[CSE] Jin Gameplay Discussion

[Skeith91]

D DP frame trap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1FQswYptkM&t=3m23s

lol

[xlolxlolx]

thats not a frame trap....

[Skeith91]

I know, but I don't know what is the term used to describe "whiffing something on purpose to make your opponent press buttons"

even though I don't think he whiffed 6A on purpose, but I think it can be used the same way as ragna's 2C whiff

[C0R]

In that situation the Jin player made a huge mistake by not accounting for barrier push, and opened himself up to a punish from Litchi by continuing into the 6a chain. At the fault of the Litchi player for not recognizing that and blowing him up for it soon enough, he was able to pick up the fumble by uppercutting. It's still a really bad situation to put yourself in and I would never recommend whiffing anything other than 2a/5a at that range.

[xlolxlolx]

^this and whiffing anything but 5a and 2a gets you blown the fuck up as jin

ragnas 2c reach is actually pretty deceptive and recovers somewhat fast, whiffing move on purpose usually only works with rushdown chars since you usually dont want to be pressing buttons when theyre pressuring you, cept whiff 5a throw is almost universal

[Jyosua]

Not really, that Litchi just wasn't fast enough to punish.

Edit: derp, I didn't refresh the page before replying, lmao.

[shtkn]

so i think i just found out an awesome new corner mixup off 3C > 214A, but it requires that they neutral tech:

3C > 214A > run under (you're in the corner) > they neutral tech > run under 2A (you're out of hte corner) > iad j.2C

depending on how long you wait before you 2A, you will crossup when you j.2C or you will stay on the same side. to get it to crossup, you need to push them out of hte corner more before you cross under, to get hte fake crossup, you run into them less.

please try it out and let me know if it works for you guys. i only discovered this last night in training mode and didn't get to try it out on any real ppl

[Jyosua]

so it's essentially a triple or double crossover?

[shtkn]

haha, yep. though the first crossover is obviously a bad place to stop since you're cornering yourself for free.

you could also IAD j.236D for a fake third crossup

i'm really excited to try this stuff out, but we'll see if i can get the execution for it down. i had some problems in training mode getting the IAD 100% of the time, so i need to grind it out i guess

[Moy_X7]

Triple cross-up

1. You dash under them after the 214A

2. You squeeze under them with 2A after they neutral tech.

3. You do an IAD j.2C after they get crossed-up by the 2A.

I would really only attempt this if my opponent has the reactions to block the 2A cross-under but this is a good alternative to the 5B vacuum > IAD j.2C cross-up. I'll try it out on netplay and see how it fares.

[DJ_Blactricity]

Will this beat reversals that won't hit directly above them like litchi's dp or hazama's jayoku?

[Jyosua]

I think, but I may be wrong, that Hazama can OS his Jayoku Houtenjin to hit you with SOMETHING regardless of if you crossover.

[DJ_Blactricity]

He can option select it with barrier by doing 214214AB. Which will cause jayoku to come out if you crossup, and barrier if you don't. I was aware of that when I asked because if he option selects the crossup before IAD jayoku will come out.

[Jyosua]

Ah, I see. If you IAD j.2C, I believe Hazama's Jayoku will hit you. But if you IAD j.236D, I think you should win.

[-Kid]

The 3rd cross up will most likely lose to Jin's D and C DP, since both hit above and a bit behind him. I'd suggest only doing it against Jin if you've conditioned your opponent to block on their wake up.

[Moy_X7]

Posting the "list of shit that beats 6A on hit" here before I forget lol

Ragna

5A - 5F, trades with 5A but loses to 2A

2A - 7F, win

Advantageous, 2A will beat his 2A and low profile under his 5A.

Jin:

5A - 6F, trades with 5A but loses to 2A

2A - 7F, win

Advantageous, same as Ragna.

Rachel:

5A - 6F, hits crouching so it will trade with 2A but lose to 5A.

2A - 7F, loses to 2A but wins against 5A

Disadvantageous, guess right on her 5A with 5A and you win. Guess wrong on her 2A with 5A, you whiff and lose. Trade her 5A with your 2A and you're back to neutral (not good for Jin as you just gave up the momentum in this little game of rock-paper-scissors).

Carl:

5A - 6F, loses to 5A and trades with 2A

2A - 6F, trades with 2A and beats 5A

You're fucked, his 2A trades with your 2A and beats 5A. There's no reason for him to use 5A in this scenario when 2A puts him back in neutral at worst.

Arakune:

5A - 6F

2A - 10F

Disadvantageous, same as Rachel.

