[CSE] Makoto Nanaya Changes Discussion Thread

[OmniSScythe]

The Ultimate Makoto BBCSEX Change List

Buffs

+5B: Have extended lower hitbox to OTG sliding opponents hitboxes after 5D/j.D?.

+j.D: Increased unteachable time.

+Stargazer: Causes float now.

+Lunatic Upper: Have more unteachable time.

+Shooting Star: Is faster now and have better hitbox.

+Big Bang Smash: Have much better P2 (you can combo after it now)

+Normal Throw: Special cancelable.

+Back Throw/Air Throw: Now deal 1300/2000 Damage (Makoto gained some weight lol)

Nerfs

-Movement: Makoto Initial Dash Speed is decreased.

-5/2A: only gatling for 3 times.

-5C~C: Delay window decreased.

-2C: Have 70% repeat proration penalty.

-6B: Is slower now, From 20F > 22F. Doesn't force crouch anymore. (5CC > 6BC only works on crouching opponents now)

-3[C]: Removed the invincibility near the end.

-Impact: All Makoto drives have repeat proration penalty regardless of level.

-5D: Untechable time decrease.

-2D: Untechable time decrease.

-j.D: Have shorter range (Can't do the switching sides punch in normal condition)

-j.B: Counter hit have less unteachable time? and launches the enemy higher.

-j.2C: Hitbox weakened. Have more landing recovery.

-Comet Cannon: Have more recovery.

-Break Shot: LVL3 doesn't cause a wallbounce anymore, can still wallbound on counter hit.

-Corona Upper: Cannot be followed up on counter hit anymore (In normal conditions), Have less untechable time and follow up window so you can't dive whiff anymore.

-Lightning Arrow: Emergency techable now (doesn't cause a groundbound anymore), can still groundbound only on counter hit.

-Space Parry: Have cooldown. Hits and throws during Space Parry counts as a counter hit now. Space Parry can only cancel to dash now. Have more recovery?

-Space Counter: Weaker proration.

-Mars Chopper: Removed gatlings to 2D and 5D. doesn't force crouch anymore. Can't combo after it even with 662A or 2362366D (More recovery? or less level?)

-Infinite Rush: Have more recovery (so you can't combo after it with 5A in corner now)

-Stargazer: Is slower now?

-Shooting Star: No longer Wallbound in corner on normal hit (none counter)

-Eclipse Turn: Slower now (Have more recovery)

-Big Bang Smash: More Recovery.

-Particle Flare: Have invincibility only for short time (can't be used as an OS to beat bursts or lol MTW etc..) Have weaker proration.

-Back Throw: Have more recovery (So you can't do walk back > 2B 6A 2D)

-Air Throw: Can't Combo after it (Must Rapid Cancel to combo)

-Counter Assault: You can't combo after it anymore. makes you lose a guard primer.

-Hitboxes: Most normals have been given smaller range and/or bigger hurtbox.

Neutral

=Astriod Vision B/C: Have new paths (the new paths are worse imo)

=Astriod Vision 66214B/C: Doesn't work anymore.

=2C: Launch trajectory changed.

=2D: Launch trajectory changed.

Other

= Makoto have a story scenario now.

= Makoto can be used in all game modes.

= All the Unlimited characters are getting revamped, this will include Makoto? (nothing confirmed till now)

= Makoto have a special voice set VS Relius.

= Makoto System Voice Arrangement (Announcer) have been confirmed as a DLC (Release date 22/1)

[Fluck]

Well I'll just give it a shot, an actual translator should correct me :P

- Corner combo starting from 2A and into DD gives 40% back and does about 4400.

- Midscreen combo starting from 2D goes into air combo.

- After midscreen grab, 3C -> rush can be picked up with 2C if at corner, combo hasn't changed.

- Meteor and 2D have same move proration regardless of level. 2C also has same move prorate of 70%. Harsh.

- 6B is not effective on crouch (??!!?)

- j.D has greater untech time, can combo into comet cannon.

- D has longer slide time.

- I am unsure on what he's talking about regarding 2C, but he goes on to say it prevents comet oki!

[OmniSScythe]

Better than what google traslate gave me, also:

Jiyuna on twitter:

"Too many Makoto changes to list. She's a new char. lol at people getting hype over 4k with her"

Hopefully everyone that loved her easy high damage combos can go overboard now.

[HiagoX]

Well I'll just give it a shot, an actual translator should correct me :P

- Corner combo starting from 2A and into DD gives 40% back and does about 4400.

