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[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

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This is the thread where you can talk about anything pertaining to Tsubaki or Blazblue in general. For off-topic discussion (basically anything else other than Tsubaki/BB) check out this group!

Blazblue: Chrono Phantasma Info

BBCP News and Information

Collapsed: General game system changes:

  • Bursts now regenerate instead of preset number of bursts per match like in Continuum Shift. Using Break Burst completely depletes the OD gauge. Startup is faster.
    • Gold Burst replaced with Overdrive. Overdrive can be used with A+B+C+D when not blocking or taking damage. Temporarily powers up certain abilities. While activated, the timer countdown is stopped, and DDs have altered animations and properties. OD duration is inversely proportional to health, and canceling into OD activation reduces the active duration.

      After use, 3/4 of the OD gauge is depeleted and the OD icon becomes unusable. The OD gauge recovers with time, and OD can again be used once it has fully recovered. The OD icon starts as usable in Round 1, and carries over to successive rounds without recovering. Both players can go into OD at the same time if it is available to them.
      • Combos done while in Overdrive are un-burstable.
        • Guard Primers removed, replaced with Crush Trigger. Press 5A+B to perform an attack that can break your opponent's guard unless they're using Barrier. On Barrier Block, a large portion of the Barrier Gauge is drained, and the attacker can charge the Crush Trigger to drain more of the Barrier Gauge. Amount of barrier gauge depeleted varies between characters. Crush Triggers costs 25% Heat.
          • Air/Ground teching is now done by holding A/B/C input (like P4U) instead of mashing it.
            • Astral Heat (AH) conditions changed. You only need to have your opponent at low health and have 100 heat now. You do not need a burst or OD to use it.
              • Hitstop has been lessened and combos are intended to be shorter/faster.
                • Repeat proration is more severe, and "same attack combo" appears on the screen when repeat proration is applied. Starter affects the amount of time you have to combo with.
                  • When you enter Negative Penalty your barrier gauge will automatically be reduced to zero. It will automatically begin to regenerate like normal when you exit out of negative penalty.

Tsubaki Information

BBCP

[*]Dustloop Wiki Work in progress!

[*]Frame Data

[*]JP BBS

BBCS:EX

[*]Dustloop Wiki

[*]Frame Data

Gameplay Profile

Health: 11,000~

Movement Options: 1 Double Jump/Airdash, Running Dash, Can charge-cancel certain moves

Drive: Install - Pressing 5D, 2D, or j.D will cause her to “charge” her install meter. Holding the button on 5D, 2D, or j.D will cause charging to accelerate at a specific rate. She can only hold a maximum of 5 charges at any time during a round and any left over charges will not be carried to the next round.

Overdrive: Second Install - Automatically recovers charges for as long as OD lasts when activated.

Playstyle: Rush-down, mix-up, being able to manage your resources (especially charges) well. Gaining and using charges effectively is key to being successful with Tsubaki.

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Palettes (1-6): Thanks to Kurushii

DLC palettes (7-16): Thanks to jiyuna and Kurushii

BBCP Tsubaki Changes

Collapsed: Damage and Move Proration:

