングに5B＞3D＞JBあたるようになった

Something something rods 4 hits (I think BBL rods) 420 damage. So... despite it being weaker than Sword Iris, it now does less damage.

5B 3D j.B something on Bang

Overall weaker. :V

[Chazmobile]

Those changes to BBL and frog make me kinda sad. Then I remember that j.2c is air cancellable and everything is happy again.

I'm sure she'll be fine, we just need to wait and see how this pans out.

Edit: That being said I really hope the damage nerf isn't that severe. It's not like she was cranking out absolutely absurd numbers in CS2 anyway. (kinda)

[Kuuhaku]

JAの補正は変わらず

JAから5000

5B始動50％8000は確認

ゲージ回収も特に変化なし

端避雷針＆風ありでJ2C>南瓜>空ｱｲﾘｽ>2D>JAで各種受け身に対応

無敵技は読めばﾊﾞﾘｶﾞ2Dで大丈夫？着地硬直で無理かも

Wind regen unchanged is about all I understand from this. But this post might be bogus because with BBL nerf I don't see how you can get 5k off of j.A and 8k off of 5B with 50 meter.

[Tari]

追加C、J2CLv2のガープラ削り消えて、4B>5B>4Bも出来なくなって(4Bはガト中1回？)、いよいよガークラ狙えないキャラになったな…

questionable translations from me:

- j.2C (lvl2) no longer removes primer

- 4B > 5B > 4B no longer works (4B may be restricted to once per gatling)

- more and more, Rachel is becoming a character that does not aim for guard crush

[Soniti]

JAの補正は変わらず

JAから5000

5B始動50％8000は確認

ゲージ回収も特に変化なし

Well, I can confirm polka's understanding of those is correct, and add that the first line says that j.a is also unchanged (i'm assuming it means you can use it for an instant overhead still).

That damage sounds way too crazy for day 1 though. Perhaps it is just someone trolling BBS.

[calendula]

Aside from j.2c being air cancelable, has there been news about its proration ?

[Kuuhaku]

Yeah. Pretty sure it's trolling. Disclaimer- I'm using google translate and trying to piece together things that make sense.

Someone posted 2C and 100% meter is like 4.4k.

・プラス要素

6Cのダメージが気持ち上がったかも

J2C空中キャンセル可

・マイナス要素

コンボレート低下

一部通常技補正悪化

6Bjc不可、硬直増加

2CGP発生鈍化

追加C、J2CLv2のプライマー削り削除

4Bがガトリング中1回だけに

リリー、ダリアダメージ低下

Buffs

6C does more damage

j.2C is special cancellable on air hit

Nerfs

Character Combo Rate decreased

Normals got hitbox nerf

6B jump cancel is gone.

Something about 2C's primer breaking is changed (is that gone too?)/ might actually mean that 2C's guard point now comes later.

Level 2 j.2C no longer breaks a primer

4B can only be used once in a gatling

BBL and TD damage decreased

6C始動ならどんだけ伸ばそうと5B＞5CC繋がる

ただその後のBロベ＞5CC＞3C＞アイリス＞3C

の最後の3Cが超シビアになった気がする

BロベとCロベの空中ch、受身不能短くなってない？

Aロベ地上chは今までと同じくらいのけぞるけど空中が拾いづらかった

Other things I caught (not necessarily from this post)- Rachel's combo rate might have been decreased. A lot of people are posting that they're having a hard time extending combos (like in the post above the user said he tried using (6C?) 5B 5CC B cannon dash 5CC 3C Iris 3C and that seemed to be all you could do). Pumpkin might be level 1.

Cannons are now harder to combo off of CH. (Guy above posted asking if untechable time on B and C cannons on air CH has been decreased and that A cannon on CH seems harder to combo off of).

[LordPangTong]

Damn, so many nerfs. 4B being once per gatling makes me sad =/