[CSE] Tsubaki vs Hazama

[pktazn]

Discuss the match-up here.

[TheGreatReptar]

Just something I found effective a little while ago. If Hazama is being predictable with his chains, you can j.236C over them and possibly CH him.

[Omegashrimp]

Just something I found effective a little while ago. If Hazama is being predictable with his chains, you can j.236C over them and possibly CH him.

While that works, I think most Hazamas are going to throw an AA chain as soon as you jump.

I usually decide to forgo charge in this match and chase after a 22x. Is that the way to go?

I also try to condition Hazamas with 6A and 6B just to get them to throw out a jayako when they have enough heat and think I'm dropping my blockstring to do another mixup. But I guess not every Hazama throws em out.

[Errol]

While that works, I think most Hazamas are going to throw an AA chain as soon as you jump.

This isn't really true. If hazama throws an aa chain as soon as you jump, and he chains you on the ground if you don't jump - how do you get in? You don't (but no one plays this well).

Basically the same as with Lambda. You get in by going high when he decided to go low, or vice versa. Possibly by reacting to something they do...

[Airk]

This isn't really true. If hazama throws an aa chain as soon as you jump, and he chains you on the ground if you don't jump - how do you get in? You don't (but no one plays this well).

Basically the same as with Lambda. You get in by going high when he decided to go low, or vice versa. Possibly by reacting to something they do...

And by the same token, if they're always hitting you, it's probably because of something you're doing, like always trying to jump in after blocking one ground chain, or something like that.

[EXonestar]

¬_¬..... *found out 214D doesn't go thru his "projectile" snakes* ..... The Hard Way....

[Airk]

Yes it does. You are timing it wrong.

Also, 214D has no properties that specifically relate to projectiles. It goes through moves that don't have the 'foot' property, which none of Hazama's chains do. However, there are 10 frames of 'startup' on the move before the invulnerability kicks in, which is kindof a lot when you're trying to react to something like a chain. It's honestly not likely to be a good way to close ground on Hazama, since even if you -do- go through the chain, you won't HIT him unless he's REALLY on autopilot, so he'll just attack you during your recovery. 214D is a good move, but it's really only useful when it's going to make contact with your opponent. It's not really a valid way to just 'dodge' projectiles at full screen.

[Vosetri]

I doubt I'll get an answer, but what would be the best way to get out of pressure against Hazama. They just keep going in doing whatever they want.

[Airk]

Well, you're going to need to describe the pressure a bit more.

Is he just doing jab -> 5b -> stance ->overhead ->repeat? you can DP him (or even just jab him) out of the overhead - actually, DP beats both overhead and low from stance, but loses to doing nothing, depending on spacing, so it's important to do it a couple of times so he knows he can't just do stance crap for free, but don't do it EVERY time or he'll just start stance cancelling and kill you.

If he's doing jump cancel crossup stuff, you can dash out - it doesn't even really matter if you get a forward or backward dash, I don't think. Theoretically you could DP him out of this, but crossups make it tricky. I think you can also airthrow him out of it if you can read when he's going to do it.

Hazama also has super terrible range on most of his normals (almost Tsubaki level of short :P) so barrier guard to push him out can force him to either disengage via Jabaki (yeah, it's +1 on block, but you'll be so far away that that's irrelevant.) or try to close distance with either a dash (which you can generally beat by just sticking out a 5A) or stance overhead - which as established, can be DP'd, even on reaction if you practice. (It's a super easy one to practice too, since you can just record Hazama going into stance and then doing cancel/high/low/Gashoukyaku and set playback to random.)

If he's doing something else, well, you'll have to tell us. Specific questions are easier than general ones.

[Vosetri]

Ok thanks, whenever I tried to DP out of Falling Fang it trades. I didn't know I could jab out though. I guess it's mostly that my reaction time is bad. Do you know if 5C works on Falling Fang?

Edit: Just checked and 5C counters Devouring Fang early and Falling Fang with a good amount of time and a free IAD combo.

[ninetysixgoals]

I really hate this matchup. He can control every part of the screen with his chains so I can't get any charges without knocking him down first. But because of his range he can pretty much dictate where and when the fighting will begin, and I have no real answer to his chain followup. I've tried DPing after blocking the chain but it always seems to get countered.

What should I be doing in this matchup? Should I try to block and counter his chain attacks, or should I just try to be super aggressive and not even bother with charging? Something tells me I have to do the latter, because I don't think Tsubaki has anything that can deter Hazama from throwing the chain out all the time...

[Zeromus_X]

Try to stay mobile and not let them bully you with chains. I think that's the most important part. Try to stay out of chain range by retreating to fullscreen or running underneath them if they try to come in from above. Don't forget Tsubaki's mobility options like jD > airdash and dives to retreat and get some charge at neutral. If they just herpaderp into your face, use 2C and 214D more liberally. If they're actually smart about it, IB the chain and smart mash or DP, but make sure to interact with them and not just try to punish them every time so you don't get baited.

Once you can get 1-2 charges and actually get in his face, the matchup becomes a lot easier, just make sure you have a way to punish rolling because most Hazama players will disrespect you.

[Airk]

Hazama doesn't really own this match - but there are some things you don't want to have happen. You DON'T really want to block his chains, because it's really hard to react to/beat the various different options he has. You can force them to do really early aerials off of a D followup by using 2C when they chain in but that just makes them start doing the C followup where they crossup, or hitting j.B really early so they hit you at max range and you can't really react. However, I think you can backdash those options.

Backdash is actually pretty strong against Hazama and gets you out of a lot of his crap.