combo rate 70

5A / 300/100/ 75

5B / 520/100/ 84

5BB/ 400/100/ 80

5C / 640/100/ 89

5CC/ 620/100/ 87

2A / 300/100/ 75

2B / 400/ 90/ 80

2BB/ 480/ 90/ 80

2C / 660/ 90/ 87

2CC/ 680/100/ 87

6A / 620/ 80/ 89

6B / 480/ 90/ 92

6BB/ 560/ 90/ 92

6C /250*6/100/94

6CC/300*3/100/84

3C / 720/ 95/ 94

3CC/ 980/ 95/ 84

JA / 300/ 90/ 77

JB / 420/ 90/ 80

JBB/ 570/ 90/ 84

JC / 530/ 90/ 84

JCC/ 680/ 90/ 87

6 Throw /0,1400/100/60

4 Throw /0,1400/100/60

Air Throw/0,1400/100/60

CT /1000/ 80/100 ※Ignores character combo rate

236A/ 600/ 80/ 67

236B/ 700/ 80/ 72

236C/ 800/ 80/ 82

236D/1100/ 80/ 89

Tackle aura/280*7/ 80/ 99*7

214B/ 750/ 75/ 75

214D/1100/ 75/ 87

22B/ 600/100/ 84

22D/ 900/100/ 87

22B(Charged)/ 900/100/ 87

22D(Charged)/1200/100/ 94

623C/ 800/ 60/ 84

623D/550*3/ 70/ 82

J236A/ 800/100/ 89

A Proj/ 300/ 75/ 90

J236D/ 950/100/ 92

D Proj/ 450/ 75/100

J214A/ 500/ 90/ 67

J214B/ 650/ 90/ 72

J214C/ 800/ 90/ 82

J214D/1000/ 90/ 92

Followup ABC Dive/1000/xxx/ 82

Dive aura /240*9/ 90/ 99*9

46C/ 300/ 75/ 90

46D/ 450/ 75/100

Command throw / 0,0,80*12/ 90/100,80,64,80*11 ※960 guaranteed damage

632146B (Blade super)/8 X 450/60/96 (per hit)

236236C/300,700*3/100/ 92*4 ※Guaranteed 60,140*3

D0-236236D/300,2000/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,600

D1-236236D/300,2250/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,675

D2-236236D/300,2630/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,789

D3-236236D/300,3150/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,945

D4-236236D/300,900*5/100/ 92*6 ※Guaranteed 60,270*5

D5-236236D/300,690*9/100/ 92*10 ※Guaranteed 60,207*9

D0-236236D(OD)/300,620*4/100/ 92*5 ※Guaranteed 60,155*4

D1-236236D(OD)/300,750*4/100/ 92*5 ※Guaranteed 60,187*4

D2-236236D(OD)/300,590*7/100/ 92*8 ※Guaranteed 60,147*7

D3-236236D(OD)/300,720*7/100/ 92*8 ※Guaranteed 60,180*7

D4-236236D(OD)/300,680*10/100/ 92*11 ※Guaranteed 60,170*10

D5-236236D(OD)/300,810*10/100/ 92*11 ※Guaranteed 60,202*10

Also - Mugen provides a 110% proration bonus the first time any D special hits.

Tsubaki Overdrive info

[*]Called Second Install and does automatic charge recovery while it is active.

[*]you can jump cancel cancel with OD. i.e. 5bb>5cc>OD>5bb>5cc works.

[*]6A,6B,6BB,6C,6CC,2C,JCC Can be OD canceled.

[*]If you activate Mugen then OD, Mugen will take priority over OD but OD will make Mugen drain slower.

[*]Activating OD in the beginning of the round gives her about 2 charges.

[*]Charge cancels during OD have faster recovery.

From movelist

BBCP Tsubaki Movelist

Thanks to kidviper for what the highlights mean: Moves in pink are new, moves in blue are revised.

[*]236236D only takes one charge.

[*]The 214x, 22x, 623x, and j.236x series do not have four versions anymore. 236x and j.214x still have four versions however.

[*]214x is now 214B/D

[*]22x is now 22B/D

[*]623x is now 623C/D

[*]j.236x is now j.236A/D (A version also shoots out orb)

[*]New Move: [4]6C/D - Shingi: Yami wo Ugatsu Agari (Level 1 projectile; uses orb that travels straight. C version has slower startup and travels about half screen)

[*]New Move: 63214C - Shinsa: Mu he Izanau Kusari (Command Throw. Gives 2 charges if not RC'd and causes 960 dmg.)

[*]New move: 5A+B - Crush Trigger (uses 25 heat;swings her book over her head. Our new 3CC > RC for more damage.)

[*]New Distortion: 632146B - Shinpatsu: Chi wo Hofuru Yaiba (calls 8 blades which hone in on the opponent one after another.)

Overall Changes

[+]Indicates a buff.

[?]Indicates that we are not sure.

[-]Indicates a nerf.

[+] 6A is a good starter for combos now.

[+] 5BB is a faster/tighter Gatling.

[+] 6BB causes a slide on opponents in the air, that you can followup from.

[+] 6C downs aerial opponents. You can charge in the air while rising, and then connect with j.C afterwards!

[+] 3C© has less recovery, fatals and can be followed up without RC on FC.

[+] Aerial normals, 22B and j.214X can be charge cancelled.

