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ehuangsan

My Ky Trade Secrets thread

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Ky v. May

At one point this was my most common matchup and I must have played it hundreds of times already. This is where I disagree with the rest of the forum which thinks it's 6-4+ in Ky's favor. I think it's either even or 5.5-4.5 in favor of May, simply because May's life lead does not really matter and Ky is compelled to play a very active game throughout the entire round. Ky will hit out May a lot from the ground and refute maybe 60-70% of May's attempts, but May can also initiate an offense from pretty much anything and guessing wrong once leads to damage or even instant loss. And per my rule of Ky matchups, if Ky is compelled to do things in a match and cannot just simply sit back and choose to do nothing then Ky is at a disadvantage, though I can believe that the matchup is actually even.

Strategy-wise, it's a pretty typical Ky matchup in that Ky is trying to hold back the tide versus the tide breaking through. This matchup also requires a lot of theoretical knowledge on Ky's part to memorize what pokes to use against what and when, kinda like learning Dhalsim in alpha 3 to correctly anti-air and play against every other character.

Neutral

This is probably the hardest part of the matchup. Luckily Ky has the advantage on the ground with 5S, 2S -> 5HS, 6P and ground SE. Ky is looking to deny May from initiating any offense by staying on the ground and using his superior pokes to keep May honest. Jump backward kicks keep May from airdashing in.

May will be looking for an opening to either 6P, dolphin, FB dolphin, 3K or IAD S, HS. The IAD S -> HS is very dangerous especially if you use the ground SE a little too much, since you will pretty much lose 40% life from the ensuing combo. FB dolphin also allows May a way in on block and it is more or less impossible to stop, so you have to keep an eye as to when she can do it and avoid blocking the FB dolphin.

Ky can seal out all of May's air attempts if he can react to them, but it is very specific as to when you need to 6P versus VT versus jump backward k/s, or block or other anti-air. This requires a lot of practice, and sometimes you will do it wrong and get counterhit into the air for 60% life. That being said, for this matchup if you are not sure what is going on then default to block because getting hit is just so bad against May.

Also keep a mental tally as to how many counterhits you have taken in the match. If you take more than one counter hit whale/jump 2HS, or one counter hit 6P then you may get dizzy on the next counterhit or even overhead kiss so you have to concentrate on running away and avoid getting hit for several game seconds to reset the stun counter.

Offense

May doesn't really have good defensive tools so Ky can put May into standard Ky katame. However, some special care needs to be given to the zero frame whale if May is in the corner, because you can die from it from full life if it counterhits and May has tension left over. It's better to let her go and play the neutral than risk getting hit by something stupid. There's also a lot of May specific combos that one should learn as May is very floaty.

Defense

Once May has an in, she is trying to find a way to send you into the air or go for a 6P/overhead kiss mixup. The problem is that you will have to keep defense rather honest and look for a safe way out. However, there are some hard refutations that should be memorized:

  • Strings into 5D are not legitimate and you should practice punishing them on reaction with a run/walk up 6P or 2D into combo.
  • Any non-FRCed blocked dolphin is punishable by 2D into HS SE or sacred edge, depending on the distance.
  • Air dolphin can be refuted by SVT, and can be used as a hard call out against a whiff air dolphin -> overhead kiss attempt.
  • Strings into charge 6P can be refuted by stutter step HS VT, 6P or RT if you are sharp enough to react to it, otherwise just block.
  • Jump knees can also be refuted by SVT, which can counterhit into an air combo.

This match at 10:10 gives a very good idea of how Ky needs to stay perpetually active to win. Basically this matchup requires lots and lots of practice and memorization, which is why this match video looks so strange as if both sides are doing very random call outs.

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Not a whole lot for me to say here, but I'd just like to thank you for all the work you've done with this topic. Thanks to it, I was finally able to decide on a main for GG, as well as learn some nifty tricks. Keep up the awesome work, Eh. x3

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Not a whole lot for me to say here, but I'd just like to thank you for all the work you've done with this topic. Thanks to it, I was finally able to decide on a main for GG, as well as learn some nifty tricks. Keep up the awesome work, Eh. x3

Thanks.

Ky v. Jam

6-4 in Jam's favor. Somewhat odd because Ky actually has an advantage everywhere except for damage, but that is enough for Jam to kill Ky from any situation at any given time.

It's an exaggerated version of the typical Ky matchup of holding back the tide versus the tide breaking through in that once Jam hits you with something heavy the round essentially ends and she wins. But you can make it very hard for her to land that magical hit.

Neutral

The general idea is to stay on the ground maybe 80% of the match and build the so-called "Machabo wall". The Machabo wall involves staying lockstep with Jam just outside of Ky's 2S range. There is a vid out there on niconico douga which I cannot find now which has amazing subtitles in Japanese of how Machabo answers everything Jam does against the 2S wall.

