[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[[SpA]Relentless]

You forgot 5CC not taking a primer in the nerf list btw, and that 2C prorates worse :3

[gli]

I'm getting to everything. Seems a lot was discussed while I was asleep (even in Skype)

[tofurr]

I wish I could Skype...

[Kuuhaku]

I'm getting to everything. Seems a lot was discussed while I was asleep (even in Skype)

TBH- No need to list that 2C prorates worse. At this point, I'm sure most of her normals prorate worse (at least that's what the translation of that note was supposed to mean instead of hitbox nerf). One thing to note is in one of the videos 5A 5B 5CDC frog 3C A cannon 6C j.C j.C Sword Iris BBL Level 3 j.2C Fatal Frog 5CC... player tried to do A cannon after this and it just straight up blue beat. When the second George hit, it was already at the minimum. Even if you take out the 6C j.C j.C Sword Iris and go straight into BBL, I think after the second George the only thing you could do would be 3C or maybe one last 5CC into pumpkin. Just a guesstimate though. Not entirely sure.

[[SpA]Relentless]

TBH- No need to list that 2C prorates worse. At this point, I'm sure most of her normals prorate worse (at least that's what the translation of that note was supposed to mean instead of hitbox nerf).

That's true, but I think it's still good to mention it alone because it's one of her important/special normals. It also doesn't just prorate a bit worse - the followup combo does like half damage now :3

[Tari]

@polka:

That combo was illegit in CS2, already, remember? It bluebeating after the 236A had nothing to do with proration and everything to do with the player's inability to wait for half a second before throwing the lobelia.

You can't continue the combo after George in CS2, even if you only throw one lobelia. I just tested it. There are too many hits. Same holds true if you replace '6C j.C j.C Iris BBL' with '6A BBL'.

CSEX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I#t=21m

CS2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiot2mUDS1g

I'm wondering how much worse her normal proration could have gotten in general, if that crappy combo did 3378 dmg in CS2 and still does 3245 in CSEX. Not only does the combo look to be untechable at the exact same points, there's also only a 4% decrease in damage overall, and we've been told her character combo rate is decreased as well.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Maybe they buffed the damage on her normals a bit but in exchange made the proration a little bit worse. That would explain why short combos deal more damage than in CS2 and why she still does similar damage despite getting several proration nerfs.

[tofurr]

That combo works in CS2 if you do:

5A, 5B, 5CDC, 214A, 5B, 236A, 6C, j.C, j.C, j.214C, BBL, Fatal Trick, 214A, 5CC, 236A, 66, 5CC, pumpkin

Also, fuck Makoto's hitbox.

[Tari]

That combo works in CS2 if you do:

5A, 5B, 5CDC, 214A, 5B, 236A, 6C, j.C, j.C, j.214C, BBL, Fatal Trick, 214A, 5CC, 236A, 66, 5CC, pumpkin

It also works if you do 3C (2 hits) 236A.

You simply can't continue combo-ing after the fatal j.2C > frog > 236A. You basically have to end with 5CC immediately after the first 236A or risk them teching out for free. In fact, depending on when you toss the 236A, you might not even be able to combo 5C(2) after that combo.

The only reason I recorded the combo the way I did was to match it up to the CSEX video exactly. It's interesting to note that the combo looks to have the same untechability, if that makes any sense. This is the main reason I'm wondering about prorate nerfs. Spa's idea is a pretty valid guess, but it doesn't explain how the combo can go on for the same duration. I'm too lazy to calculate the exact proration% the combo fall to in CS2, though.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Proration values probably only changed by a few percent so combo length doesn't get affected a lot.

Also as someone posted earlier, character combo rate doesn't have anything to do with untechable time, so can take that out of the equation.

[Tari]

Yeah, character combo rate has no effect on untech time. It's just that her overall proration couldn't have gotten significantly worse, or her extended combos would definitely not work the same way at all.

That said, I do remember seeing a change that said something like "blah > 5B 5CC dash 5B jc j.C 2D (lvl2) j.2C" combos don't work anymore. Does anyone remember what exactly that said, or if it's been proven true/false yet?

[Kuuhaku]

You can't continue the combo after George in CS2, even if you only throw one lobelia. I just tested it. There are too many hits. Same holds true if you replace '6C j.C j.C Iris BBL' with '6A BBL'.

Nope. Unless it's a Makoto only thing (I don't have Makoto unlocked, so I did it on Noel who has a somewhat equally fucked up hitbox) and I got 5A 5B 5CDC frog 3C (2 hits) A cannon 6A BBL Level 3 fatal frog 5CC A cannon A cannon (frog connected) 5CC and... something? (I think 3C sword iris 3C) but it all connected. But the big difference it is it was pretty clear in CSX that nothing would have connected after the second frog hit. In CS2, you can double cannon and a short ender and it all connects. Not sure about the 6C j.C j.C Sword Iris BBL blah blah blah. I'm kind of too lazy to test that atm. But 6A BBL does indeed work.

As for the doubts about proration- You also have to take into account that some of her normals got damage buffed (5A and 6C are the only ones I know of). If they were the same damage value, then there would be a much larger percentage of damage reduction. They're buffed in damage, but the combo does less damage overall.

EDIT: Lol NVM.

[Tari]

Even if the 6A variation works, the 6C j.C j.C variation does not, which is what he did. You can't make assumptions about a combo that wasn't performed.

The combo he did perform, I recreated tit for tat in CS2, bluebeats and all. It's the CS2 video link in the earlier post.