[+] Tsubaki is able to freely charge without being restricted. (From CS1)

[+] 22B CH staggers now instead of causing wall-bounce.

[+] 214X can be followed up on crouchers and launches on grounded opponents again (From CS1).

[+] 22D is safer on block. Fully charged, it is + on block and FCs. Wallbounds on CH & air hit.

[+] 623C is no longer a projectile, has invincibility, and has a lot more active frames. Her main DP but still has a dead-zone.

[+] During Mugen, a fully charged 22D will guard crush.

[+] j.236D > j.214D (aura) hits several times and then launches now, rather than holding in place.

[+] (4)6D > 236D releases a ground aura which hits several times like j.236D > j.214D; causes stagger and it is projectile invincible.

[+] 236X > 214D moves further (practically full screen). Link

[+] The 214x, 22x, 623x, and j.236x series do not have four versions anymore. (Both of us - PK & Keebs, believe this to be a buff)

[?] 6B causes float on CH. 6BB causes a slide on airbourne opponents.

[?] j.D charge rate seems like it is dependent on height? Barely get any charge from a high jump, but from a normal jump, you do.

[?] 5D/2D have the same charge rate.

[-] 2C took a huge nerf in hitstop which makes followup 2CC hitconfirms difficult (even a slight delay will result in 2CC whiff as you can see in videos)

[-] 2C has less head invinciblity.

[-] 2CC floats higher.

[-] 5C no longer jump cancellable on hit.

[-] 2B > 5B Gatling gone.

[-] 3CC bonus proration removed.

[-] 22B doesn't knockdown a standing opponent. Hits them like a 5B. Has more recovery.

[-] Charged 22D is no longer unblockable

[-] 214D lost its invincibility.

[-] j.214X has more recovery.

[-] Charge speed nerfed.

Other

Tsubaki Damage Calculator

This is a damage calculator for Tsubaki from the jbbs forums (Use at your own risk). You can use it to find out Tsubaki's cokmbo damage potential in CP, however, use it at your own risk. Here is the link.

[*]Type 'koromo' into the first box

[*]Click the link below.

[*]Click the download.

Translations:

閃 - 236x

剣 - 214x

槍 - 623x

翼 - j.214x

風 - 22x

光 - j236x

灯 - [4]6x

鎖 - 63214c

球 - Projectile from j.236X

溜 - Charged (e.g. 22x)

特殊翼 - j.236D > j.214D

特殊閃 - [4]6D > 236D

刃 - 632146B

焔 - 236236x

投げ - Throw

衣 - 214214D (koromo)

リセット - Reset

[*]Charge is hard to get. Hard to start without landing a command throw.

[*]Ground Projectile and Air projectile are together limited to 1. If you do an air projectile, you can't do a ground one until it is gone.

[*]Jump loop combo gone.

[*]Her new super (632146B) is fully invulnerable once she is out of her sword summoning pose but not before. It has full invulnerability during the little "backdash" part of her super.||Lows such as Hazama's 632146C will not catch her during this time.

[*]Combos in general are still pretty free form.

[*]If you activate Mugen then OD, Mugen will take priority over OD (so it will drain instead of increase her charge gauge) but OD will drain the gauge at a slower rate.

[*]Relius AH on Tsubaki: http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/b6bo-blazblue/imgs/d/0/d0fed601.jpg

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Charges may be canceled" (UFA)

- "Charge 5D is slower, as expected"

- "After the 623C {,} j.214A whiff, you can not hit a 2C. You can only follow with aerial, but the timing is restricted "

+ "CH 22D causes wall bounce"

+ "3C {CH} 5CC works, goes to IAD combos"

* "{22D, 6C} still combo"

* "{22D, 236D} still works midscreen"

- "Dash feels slower

- "5B is clearly slower

+ "5C is faster"

+ "Cancel Charge has been improved" (huh?)

- "236236C had minimal damage reduced to 650" (was 840)

- "6C FC lost"

- "The 22X has more recovery and worse proration as a starter

-/+? "All the blows with D gained greater prorate(not sure if this means proration is better or worse)"

- "5B hitbox seems better

+ "J.D seems to charge more. 2.8 bars filled from a double jump "

* "Spamming 5D/2D, you need to fill 10 charges for 1 bar"

* "2D charges very slowly until complete 1 bar. From this it is quicker to fill the remaning bars "

+ "{Double jump, j.236D, airdash} seems to work"

+ "5C hitbox is a lot better. You can hit it after a 22C in the corner with no dash "

* "5C seems to put the opponent higher"

Nabbed this from the CSE thread. This alright to discuss right PK?