Basically there are two points to the Machabo wall. The first point is that you create the wall with intermittent 2Ses and Jam will try to come up with answers to 2S. The second point is to frustrate Jam enough to attack you from the air while you are on the ground, which is the absolute worst situation for Jam to be in. ALWAYS try to piss Jam off enough to approach you from the air while you are grounded so that you can kill her. Every Jam player will eventually try this no matter how patient they are, and you need to inflict as much pain as possible when this situation arises. When you frustrate Jam enough to come at you from the air while you are on the ground, you can slaughter her with 6P, 2HS, 5HS (!) or SVT counterhit attempt into damage. Only resort to magic airthrow when that is the correct and only refutation when you have ground against air.

If you do the 2S wall right, you can refute everything Jam does basically on reaction. 2S ducks under flying kick, will counterhit normall puffball, will recover in time to allow you to block FB puffball and airthrow her out of IADs for flying hopkicks, or sometimes even 5HS counterhits for IADs. It's pretty remarkable how effective the wall can be.

Jam will pretty much try everything she can to hit you with something heavy, such as 2D, 2HS counterhit into FB puffball or FB puffball outright. More patient Jams will try to earn a 2D knockdown to start offense and will be willing to trade life away to get it. However, if you can consistently time and space yourself correctly with 2S, then this will not happen very often.

BUT....at the correct spacing, you can't combo off the 2s except for maybe stun dipper off counterhit. So you are pretty much trying to kill her by hitting her to death one 2s at a time, while one mistake causes you to lose 80%+ of your life, which is why Jam is still favored in this matchup.

Essentially you do not need anything else; there is no need to do something risky by doing stun dippers or stun edges outside of very intermittent situations to keep it less predicatble. It's also not wise to be in the air too often, as Jam can hurt you with 6P, FB puffball or sometimes 2HS.

Defense

Strangely, Ky actually defends rather well against Jam. Outside of dust and instant overhead, Jam isn't really all that dangerous and you can basically block and watch for an opportunity to push her out or DAA her out. There isn't any real need to even VT out or go for Ino gambits too often, though if you are sharp, you can go for counterhit SVT against Jam if she gets too predictable.

If you want to be more aggressive, you can look for an opportunity to 2S or option select throw out on wakeup. Jam does not take damage well against Ky, so throw FRC combos actually hurt. Even if Jam tags you with a low hit when you try to option select throw on wakeup, the resulting damage is not bad as she will normally tag you with a weak low hitting poke instead of something round ending like FB puffball. So it can sometimes be good to patiently watch Jam and if she knocks you down, just go for the option select throw. This also applies to normal throws too during her offense, but not as often as the option select throw.

There isn't that much you can do about the instant overheads, but Jam does not really do too much damage off of them so if they hit, then oh well. You can try to call them out with 2Ps which will counterhit Jam into the air and allow you to do a VT loop, but that should be done sparingly due to the risk from eating a FB puffball.

Jam should not approach you from the air outside of same jumps and oki, and if she does, you should punish her for it. Ground to Air, Ky pretty much eats everything that Jam has if he responds correctly. Jam may try to do shenanigans like flame kick, jump kick, flying kick or what not, but each can be refuted hard on reaction. Good Jam players will not approach Ky too often from the air while Ky is grounded.

Offense

Jam can cause some problems with her parry, FB puffball and her DP. One of the most common refutations to Ky katame is to parry CSE and then 6P into massive damage combo when Ky is not expecting it, or go into parry/goldburst option select. So when you launch a CSE, you have to be careful as to how you approach Jam. Sometimes, you should just immediately stun dipper after the CSE to convince Jam not to go for that too often and then RC into combo if it tags her.

Another point to keep in mind is that you should reduce her chances of tagging you with something heavy by not using 6HS or 5D too often. Sharp Jams will immediately react with FB puffball or flying kick, and that will cause a near instantaneous loss. Rather, 5K should be used more often even though the damage followups are not very good. 5K hits low and breaks Jam's parrys, and can also recover in time to block the FB puffball. If you can perfect the sliding 5K (which I will explain sometime in the future), that is especially effective against Jam.

So the tenor of all Ky/Jam matchups is pretty much Ky is winning until he suddenly loses off of one hit. Ky has to play a near perfect game, but since you have an advantage in neutral, offense and even defense, and especially ground versus air, it is more managable than it looks.

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Eh-sama while it's a great post I just want to list something you didn't mention at all and that's respect Jam coming in over the air if she's IADing and has a charged DP ready. It's 3F startup and 1-17F invul even when done in the air, and when done off of an IAD Jam falls straight down. This will clash and beat if not straight up destroy Ky doing any AAs. Fortunately IBing will give Ky enough frame advantage to punish or at least force Jam into blocking. FDing multiple hits of it will basically make it safe though.

