[CSE] Jin Changelog

[Jourdal]

Thanks for the first hand info, i was going to ask you about it but you saved me the trouble haha....and that explains why we're seeing less DP loops...and i forgot to mention the 623c primer "nerf"

[Moy_X7]

corner loops are a little different in taht you need to do 66C instead of 6C after a 623C (or else 623C will whiff) and thanks to 214A wallbounce, you can probably get a decent corner combo when you're near hte corner.

I've been doing that since I found out that DP C misses on Makoto if you don't do a dashing 6C which was way back in May. It shouldn't be a problem for me lol. I've got few combos in mind already using 214A whenever the DP loop is not an option.

the annoying part is getting out of hte habit of using 6C midscreen since it launches so far. You should be going to sekkajin > whatever combo instead midscreen from now on. you can 6C > 2D when you do it very close to them, but it's not your go-to combo anymore.

It shouldn't take me more than a few minutes to kill that habit since we're already aware of it.

2C does indeed have head invul through the 1st active frame, but it certainly doens't feel any faster so be careful with it.

also 623C does not break primer haha.

It's good to hear that about 2C, sure it's slow as hell but the I-frames will at least make it more than combo filler now. They need to give 6D its primer breaking properties back, +12 on block is not good enough of a reward for the risk of getting stuffed due to its insanely long start-up.

[ShelledMenace]

They need to give 6D its primer breaking properties back, +12 on block is not good enough of a reward for the risk of getting stuffed due to its insanely long start-up.

Lol I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[kotokot]

changes from jp wiki

buffs:

2D GP, hitbox

2A>BC

2C>6B

2C head attribute invul

throw special cancel

623B faster

6A untech knockdown

214A wallbounce

j.214B/C farther throwback

236236D catch low

632146C 25% min

Sekkajin have more untech on 8th hit

623C less recovery(vs green bursts)

нерфы:

6А more disadvantage, no GP

6C more throwback

2C>5C no gatling

2B no jc

j.C, j.2C less

j.2C hibox

623C no GP

632146D min 600(160＋20×22＋0), more recovery

cs2>csex damage/proration changes

dmg/p1/p2

5A　175/90%/82%>276/80%/82%

5D　710/80%/80%>712/80%/80%

2A　175/80%/82%>276/80%/82%

2B　450/70%/86%>445/84%/86%

2C　720/100%/85%>720/80%/89%

3C　550/100%/84%>650/100%/84%

6A　640/70%/92%>640/80%/92%

JA　175/90%/82%>276/90%/82%

JB　540/90%/89%>540/90%/86%

JC　700/80%/85%>700/70%/89%

J2C　700/90%/85%>700/90%/89%

236A/B/C 500/90%/89%

632146C 800×n/100%/80%>700×n/100%/80%

632146D(2-23)　140/100%>100/100%

6BC(3) 700/100%/55%>1300/100%/55%

4BC　700/90%/55%>1300/90%/55%

[Moy_X7]

6A more disadvantage? WTF!? As if -4 and no longer being able to break primers with it wasn't bad enough. I like how 5D does 2 more points of damage

2B P1 buff is nice though. j.C got nerfed worse than expected with that P1 and hit-stun nerf :/

[shtkn]

i agree 2B proration buff is huge. it means decent damage off lows now! 6A nerf seemed severe, but if it's -5 instead of -4 it still means taht most of the cast can't punish it on normal block. if it's worse then yeah.... don't do it without RC and in the corner i guess?

[Moy_X7]

I hope you're right, 6A doesn't seem punishable atm. 2B starter, 3k combos in the corner, get hype.

[Tong]

Considering that most people get away with blocked Hell's Fang( -4F)...

Though, Ragna's 5A (5F startup) can cleanly punish it now.

[shtkn]

a quick glance at hte frame data showed only Ragna's 5A and Makoto's 5A are 5F startup normals. didn't check specials or supers, but off the top of my head, the only other things taht are 5F or faster are catch moves like yukikaze.

[Moy_X7]

That's assuming that the frame disadvantage is only worse by one point :/

The j.2C hit-box nerf had better not fuck with the instant overhead against Tager cuz I'm gonna be shitty. I'm just now making some use out of that and it could all be gone in a few days.

Edit: disregard that nonsense, it was all but a training mode glitch :/

[TCSyd]

6A Static Difference is the same.

Tested with Noel:

Noel's 5A (5F) cannot punish on normal block.

Noel's 2B (7F) punishes on IB.

Noel's 6C (8F) cannot punish on IB.

[Moy_X7]

Well that's a relief, it would have sucked if 6A had a worse frame disadvantage now that it no longer breaks primers.

[Moy_X7]

Oh and was it ever confirmed if 2D is actually slower? Also, how is j.2C's hit-box worse now?

[Shinsyn]

Oh and was it ever confirmed if 2D is actually slower? Also, how is j.2C's hit-box worse now?

Take it from me, it is worse. I felt the difference playing at Casuals on day one and 3 days ago when I played again. It feels like j.2C's hit-box is shorter than it was in CS2

[Moy_X7]

What about 2D?

[Tonberry]

2d is definitely slower

[Shinsyn]

As Tonberry said, it is slower, but not that slow. it's speed may have been nerfed but it's overall effectiveness as a zoning tool is amazing. It is a fearsome tool to use once you get used to it. It may be slower, but it hits higher and takes a primer away. I've literally used it to set up a block string to break 3 primers off of my opponent:

236D > 2D > 66 > 623A (Leonil shat his pants when I broke his guard with this, LMAO!)

[Moy_X7]

Oh well, we'll just have to work with that. The buffs and the nerf to it make that a pretty balanced move either way.