Bang:

5A - 6F

2A - 8F

Disadvantageous, same as Rachel and Arakune.

Hakumen:

5A - 5F, trades with 5A but loses to 2A

2A - 7F, loses to both 5A and 2A

50/50, guess right and you'll beat his 2A with both 5A and 2A. Guess wrong and you'll trade with 5A, putting you back in neutral.

Tsubaki:

5A - 6F

2A - 7F

Disadvantageous, same as Rachel, Arakune, and Bang.

Hazama:

5A - 5F

2A - 6F

You're fucked, same as Carl.

Lambda:

5A - 6F

2A - 8F

Advantageous, same as Ragna and Jin.

Tager:

5A - 7F, loses to 5A

2A - 8F, loses to 5A

I'd say advantageous but that pitiful amount of frame disadvantage doesn't mean shit to him. In fact, he wants you there so that he can employ his own guessing game of A Buster, AC, and backdash/DP punishes.

Litchi

5A - 6F

2A - 7F

Advantageous, same as Ragna, Jin, and Lambda.

Taokaka:

Her 2A low profiles under all of your ground normals, beats 2B and recovers on time to dodge or block 6B. Nuff' said. (You're fucked, same as Carl and Hazama).

Noel:

5A - 5F, hits crouchers.

You're fucked, same as Carl, Hazama, and Tao.

Mu:

5A - 6F

2A - 7F

Advantageous, same as Ragna, Jin, Lambda, and Litchi.

Makoto:

5A - 5F

2A - 6F

You're fucked, same as Carl, Hazama, Tao, and Noel.

Plat:

5A - 6F

2A - 8F

Disadvantageous, same as Rachel, Arakune, Bang, and Tsubaki.

Valk:

5A - 6F

2A - 7F

Advantageous, same as Ragna, Jin, Lambda, Litchi and Mu.

Relius:

5A - 6F

2A - 7F

Advantageous, same as Ragna, Jin, Lambda, Litchi, Mu, and Valk.

So we have 7 advantageous situations, 5 disadvantageous situations, 5 situations where we're completely fucked, one 50-50, and one where it's not worth being in that position. I don't know about you but this is some bullshit right here.

So the verdict says to push buttons against Relius, Ragna, Jin, Lambda, Litchi, Mu, and Valk. Don't push buttons against Makoto, Carl, Hazama, Tao, and Noel. Push buttons at your own shitty risk against Plat, Rachel, Arakune, Bang, and Tsubaki. Push buttons for a 50-50 with Hakumen. I'd say don't risk it against Tager because of a guessing game of his own.

Well that or TRM them if they're in range for it lol.

[Jyosua]

A note about Rachel: If you go for the TRM Purple-grab to avoid the 5A/2A guessing game and it doesn't work and she techs, either jump or don't press buttons. Her 6B is just at the right distance to beat your 5C and will shit on you with a counterhit.

[Moy_X7]

You could always do 66 5B(1), 66 2A or j.X to avoid it. There are a lot of characters who can beat Jin at that distance, you just have to know their options and your counters to those options.

[Jyosua]

Aside from j.X (which is what I use and does work), I sincerely doubt those would work... have you tested them? When she techs the throw, she gets to move first. Between that and the time it would take you to do the microdash (and the range) I can't help but think those would be asking for a counterhit.

[Moy_X7]

When she techs the throw, she gets to move first.

Really? I didn't know that, I thought that when a throw is teched you both go back to neutral. I use 66 5B(1) universally but I'll give it a test and see it if works.

Edit: Nope, not enough range for either 66 5B or 66 2A and her hurt-box doesn't expand enough for a trade. Gonna mess around some more with this using other characters.

[Jyosua]

Yeah, defender always wins the frame advantage. But for some characters it doesn't matter due to the ranges of their normals. For instance when Hakumen purple airgrabs Tager in the corner, he's fucked and has to eat the throw or essentially get reset.

[Moy_X7]

Yeah, defender always wins the frame advantage.

You got any proof? Like the exact amount of frame advantage? Sorry for my skepticism and I don't know how to test frame advantage/disadvantage lol.

[Jyosua]

I'm actually looking this up right now, because I seem to remember hearing this from Xiei's beginner mode, but I'm not 100% sure. I know it was somewhere on these forums I heard this from. I'm really hoping whoever said it wasn't full of shit though, but from my experience it seems to have held true.

I'm having a hard time finding where I read or saw this, so I may need to measure it myself. That'll be a pain, but now I have to know for science.

[C0R]

All throw breaks will always leave both players at neutral every time.

[Kurushii]

All throw breaks will always leave both players at neutral every time.