Oh, and Ky's french-ass hitbox makes 6HH 236D and 2D 236D whiff so be happy for that lol

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Eh-sama while it's a great post I just want to list something you didn't mention at all and that's respect Jam coming in over the air if she's IADing and has a charged DP ready. It's 3F startup and 1-17F invul even when done in the air, and when done off of an IAD Jam falls straight down. This will clash and beat if not straight up destroy Ky doing any AAs. Fortunately IBing will give Ky enough frame advantage to punish or at least force Jam into blocking. FDing multiple hits of it will basically make it safe though.

Oh, and Ky's french-ass hitbox makes 6HH 236D and 2D 236D whiff so be happy for that lol

Although this is true and Jam also has other CH tries in the air against a grounded Ky, the risk/reward is just not there for Jam IMO, to the point where even if Ky eats the DP and loses the round off of it he should just shrug it off. The huge problem is the possibility of eating a CH 5HS out of the air, which is an absolute dream situation for Ky because it leads to abnormal damage Ky combos and possibly even stun if Ky has full tension or half tension with a prior CH 6P. It's a rather rare situation, but Jam is one of the few characters where Ky can legitimately go for that, especially off of a Jam IAD.

Basically in that situation where Jam may try for the IAD DP, Jam is offering Ky a 6-4 coin flip in Ky's favor when the matchup is supposed to be 6-4 in Jam's favor. Unless Ky has better than a 6-4 life lead, Ky should gleefully take that every time.

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Could we get a write up on the Dizzy matchup, Eddie matchup, Millia Rage matchup, and the Chipp matchup eh-sama?

Btw what are your thoughts on Xrd, where they're taking Ky from what you've seen with regards to his Grinders to enhance his projectiles, will you be playing/buying the game?

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Could we get a write up on the Dizzy matchup, Eddie matchup, Millia Rage matchup, and the Chipp matchup eh-sama?

Btw what are your thoughts on Xrd, where they're taking Ky from what you've seen with regards to his Grinders to enhance his projectiles, will you be playing/buying the game?

I dunno; I think the matchups have changed rather drastically in +R so I don't really have that much info on them, and the changes seem to be mostly for the worse. I'm not sure if it's because I simply suck at games and don't understand whats going on or if Ky is really as bottom tier as I think he is now.

I haven't been really paying attention to Xrd, but if and when I get to try it I may want to give Bedman a go instead.

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I dunno; I think the matchups have changed rather drastically in +R so I don't really have that much info on them, and the changes seem to be mostly for the worse. I'm not sure if it's because I simply suck at games and don't understand whats going on or if Ky is really as bottom tier as I think he is now.

I find your AC write ups are good enough to provide a foundational template for how matches should be played regardless of the GG iteration you're playing.

You feel Ky is a terrible character right now? Care to share why?

I haven't been really paying attention to Xrd, but if and when I get to try it I may want to give Bedman a go instead.

Well you've single handedly broken my heart with that statement D:

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Could we get a write up on the Dizzy matchup, Eddie matchup, Millia Rage matchup, and the Chipp matchup eh-sama?

Btw what are your thoughts on Xrd, where they're taking Ky from what you've seen with regards to his Grinders to enhance his projectiles, will you be playing/buying the game?

Bumping this thread, hoping to hear from you from you soon with regards to these matchups, eh-sama :)

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Does anyone have an optimal 3hs combos? Been experimenting but I've been curious on how to maximize since comboing from 3hs is a bit tricky due to it not being dash cancelable and comboing off of it depends on the range that it landed.

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I normally use 3HS, dash up 5S->6K XX FB Orb, 5K->5HS XX stun dipper.

It may not be optimal, but it is pretty easy to do and does quite a bit of damage.

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Thanks, never thought of 6k>FB Orb or 5k>5hs, I usually do 3hs>5hs>stun dipper or 3hs>stun dipper, depending on the range.

Any chance of you giving any of the remaining matchups a write up eh-sama?

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You don't have to necessarily have to do ACR, the reason I've been asking for your write ups is because they're going to be incremental when Xrd comes to the Western world and when more characters become playable. Your writeups really look at the basics of the matchups, and I doubt they'll change that much in Xrd.

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The Eddie matchup would be extremely helpful for me.

That character is my worst goddamn enemy. Even one of our new players who's playing him is giving me problems because I have no idea how to deal with some of his shit even though it seems pretty obvious that there's gotta be a solution for it.