- Midscreen combo starting from 2D goes into air combo.

- After midscreen grab, 3C -> rush can be picked up with 2C if at corner, combo hasn't changed.

- Meteor and 2D have same move proration regardless of level. 2C also has same move prorate of 70%. Harsh.

- 6B is not effective on crouch (??!!?)

- j.D has greater untech time, can combo into comet cannon.

- D has longer slide time.

- I am unsure on what he's talking about regarding 2C, but he goes on to say it prevents comet oki!

Gave it a fast read and there's some things left to point out.

- What he's saying about 2C is that you can still 5D > 2C, but its timing is strict.

- You can't Comet oki anymore.

- Makoto isn't able to carry the opponent from midscreen all the way to corner anymore - after a midscreen 2D, you just end it with aerial.

- Her normal throw is special cancelable.

Me and some players from my country are translating whatever information is coming. Since I'm on a hurry, I'll just paste some combos they've found out:

"{5CC, 5D, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 214A~A, 5CC, 236236D~D~D} - 4.526 Damage"

"{5B, 5CC, 5D, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 236A~D, 5B, aerial}"

"{5B, 5CC, 5D, Lunatic Upper, Stargazer, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 2C, 236A~D, aerial/Particle} ~4k (aerial) ~5k (Particle Flare)"

As a bonus: "Particle Flare's minimal damage decreased to 200/200/840 from 200/200/1.120."

[hakimiru]

Well I'll just give it a shot, an actual translator should correct me :P

- Meteor and 2D have same move proration regardless of level. 2C also has same move prorate of 70%. Harsh.

- 6B is not effective on crouch (??!!?)

You were mostly right~ just a few small corrections.

--流石　is actually "sasuga" so the only move mentioned in that line is 2D, which has the same move proration you mentioned.

--The 6B thing is that it no longer forces crounch on hit.

[milesw]

source?

Is that from a specific BBS?

Gave it a fast read and there's some things left to point out.

- What he's saying about 2C is that you can still 5D > 2C, but its timing is strict.

- You can't Comet oki anymore.

- Makoto isn't able to carry the opponent from midscreen all the way to corner anymore - after a midscreen 2D, you just end it with aerial.

- Her normal throw is special cancelable.

Me and some players from my country are translating whatever information is coming. Since I'm on a hurry, I'll just paste some combos they've found out:

"{5CC, 5D, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 214A~A, 5CC, 236236D~D~D} - 4.526 Damage"

"{5B, 5CC, 5D, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 236A~D, 5B, aerial}"

"{5B, 5CC, 5D, Lunatic Upper, Stargazer, 5B, 6A, 2D, j.D, 2C, 236A~D, aerial/Particle} ~4k (aerial) ~5k (Particle Flare)"

As a bonus: "Particle Flare's minimal damage decreased to 200/200/840 from 200/200/1.120."

EWW

[Nini Heart]

Well, she doesn't sound as bad as in the loketests but still looks like some heavy nerfs.

No more orb oki

No more midscreen pf>2D>lotsa damage

6B no longer forces crouch

How slow is 6B now?

[OmniSScythe]

source?

Is that from a specific BBS?

EWW

I got it from Tsujikawa's twitter.

[Exciel]

A系統：連打は3発まで

B：ch＞微ダ追撃不可能？

6B：発生2F鈍化、強制屈喰らい削除、屈やられのみCCから繋がる

JB：ch時の長い受身不能時間削除？

2C：同技70％？追加

D系統：全Lvで同技補正追加

D：受身不能時間短く、B、6A、2B、直2D、ルナ、ギリギリ2Cが繋がる

2D：受身不能時間短く、JD、ギリギリ2Cなどが繋がる

JD：受身不能時間長く、スライドコメットや2Cで追撃容易

6投げ：Aアステなどでキャンセル可能に、CS化

空中投げ：追撃不能？

CA：ch時追撃不能？

Bアロー：飛距離増加、接地後即受身可能

Cアロー：飛距離低下、同上

コメット：硬直若干増加？

ショット：ch時のみ壁バウンド、端ではBなどで追撃可能

コロナ：ch時A拾い削除？追加のディレイ幅減少

パリング：硬直被ch判定、連続で出せない、ダッシュのみでキャンセル可能

スペカン：補正弱化？

スター：前進距離増加

ルナ：受身不能時間増加？

マーズ：追加D不可能、追撃にはRC必須

ゲイザー：HIT時手前に浮くので2Aなどで追撃可能

ラッシュ：硬直増加で端追撃不可能

ビッグバン：硬直増加、補正強化

パーティカル：無敵削除、補正弱化

I don't completely trust me translating but here's a summary so far.