Erm, it just seems like altogether she has her CS1 stock retrieving methods back and she does less damage overall. I'm intrigued by 3C CH - 5C though. I'd love to know more about her 3C.

She seems easier to use?

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"Charges may be canceled" (UFA)

What the hell do they mean by that? or is that supposed to read "Changes may be cancelled" ?

Not liking the 6C FC loss, though the 3C FC MIGHT make up for it.

minimum damage reduce on 236236C..doesn't matter too much since the only reason you would use this is to land the killing blow anyways.

5B slower? Not liking that while Ragna is still running around with his Jesus kick (and apparently that's completely fine) but the range on 5B got increased? hmm (it's listed as a nerf though, oddly enough)

Charge cancel improved? Hope it's 0 or +1 now instead of -2-ish, would help a lot.

I seriously hope the 5D and 2D change doesn't completely rape her getting charge at neutral, especially coupled with the damage nerfs. I still think it's stupid how a character who doesn't need to charge can get more damage off a random hit than someone who does need to charge can do.

Then again, if 5C is better maybe we'll hit more with it, and if they didn't fuck up the proration then it's still decent damage off of that I guess.

In any case, I hope someone discovers some new stuff we can use to combo with soon, it feels like her combo game is really freaking boring again, almost like CS1 boring ;/

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Well, I bet charging is still faster than CS1; But lets be honest, the ridiculous button tapping of 5D for charge was, er, ridiculous, and I'm not surprised it was changed.

Nerf to 5B makes me very, very sad. =/

And uh, Daed, I think charge cancel is already 0 and not negative - at least off of 5C and 5CC. Of course, it's negative if they IB.

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Not liking the 6C FC loss, though the 3C FC MIGHT make up for it.

3C fatal will never make up for it unless it special cancellable or jump cancellable. In the event that it isn't, you wouldn't be using the move at all, so giving it FC properties doesn't matter. Also it was listed as 3C (CH) which means it's not a fatal.

5B slower? Not liking that while Ragna is still running around with his Jesus kick (and apparently that's completely fine) but the range on 5B got increased? hmm (it's listed as a nerf though, oddly enough)

Which makes this particular matchup even more of a nuisence.

In any case, I hope someone discovers some new stuff we can use to combo with soon, it feels like her combo game is really freaking boring again, almost like CS1 boring ;/

I figure it'll be something near to it, but not completely since she can still do DP - whiff - J.C (not one of my fav though)

Well, I bet charging is still faster than CS1; But lets be honest, the ridiculous button tapping of 5D for charge was, er, ridiculous, and I'm not surprised it was changed.

Agreed, and like I stated before I would've preferred it if it were exactly like CS1.

Nerf to 5B makes me very, very sad. =/

I saw something like this coming...it's not surprising to me at least. We'll have to see how much slower it is then. If it's really slow it means we can barely do anything in really close range and will have to rely on midscreen stuff like getting in with 236C or using 214D.

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Well, 3C CH might still mean FC...Okay I don't know really, to be honest.

If 3C doesn't FC and 6C doesn't either then that leaves us with 6A?

Really? 6A? a badly prorated move already which means that you can't do shit with it anyways? Sometimes I really question what the hell ASW is doing.

And yeah, 623C - j.214A(whiff) -j.C still works, but I dunno if they mentioned if you can then do j.236D - j.214A(whiff) - 6C - etc...if you can't do that then I really see almost no point in doing that cause you'll be stuck in the air.

j.D's charge rate seems to be decent though, so who knows if it's viable...maybe they even removed j.D's landing recovery.

And while tapping 5D was kind of ridiculous, she should still have ways to get charge at neutral and if it's CS1 charge speed (speaking overall) then it's just not viable to do so and having to wait until you get a knockdown just so you can charge safely is stupid as well 90% of the cast doesn't have to sit back and charge or anything to actually be able to do their big damage combos.