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I don't know if you've gotten to the Ky v A.B.A. matchup yet but Shinobi said to post this here

 

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I'm really curious how the Order Sol matchup differs from the Sol matchup in eh-sama's perspective. Whether it is AC or ACR.

 

They are very different. Order Sol is slightly ahead in the matchup (maybe 5.5-4.5) but it's pretty fun for Ky since almost everything can lead into a chain into stun dipper so you can do a lot of interesting things.

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Ky vs. Eddie

 

6-4 in favor of Eddie. If Ky gets caught, Ky loses. If Ky can avoid getting caught while attacking, Ky wins. For those people who play third strike, the matchup is like Dudley or Ken vs. Yun. The little Eddie is basically equivalent to Genei Jin.

 

Neutral

 

Ky must attack, either directly or indirectly. If he doesn't, then Eddie can start his very dangerous offense off the little Eddie so this must not be allowed. However, what makes this so difficult is that Ky must attack while avoiding the knockdown. If he gets knocked down, then Eddie can possibly end the round right there.

 

So Ky has to attack in a rather oblique manner to reduce the risk of knockdown, and constantly harass Eddie. He can do this by staying in lock step with Eddie at about 5S range and attacking with 2S, 5S, j.k, j. HS and TK SE. Basically you use these pokes to approach Eddie and dance around the 2S range. If he jumps, you can counter with 2HS, j. k or 2HS. If he steps within range of the 5S, the 5S, 2S chain is very helpful.  TK SE FRC is a good way to seize initiative from Eddie, as it is rather difficult for him to counter that. Staggered strings into stun dipper/SE also work as Eddie might look for the SE to try to IAD. If he does, the stun dipper will catch him.

 

Eddie will try to knock you down with drills and try to create space for himself to launch little Eddie. Once the little Eddie is out, Ky has to basically stay far back and try to kill the little Eddie with air SE or 2S, or trying to make Eddie block something with TK HSE.

 

Avoid getting knocked down as much as possible. Even eating a Noboru combo that permits an air tech is sometimes preferrable to getting knocked down. Yes, it is that bad.

 

Defense

 

If you are here, you have screwed up somewhere. If Eddie tries to go for high/low/command throw mixups, the best you can do is either DAA, burst or try to one frame jump out. However, if he goes for the unblockable projectile/drill setup, there isn't much you can really do about that and he will basically take most of your life away from that setup alone.

 

Some Eddie strings into little eddie are illegitimate.  For example, his 5S into summon loses instantly to 5K, however, clever Eddie players may try to go for the drill instead.

 

If you manage to escape and the little Eddie is out, then you have to try to kill it with 2S or jump back air SE.

 

If you get knocked down and sent into the puddle for the unblockable setup, you can actually reversal SVT out automatically. Even if Eddie does a safe jump, blocking the SVT will cause Ky to get sucked into the puddle, whereupon the game confuses itself by registering the block animation on Eddie which makes the puddle vanish, handing Ky the imitative.

 

Offense

 

Because getting knockdown is so bad, Ky must be aggressive but not overly aggressive. Best is to stay just inside 5HS range and go for katame patterns. Eddie's defense is not very good, so going for throw/counterhit setups are very good. 2S/5H stagger patterns are especially good IMO.

 

The analysis on the Faith matchup video in this thread should give you a good idea of what both sides are doing in the matchup. This matchup hasn't really changed, even since the XX days. Another good video to watch is the Machabo-Ogawa SBO finals from a few years back. Machabo has the right idea, but....Ogawa is frighteningly good. Someday I will do an analysis on that match vid.

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Thanks eh-sama for the write up.

 

I guess we could also watch machabo's sets with Ogawa in Xrd as well. Though Ogawa's spacing is superb and probably better than machabo's, I noticed in their last match as he kept Ogawa under the range for 5s, it really limited his options and it allowed him to perfect Ogawa.

 

 

I also noticed that machabo keeps his bursts for unblockable and/or highly damaging setups rather than use it under katame pressure like most players do. Would you advise the same thign for other Ky players to save their bursts like that?

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I also noticed that machabo keeps his bursts for unblockable and/or highly damaging setups rather than use it under katame pressure like most players do. Would you advise the same thign for other Ky players to save their bursts like that?

 

That is more player style dependent. Some players will burst very early at the first possible burst point, OTG or katame situation on the belief that they can fence through the rest of the round without it and also play well enough to have the off chance of getting the burst back during the round at around the 40 sec mark or so. Others specifically reserve it for the high damage situations if they still have chances to win the round, or even only for the game losing round.

 

I think either saving or burning it early is okay, so long as you have a gameplan behind doing so.

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So, after playing over a hundred games against good justice players, I'm firmly convinced that the Ky-Justice matchup is 3-7. Unless someone has some tech out there that I do not know of?

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