A series can only gatling up to 3 times

5B - counter hit > ? can't be followed?. Unsure, but I know lower hitbox extended, hits more characters OTG

6B - 2 frames slower, doesn't force crouch, combos from 5CC on crouch

j.B - counter hit less untechable time?

2C - 70%? repeat prorate

All Drives have repeat prorate regardless of levels

5D - untechable time decrease, can link 5B, 6A, 2B, immediate 2D, 214A~C, and fastest possible 2C

2D - untechable time decrease, can link j.D and barely link 2C

j.D - untechable time increase, can link dash 2366A/2C

6B+C - special cancel. A astroid etc.

j.B+C - can't follow up?

CA - can't follow up on counter hit?

214B - jump distance increased, something about teching

214C - jump distance decrease, same as above

236A - recovery increase?

236A~D - wallbounds on counter hit, can follow up with 5B if close

623C - counter hit can't be followed up with 5A? Follow up delay window decrease

Parry - Unsure, something about more recovery and dash cancelling

Space Counter - weaker proration

Shooting Star - Distance increase

214A~C - Untechable time increase

214A~C~A - Can't cancel to drive, need to RC to follow up

214A~C~B - Floats more, can follow up with 2A (I also think the move is slower though)

214A~Cmash - More recovery, can't follow up in corner

Big Bang Smash - More recovery, stronger proration

Partical Flare - No invincibility, weaker proration

I'm assuming 補正 means hitbox.

Edit: woops it means proration

[Fluck]

You were mostly right~ just a few small corrections.

--流石　is actually "sasuga"

I'm assuming 補正 means hitbox.

I think it's proration.

EDIT: actually, it might just mean changed/revised (to be weaker/stronger)

[hakimiru]

It's proration~ I actually sent him/her a message with additions/corrections, but they haven't had a chance to update yet >_<

[milesw]

I got it from Tsujikawa's twitter.

Link?

[Crosell]

Loving the changes! Makoto is going to be so much more fun than her Cs1 iteration!

[MarkusArx]

I'm liking how she looks too. I mean, I'm pretty happy with her being nerfed a bit. Her damage was a little ludicrous in the last version. And her new combo structure looks like it's gonna be pretty fun.

[Exciel]

Gee Makoto players are a happy crew. She looks absolutely terrible to me, she lost everything. Same move prorate on all her moves means there's no room to find alternate corner combos to make up damage like CS2 Bang could. Barrier change makes pressuring harder. The fact that she could combo into an overhead was a huge scare factor and promoted high blocks. Midscreen -> corner ability no longer exists. Orb okizeme no longer exists. No more rewards off things like dp and parry. No reason to do PF combos if proration is worse and Makoto can't corner carry. Damage reduced all around, can't even combo off air throw, probably can't BBS 2 hits -> PF in corner anymore. etc. etc. etc.

Of course this is only day 1 but it's not unlike ASW to do this （╯°□°）╯︵ ɹǝıʇ doʇ

[Kimchi]

she's doing that ragna cs1~cs2 phase where everyone thought ragna was really bad at the beginning of cs2 but ended up rounding off pretty good later on. I'm gonna assume, and hope she will go through the same thing. It is just up to the players to find new ways to do shit, instead of trying to do cs2 in exetent.

[Yoshara]

In terms of damage, it is already known that she can still pull 4.4k off of 2A in the corner with 50 heat, plus she was kinda dumb in CS2 in some places (a corner character with really good midscreen, and some combos that pretty much carried full screen to corner) so I really don't mind the nerfs.

Also she is said to be pretty much a new character by comparison to CS1/2, and as a result sounds more interesting to play, instead of her pretty straightforward and simple playstyle in the previous iterations, so people are happy about that as well.

[Bibiquadium]

Now I can play her without people whining she's broken and top tier, and if I recall, at the beginning she was considered to be a low tier underdog, until people came up with new technology and she became broken top tier afterwards. Reading it as it is may seem like a huge slap on Makoto but it's too early to say anything official as well.