All goes back to "A character who needs to charge should do more damage off of a random hit with those charges than someone who doesn't need to charge at all", Jin's 25% heat moves and Hakumen's Magatamas fall under the "charge" category as well.

Then again, if you can get charges too easily then that would be kind of OP, but still...meh, on the fence about this.

I'll just wait and see. I thought CS2 Tsubaki would be just as useless as well like CS1 Tsubaki but in the end that obviously wasn't the case. I'll just wait for match videos to pop up, some of those google translate translations might be wrong anyways (the changes Kiba listed were taken from a polish site using google translate to translate it into English)

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The prospect of 623B j.214A(w) 5C combos has me intrigued but otherwise I'm feeling kind of meh about this right now =/

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Nabbed this from the CSE thread. This alright to discuss right PK?

Late but of course it's ok to discuss. That's what this thread is for. :)

I'll add them to the first post when I get home from class since I'm using my phone to make this post atm.

I skimmed through the changes and it's really obvious to say this but it looks as though we have to re-learn her somewhat.

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Late but of course it's ok to discuss. That's what this thread is for. :)

It just made me quite conscious as Daedron pointed out they're may not be entirely accurate.

I'm hoping players like Ten can return....

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They should have just left her combos alone and changed little things about her. And while action charge would be nice, it would be too situational in a lot of cases because of the recovery on it and rapids probably wouldn't work on it ;/

Also, if 623B whiff combos are the new thing I wonder how viable they actually are, considering 623B has a P2 of 74 and from what I tested in CS2 it only leads to about 3K-ish with 2 charges and that's about the highest you can get out of it too...so uh yeah >.>

I liked doing my corner combos, now we have to use boring easy ones = no satisfaction for landing any ;/

Unless someone finds something new, DP whiff wasn't found like 3-4 months into CS2's life either were they?

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I think 623c whiff was found right away?

remains to be seen if you have to do 'easy' corner combos. the change to using 623b whiff is something different but kinda what I want. diff combos, but still difficult and interesting

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[Tsubaki]

"Charges can be cancelled" (phew...)

"5D Charge is slower, as expected"

"Afters {623C, j.214A whiff}, 2C wont connect, its only follow-able to an aerial, but the timing is restrict"

"{214D, 2CC, IAD j.CC, 5B, 2CC, 3 hits} harder to do"

"The 214D combo above did 2.852dmg"

"Didnt notice any difference in j.236D, anyone noticed?"

"{5BB, 5CC, 3 hits (B)} works"

"{Throw, 236C, 214D, 2CC} - blue beat in the second C"

"{5BB, 5CC, 623C, j.236D, j.214C whiff, 2B, 2CC, 3 hits (B)} - 2.686 Damage"

"22D CH wall bounces"

"{3C CH, 5CC} works, follow-able to IAD combos"

"j.C's untechable time lasts longer, but 2C has worse SMP"

"With a 22D starter near the corner, following to and IAD combo, she couldn't even reach 4k" (depending on how much install it was able to reach 5k in CS2)

"{22D, 6C} still works"

"{22D, 236D} still works midscreen"

"Dash become slower?"

"{2A, 2A, 5BB, 2BB, 5CC, 22C, 6C} works"

"{5BB, 5CC, 22C, 6CC} works"

"{5BB, 2C, 214D, 2CC, IAD j.CC, 5B, 2CC} works"

"{5BB, 5CC, 623C, j.236D, j.214C whiff, 6C} works"

"{5BB, 5CC, 236D, 5BB, 2BB, 5CC, 22C} works"

"5BB is -> CLEARLY <- slower"

"5C is faster"

"Charge Cancel was buffed" (huh?)

"236236C had its minimun damage decreased to 650" (used to be 840)

"6C lost its FC properties"

"Her 22X have more recovery and higher initial prorate"

"All her D moves got bigger prorate"

note: by bigger, i think he means worse

"3C FC combos meterlessly"

"{623C, j.214A whiff, dash 623C, j.236A whiff, j.214D} works"

"{623B, j.214A whiff, 5C} works"

"5B's hitbox seems bigger/better"

"j.D filling more gauge? Filled 2.8 from a double jump"

"Spamming 5D/2D, it's necessary 10 charges to fill 1.0 Install"

"2D fills very slowly until it reaches 1.1 Install. Then, if gets faster until reaching 3"