Anyway, I've never gotten George to activate after the second 236A, so I can't really say much about your 6A combo. It's a 100% viable combo with one 236A, though the 6C j.C j.C variation is also legit with one 236A into 5CC (but you can't really do anything after the 5CC in that combo).

Also, yeah, I'd forgotten that 6C is supposed to do a fair bit more damage in CSEX. The damage buffs would explain some of the numbers.

[kotokot]

That said, I do remember seeing a change that said something like "blah > 5B 5CC dash 5B jc j.C 2D (lvl2) j.2C" combos don't work anymore. Does anyone remember what exactly that said, or if it's been proven true/false yet?

i've seen something like this on jbbs and afair it was about looping this twice.

[Kuuhaku]

Even if the 6A variation works, the 6C j.C j.C variation does not, which is what he did. You can't make assumptions about a combo that wasn't performed.

The combo he did perform, I recreated tit for tat in CS2, bluebeats and all. It's the CS2 video link in the earlier post.

Anyway, I've never gotten George to activate after the second 236A, so I can't really say much about your 6A combo. It's a 100% viable combo with one 236A, though the 6C j.C j.C variation is also legit with one 236A into 5CC (but you can't really do anything after the 5CC in that combo).

Oh, I believe I only mentioned it because of our conversation earlier where it might still be possible if he did 6A BBL instead. To which I have to say- I have no idea, but if I had to guess... at best it would be a very short ender or not possible.

I have to check out the 6C j.C j.C Iris BBL version in CS2 and see what's up with it.

Though, if I was able to add that much of an ender from 6A BBL, I should at least be able to 3C Iris 3C. It wasn't so much that it blue beated (it was obvious he did the combo wrong) but it was a matter of it looking like after George you couldn't follow up with anything at all in CSX that caught my attention.

[Tari]

I don't know about being able to do an ender off the 6C version.

You've got a lot of additional proration in there. 70% from 6C, 89% two times from j.C, and 86% from sword iris, for a whopping total of 47.68%. This is as opposed to a single 89% from 6A.

Also, that video is incredibly deceptive in appearance. What I've been trying to get across is that everything about that combo came down to failure in execution on the Rachel's part. The Makoto teching so fast was purely because of the way Rachel dropped her combo. Again, I emulated this exactly in CS2. The video doesn't actually give us any information about how techable/untechable the combo is after the fatal j.2C > 5CC.

[Kuuhaku]

You do have a point. Yes, but at the same time I was able to fit in a third 5CC in the 6A version and do stuff after it. Pretty sure this won't be possible with the 6C version, but at least a short one might work. I'll have to get around to it when I'm less lazy.

[Tari]

Changed this line in the first post:

"Reduced combo rate forces us to cut short certain lengthy combos (mostly corner combos)."

to

"Reduced proration of normals forces us to cut short certain lengthy combos (mostly corner combos)."

[gli]

Makes sense. Thanks Tari.

[[SpA]Relentless]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUEV2T922U#t=3m

Rachel does 5B > 5CD > 3C > 236B > 5A > aircombo on Valkenhayn without a short dash before 5A, whereas in CS2 Valkenhayn was a character requiring a dashing 5A. Possible hitbox buff for 5A here? Or Valkenhayns hitbox got bigger? Don't think it connected because of the extra wind.

[Tari]

Relentless;1186913']www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUEV2T922U#t=3m

Rachel does 5B > 5CD > 3C > 236B > 5A > aircombo on Valkenhayn without a short dash before 5A, whereas in CS2 Valkenhayn was a character requiring a dashing 5A. Possible hitbox buff for 5A here? Or Valkenhayns hitbox got bigger? Don't think it connected because of the extra wind.

Shouldn't have been wind-related.

Not sure what the change is, but off the top of my head, these are possible changes that could have been implemented for that to happen:

- Valk hitbox change

- 236B untech increase

- 3C untech increase, 236B startup increase

- 5A startup faster or 5A hitbox buffed

- Change in way characters are floated by 236B or change in way characters are moved by 3C

Whatever the case, it would be interesting to see if they universally made everyone combo-able without the dash, and if so, whether that would have an effect on anything else (ie: 3C > BBL).

Didn't see anything about it on the BBS, but I didn't look too carefully. Moonrunes and whatnot, after all.

[Khaoz77]

Overall, I think Rachel will be interesting to use in terms of originality, can't wait to experiment with this stuff (especially with the changed prorations)

[Tari]

Having tried out CSEX, I fairly sure that I can confirm that 3C236B has not changed. Valk's hitbox got extended slightly.

Also, Rachel's combos don't seem to be notably shorter than before. There isn't a huge difference in how she plays, though cat chair is much less useful (I got counterhit by a lot of moves that the chair beats cleanly in CS2) and lobelia CH is somewhat harder to combo from.

Perhaps what was most interesting to me was the fact that I actually hit 0 damage during a double BBL combo immediately after the second level 3 j.2C. I was rather surprised, to say the least.

[gli]

Awesome. Hmm.

Can Rachel cancel into any special moves after a throw?

How's special cancellable j.2C working out for you?

Haha interesting 0 damage. Maybe you can still use it to stall for time.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Or get meter.

Don't think Rachel can special cancel her throw. She didn't have it in CT and could always combo midscreen with wind (the reason why they gave it back to some chars was that they couldn't combo throw midscreen). No real reason to give it to her now. Also I'm fairly sure we would have seen it at least once in a video now (something like throw > pumpkin > rush down w/ wind).