[StarGazer]

Gee Makoto players are a happy crew. She looks absolutely terrible to me, she lost everything. Same move prorate on all her moves means there's no room to find alternate corner combos to make up damage like CS2 Bang could. Barrier change makes pressuring harder. The fact that she could combo into an overhead was a huge scare factor and promoted high blocks. Midscreen -> corner ability no longer exists. Orb okizeme no longer exists. No more rewards off things like dp and parry. No reason to do PF combos if proration is worse and Makoto can't corner carry. Damage reduced all around, can't even combo off air throw, probably can't BBS 2 hits -> PF in corner anymore. etc. etc. etc.

Of course this is only day 1 but it's not unlike ASW to do this （╯°□°）╯︵ ɹǝıʇ doʇ

Pretty much my feelings.

i wont go into details but from reading the changes i hate how there is only small possibilities with her and there all EASY to do and even more straightforward... i guess Makoto design need a remake more than just some values tweaks.

[excelence]

Not sure if she's going to be more interesting to play just by seeing the write up, like my first impression with CS2 patch, it's looks interesting at first but i just can't get the passion to grind her stuff on training mode as much as her 1st iteration and lots off same move proration sounds like Tsubaki

[OmniSScythe]

Link?

http://twitter.com/#!/tujikarori

[milesw]

Thank ya kindly brotha.

Tsuji confirmed he pulled off a carry combo (corner carry?)

[hakimiru]

I don't completely trust me translating but here's a summary so far.

A series can only gatling up to 3 times

5B - counter hit > ? can't be followed?. Unsure, but I know lower hitbox extended, hits more characters OTG

6B - 2 frames slower, doesn't force crouch, combos from 5CC on crouch

j.B - counter hit less untechable time?

2C - 70%? repeat prorate

All Drives have repeat prorate regardless of levels

5D - untechable time decrease, can link 5B, 6A, 2B, immediate 2D, 214A~C, and fastest possible 2C

2D - untechable time decrease, can link j.D and barely link 2C

j.D - untechable time increase, can link dash 2366A/2C

6B+C - special cancel. A astroid etc.

j.B+C - can't follow up?

CA - can't follow up on counter hit?

214B - jump distance increased, something about teching

214C - jump distance decrease, same as above

236A - recovery increase?

236A~D - wallbounds on counter hit, can follow up with 5B if close

623C - counter hit can't be followed up with 5A? Follow up delay window decrease

Parry - Unsure, something about more recovery and dash cancelling

Space Counter - weaker proration

Shooting Star - Distance increase

214A~C - Untechable time increase

214A~C~A - Can't cancel to drive, need to RC to follow up

214A~C~B - Floats more, can follow up with 2A (I also think the move is slower though)

214A~Cmash - More recovery, can't follow up in corner

Big Bang Smash - More recovery, stronger proration

Partical Flare - No invincibility, weaker proration

I'm assuming 補正 means hitbox.

Edit: woops it means proration

My mail got ignored so I guess I'll just post the annotations here to clear up some misconceptions :<

The stuff with "--" are my notes, and the stuff without is the original translation~

5B - counter hit > ? can't be followed?. Unsure, but I know lower hitbox extended, hits more characters OTG

-- 5B: ch>short dash to combo doesn't work

214B - jump distance increased, something about teching

-- distance increase, emergency techable once they hit the ground

236A~D - wallbounds on counter hit, can follow up with 5B if close

-- wallbounds only on counter hit, can follow up with 5B, etc in corner

Parry - Unsure, something about more recovery and dash cancelling

--Counterhit hitbox during recovery, can't be used repeatedly, can only cancel with dash

214A~C~B - Floats more, can follow up with 2A (I also think the move is slower though)

--Floats the opponent directly in front of you, and allows followup with 2A, etc.

[Yoshara]

After watching some footage of CSEX Makoto (the last match in - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwuHP9OL7PY), one of the things that stood out the most to me was how much faster her corner combos are.

Also the combo she did at towards the end of the first round looks to be "5B > 5CC > 5D lvl 3 > 2D lvl 3 > 662C > 236A~D lvl 3 > 66A > JC > j.B > JC > j.D lvl 3 > 6C >623C~D lvl 3". Due to the lower quality of the video, I can't peg the damage exactly, but it looks to be around 3.8k to maybe 4k. Also the 236A~D lvl 3 > 66A looks to have very tight timing/is very spacing dependant, due to how many times it was dropped in the second round.

[Crosell]

i believe its based off of the starter. It looks like 2a adds too much proration and the combo seems to be at about 4k.