"Corner, {623C, j.214A whiff, 623C, j.236A whiff, j.214D} didn't work"

"{double jump, j.236D, airdash} looks like it works"

"As 5C got faster, it's more worthy using it than 5B after IAD j.C~C"

"5C hitbox got bigger. One can land it after a 22C in the corner, without dashing"

"{22C, 6C} does not work anymore"

"6C, feels like it has slower start-up"

"{Throw, 236D} a dash is necessary, so 236D connects better"

" 5C Raises the opponent more"

"236D feels like it has a smaller hitbox in the lower part"

"{236D, 214D, 2CC, IAD j.CC, 5C, 2CC, 3 hits} - 2.885 damage"

"{5BB, 5CC, 623C, j.214A whiff, hj.C, j.214D, 236D, 5C, 2CC, 3 hits" 3.103 Damage"

"{22D, 5D, 6CC, 623C, j.236A whiff, j.214D, 5C, 2C, 214D, 5C, 2CC, 3 hits ©} 4k damage"

"6CC raises less the opponent"

"{22D, 5D, 6CC, 214D, 5C~whiff~C, 623C, j.236A whiff, j.214D, 5C, 2CC, 3 hits ©} works"

I figured 5C would be more viable for IAD stuff now, and in addition to this we can see that Tsubaki has received a damage nerf, and various proration nerfs.

Then again I doubt anyone would do Throw - 236C - 214D - 2CC. We're better off going into the normal combo that we're all aware of.

She's getting bodied, and this should've happened to Noel.

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Interested to know the applications of her new Mugen.

I always thought IAD combo looked really cool :\

Also looks like we're gonna be hurting for charge, and they want to make a clear difference in ending in aerial combo and j.D than ending in ground knockdown and 5D.

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I figured 5C would be more viable for IAD stuff now, and in addition to this we can see that Tsubaki has received a damage nerf, and various proration nerfs.

Then again I doubt anyone would do Throw - 236C - 214D - 2CC. We're better off going into the normal combo that we're all aware of.

She's getting bodied, and this should've happened to Noel.

Be nice to the Noels they're already hurting.

The damage nerf was pretty much universal to all characters iirc. I want to have actual video footage of her right now though because even though it sounds bad on paper she may still have something that may be found by the time they start recording. I'll update the first post with everything so far.

EDIT: First post updated. If I'm incorrect about one of the changes as to whether it's a buff/nerf/neutral please feel free to correct me.

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Well, 3C CH might still mean FC...Okay I don't know really, to be honest.

I've never understood the need to specifically label fatal counters. I mean, if a move is a fatal counter move, then CHs with it are ALWAYS Fatal counters. It's not like it's some weird property where the Fatal only happens some of the time. 6C CH is Fatal. Period. There's no need to write anything special to denote it.

And while tapping 5D was kind of ridiculous, she should still have ways to get charge at neutral and if it's CS1 charge speed (speaking overall) then it's just not viable to do so and having to wait until you get a knockdown just so you can charge safely is stupid as well 90% of the cast doesn't have to sit back and charge or anything to actually be able to do their big damage combos.

All goes back to "A character who needs to charge should do more damage off of a random hit with those charges than someone who doesn't need to charge at all", Jin's 25% heat moves and Hakumen's Magatamas fall under the "charge" category as well.

Then again, if you can get charges too easily then that would be kind of OP, but still...meh, on the fence about this.

Sadly, I'm right there with you. Honestly, I -still- think that Tsubaki should've done MORE damage in CS2; When other characters can get 4-5k in the corner meterless, and we need charge to do that, there's something wrong. That said, without any footage showing us how fast or slow charging is now, it's hard to judge how much this hurts.

Edit: Okay, reading the changelists people are posting right now, I have concluded that:

A) ASW is being really stupid with Tsubaki. -_-

B) The people recording the changes can't even make up their own minds about what works and doesn't, since in the same freakin' changes post, we have "{2A, 2A, 5BB, 2BB, 5CC, 22C, 6C} works" and "{22C, 6C} does not work anymore" which is clearly selfcontradictory.

I am going to ignore this crap for at least a week. It's only going to depress me otherwise.