[cadacus_ater]

changes from jp wiki

buffs:

2D GP, hitbox

2A>BC

2C>6B

2C head attribute invul

throw special cancel

623B faster

6A untech knockdown

214A wallbounce

j.214B/C farther throwback

236236D catch low

632146C 25% min

Sekkajin have more untech on 8th hit

623C less recovery(vs green bursts)

nerfs:

6А more disadvantage, no GP

6C more throwback

2C>5C no gatling

2B no jc

j.C, j.2C less

j.2C hibox

623C no GP

632146D min 600(160＋20×22＋0), more recovery

cs2>csex damage/proration changes

dmg/p1/p2

5A　175/90%/82%>276/80%/82%

5D　710/80%/80%>712/80%/80%

2A　175/80%/82%>276/80%/82%

2B　450/70%/86%>445/84%/86%

2C　720/100%/85%>720/80%/89%

3C　550/100%/84%>650/100%/84%

6A　640/70%/92%>640/80%/92%

JA　175/90%/82%>276/90%/82%

JB　540/90%/89%>540/90%/86%

JC　700/80%/85%>700/70%/89%

J2C　700/90%/85%>700/90%/89%

236A/B/C 500/90%/89%

632146C 800×n/100%/80%>700×n/100%/80%

632146D(2-23)　140/100%>100/100%

6BC(3) 700/100%/55%>1300/100%/55%

4BC　700/90%/55%>1300/90%/55%

***

EDIT v.2 - In Addition, reverse solving for Hiyoku Getsumei's damage and proration is not so easy...

At least I got the damage of arrows 1-23 and the total minimum damage correct

632146D should have P2 of ~71% now (from ~70% in CS2) [ignore this statement].

This does not disagree with the quote above as I thought earlier, since the P2 is only applied after the first arrow.

Re-EDIT: I love it when I make stupid errors... I guess that's what I get for not streamlining my calculator...and wishing Jin's 2C FC combos weren't nerfed so much.

P1 of 2C is 80% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkXh5uXHcs#t=9m12s

***

I agree with everything quoted

Notes:

My understanding of Ice Arrow is that it applies its own proration values to all hits after the first arrow once (that is the resulting proration after using 632146D is applied to all arrows after the first arrow, unlike Ice Wave which applies an added 80% proration after each hit of the wave). It applies min damage whenever the minimum proration is reached. I'm not entirely sure I agree with their explanation of the min damage nerf, but it yields the same result as my estimates (160 + 20*22 + 0 = 600 vs my estimate of 120 + 15*22 + 150 = 600). Their min damage explanation is probably right though based on a couple videos I watched.

[cadacus_ater]

Seeing as pretty much all of Jin's proration and damage changes are accounted for now, if I did organize a new spreadsheet giving Jin's BBCS:EX move data (inputs, damage, p1, p2, heat gain, and perhaps frame data) with a built-in calculator, should I bother uploading it somewhere, and if so, what (free) site would you recommend [or should I send it to a mod]?

The way I'm constructing it, all one would need to do in for most combo calculations is put in standard controller input notations into designated cells (excluding cancels such as intentional whiffs, dashes, jumps, or rapid cancels) and it would spit out prorations, damage values, and perhaps heat gain (though I doubt I'd bother accounting for heat gain reductions). It might have a little error here and there with certain combos and would not tell you explicitly when the combo would whiff, blue beat, or cause the opponent to auto-tech, but it would easily indicate what combo paths allow for optimized damage.

Note: I don't know any changes in Jin's frame data beyond the level reduction of some of his aerials and that Sekkajin's untechable time was buffed by some amount (the exact value of this buff is unknown to me). Until I know that I'm planning on just using CS2 frame data and adding a few notes on where the frame data may have changed.

[Yuushiro]

I made one for BBCS2 using google doc. it was just mostly the new frame data though.

not sure, if you want to include a calculator where would that be though

[cadacus_ater]

The only thing stopping my calculator from being really accurate so far is blasted Hiyoku Getsumei. I can't for the life of me nail down the P1 and actual base damage of it. My guesses so far indicate that the last arrow may have been buffed slightly, but I can't confirm that for certain. It would be awesome if someone could tell me whether:

a) Hiyoku is any different between console and arcade and/or system versions (like between v1.10 and v1.11)

b) Opening Hiyoku does 2357 dmg

[kirk]

The only thing stopping my calculator from being really accurate so far is blasted Hiyoku Getsumei. I can't for the life of me nail down the P1 and actual base damage of it. My guesses so far indicate that the last arrow may have been buffed slightly, but I can't confirm that for certain. It would be awesome if someone could tell me whether:

a) Hiyoku is any different between console and arcade and/or system versions (like between v1.10 and v1.11)

b) Opening Hiyoku does 2357 dmg

2357 (800＋ 100 ×22＋ 1100 ) p1 85% p2 70%(once)

Source:

http://www14.atwiki.jp/jinkisaragi/pages/111.html

[Roldy]

On the topic of 2D, has anyone felt a difference in the frame advantage? I feel like it's not +5 anymore, I couldn't believe how many times I got hit afterwards by mashy players T_T

[Solex]

hm i could go and test it but its much more likely that the opponent just keeps instant blocking it know since they made it slower( 2d is like the easiest move to instant block know) that its getting reduced and you are not compensating for only the plus 2 advantage and using a 10 frame move like 5c when the opponent uses and 7 frame move and since they ib'd it you got hit.

another thing i noticed happening with my 2d pressure was that i would dash up closer to them and i would do it in a speed where it takes up a frame or 2 so the opponent is able to just poke me. what i started doing now is just stand there and frame trapping them by pressing 5a or 5b, 5a if the opposing character has a 5 frame jab and 5b if they have a 6 frame jab. the second they stop mashing out of your 2d you get a free pressure reset

basically the only way my math could work is if 2d was still +5 so im pretty sure it is