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I've never understood the need to specifically label fatal counters. I mean, if a move is a fatal counter move, then CHs with it are ALWAYS Fatal counters. It's not like it's some weird property where the Fatal only happens some of the time. 6C CH is Fatal. Period. There's no need to write anything special to denote it.

The reason it's labeled as a FC instead of just leaving it as a CH is because there are different properties to them. What happens in a FC is different from if it were just a regular CH so it's important to mention that it's fatal. Not everyone knows that a move's CH is fatal as well so it's easier in the long run to just label it as such.

B) The people recording the changes can't even make up their own minds about what works and doesn't, since in the same freakin' changes post, we have "{2A, 2A, 5BB, 2BB, 5CC, 22C, 6C} works" and "{22C, 6C} does not work anymore" which is clearly selfcontradictory.

It probably means that if you do 22C > 6C in a combo it will work but if you just try to do the 22C > 6C by itself it won't work.

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Don't worry too much, it's way too early and most of what gets found out first is "what no longer works" instead of "something new that works".

Overall though, it seems rather clear that she's been nerfed all things considered. It doesn't really make sense that she did with her place in the tier list and all but that's arcsys for ya.

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She did win SBO hah.

But yea, I'd wait a bit for more information since they're clearly still experimenting and trying to find changes.

EDIT: This doesn't mean we can't discuss what has been found though. Feel free to talk~

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Well, I will agree it's much too early for everyone to go into panic mode and wimper about the nerfs and such. We still need more time to see what's what for Tsubaki (mainly some video footage). But my biggest gripe with her changes though is our 5B becoming slower. Practically our best poking tool becomes abit less viable (in speed) for on-approach and keeping our opponents out is quite bad..

@Airk: IMHO right now, we're quite capable of getting "good" damage with no install. Our corner combos can do about 3k+ with no install and our midscreen combos can do a fair amount as well (2.7K from DP whiff combos). With install charge we can dish out either abit more or alot more depending on how much install we have and what we decide to do with it.

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She did win SBO hah.

A fighting game developer should never take that into account. That's like saying Hakumen should be nerfed cause he won EVO2011, even though Hakumen is almost shit tier. And what if a Tager won SBO? would he need to be nerfed?

Tsubaki was solid mid, there was no reason to change her except maybe to keep up with the rest of these changes. But they went a little bit too far.

Anyways, her CS2 damage is more than fine, especially considering the fact that you can get charges pretty easily.

The problem is that in CSE, we get charges slower AND we get a damage nerf. To be honest, these were the options ASW should have taken:

1.Make charging even faster and nerf her average and maximum damage (though to be honest, her max damage is already really low)

2.Make charging slower (CS1 slow or about there) and increase her damage with those charges, I'm talking about 8K+ corner combos with 5 charges here, at the very least (not off of a 5B obviously, but off of a 22D for sure)

I don't really know what I would have preferred honestly. I do think there's something wrong with the charge to damage ratio, considering I can get 5.5K with only 1 charge (no mugen) but the max I can get with 5 charges (no mugen) is like 6.5K...how in the hell does that make any sense? Her average damage is pretty high but her maximum damage is really really low.

Right now, there really isn't much difference betwen a Tsubaki that has 3 charges and one that has 5, if they land a hit, they'll only do a 2-3 charge combo anyways cause using all 5 charges in a combo is USELESS, that seriously needs to be changed.

So if they made charging slower and increased her damage exponentially per charge a Tsubaki with 5 charges would be really really deadly. Almost like a Hakumen with full magatamas who can do a 10K mugen combo if they hit you (and apparently, that IS FINE).

Right now though, it seems we have the complete opposite, D moves proration has been nerfed so using a lot of D moves in your combo is just asking for shitty damage, why don't D moves have a bonus proration or something? and make her normals P2 value slightly lower, so if you use a lot of D moves in a combo you'll deal more damage overall and it would also make Mugen slightly more useful in some cases cause you could fit in more D moves (except 5 charge mugen, that would still be useless thanks to repeat proration)

But yeah, we need some match videos soon to see her in action, though I'm not holding my breath at all.

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I was just joking lol. SBO was about two weeks before EX came out so I highly doubt they based her changes on that if anyone took me seriously. There are nerfs across the board for most of the characters so it's not like Tsubaki is the only one who's changing.

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