He can't harass you with chains at fullscreen without walking forward first, so you can charge there, but mostly, you want to get in there and take the initiative. Unless the Hazama player is super good at reacting to stuff, he's probably throwing out chains and hoping to hit or cancel them, and this just makes things into a 50/50 for both of you. You can 236C/D right up into him if he tries to throw out a 6D or 4D trying to predict you jumping, and if he throws out a 5D you can IAD over it, and both of those are better for you than you getting hit by his chain is good for him unless he catches you at full extension - even a CH chain at short range basically gets him crap.

So yeah, the #1 thing you don't want to have happen is to block a chain on the ground at full extension and then have to put up with his mixup afterwards. Stay in the air enough that he wants to do 6D to get you out of it, and then take advantage of that to get in on the ground.

[Daedron]

Is there any way to punish his DP on block? the low recovery...actually, the knockback on that thing makes it so extremely safe it's not even funny.

I guess if I block it while in the air I can't do anything at all even on IB? (stupid, by the way)

God, I hate this character. so obnoxious in neutral but even more obnoxious with his combos, shit lasts longer than Litchi's combo's ;/

[Airk]

Is there any way to punish his DP on block? the low recovery...actually, the knockback on that thing makes it so extremely safe it's not even funny.

I guess if I block it while in the air I can't do anything at all even on IB? (stupid, by the way)

God, I hate this character. so obnoxious in neutral but even more obnoxious with his combos, shit lasts longer than Litchi's combo's ;/

You're completely screwed if you block it in the air - there's no way you can land and punish in time, though it MIGHT be possible to j.214C it or something. I'll have to try that in training mode.

On the ground, you should in theory have enough time to dash up 5B or something if you have the timing right - it's -20, so it really should be possible.... though I've never been able to do it, I uh, also don't successfully block it very often. -_-

If you're on the ground and see this move coming, it might be possible to try to beat it out with 214D.

But yeah, I hate that move. It's stupid. Like pretty much everything about Hazama, really. Not looking forward to this match in CP either, when he gets even more stupid. -_-

[Kiba]

If you block this move in the air, you cannot punish it. j.214X won't work he'll block it in time and then punish you.

If you block it on the ground, you can dash 5C/5B CH > 6C him. You can even CH 22D him if you're not too far. If you're right in his face when you block it, you have the option to use FC 3C too.

[Daedron]

Well, I'm mostly in the air when I get hit by it or block it...

And yup, CP. the game of j.CCCCC , you thought it was stupid in CS1?! WELL DO WE HAVE AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR YOU HE CAN NOW DO IT 5-6 TIMES...OH MAH GOSH.

But meh, I haven't really looked up CP vids too much but I so hope D projectile goes through his chains...and C projectile cancels them out at least...please arc sys? ;_;

EDIT: Guess I'm missing the timing for a punish on the ground then. I swear I can never hit him wiith 5B and even if I do it's never a counterhit ;_;

[bakahyl]

But meh, I haven't really looked up CP vids too much but I so hope D projectile goes through his chains...and C projectile cancels them out at least...please arc sys? ;_;

Both his chains and tsubaki's projectiles are level 1, so they do cancel eachother out although i am not sure if it's worth using 1 stock.

Also doesn't tsubaki's shield charge move gain projectile invincibility if she charges in one of her projectiles in CP (and even looking safe on block)? Looks pretty usefull against hazama or any zoners IMO

[Daedron]

Yeah, it should have...I also saw a raw 236D go through Tao's bowling ball at one point, though we never figured out HOW because no one that plays Tsubaki in JPN has reported it having any kind of projectile invis or other properties, well. Here's hoping it does have something going for it.

And well, doesn't the charge cost 2 stock total? Or can you do it with C projectile too? Don't even know if that was ever actually mentioned anywhere or not and everyone that does the charge always seems to use D projectile.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Coming from the Hazama side of this matchup, I see a lot of Tsubakis failing to realize that I can quick wake-up > 66.5D after you send me flying away. They tend to hold D and wait for a neutral tech before they stop charging. Don't do this, you leave yourself open to quick wake-up chains. Try to use your D charge the same way you'd use VTC on Tager; short bursts only. Every time I see Tsubaki charging D I immediately want to start chain spamming. You can factor this into your Yomi.

Tsubaki's 2C is a big deterrent for charging in with my drive. So I'm unlikely to actually charge in unless I get a confirm.

IAD works great against Hazama's 5D, while running forward/236x works great against his 6D, it's a constant mix-up battle. So D charge > predict a chain > react. This happens to me a lot when I fight Tsubaki. I don't think I'm punishable if I react quickly enough with a A cancel, but I'm certainly not in a good position.

Example:

First mix-up > Tsubaki charges > Hazama 5Ds > Tsubaki IADs over it

Next mix-up > Tsubaki charges > Hazama 6Ds > Tsubaki 236Xs

As for Gashou

...

don't get hit by it

[Daedron]

Maybe I just need to fight more Hazama's. though the only one that was actually good (that I know of) doesn't play this game anymore. And the other one I tend to fight has a 1 bar with me so reacting becomes a lot harder.

Leading into me shedding my salty Tsubaki tears for you all. Oh well :V

[hipikachu]

Same here, but for Tsubakis on Vita. Not that there are any. I don't really have more than a handful of good/active Hazama players online, but when I do fight Haz with Tsu, I like to treat it a bit like the Lambda matchup. Stay mobile, make him whiff shit, and use what little recovery he has on his moves to charge tap.

Be the biggest bitch to catch in the game, and don't jump in like an idiot. Hopping over chains can slowly give you the match pace you deserately need. If you even look like you're about to air dash, scrubby Hazamas will go into 214D early to gain access to gay "one-press DP action" reactionary anti-airs. Use some kind of air move to w\quickly kill your momentum and land short, making him whiff the move for a free 34 frames of doing whatever the hell you want. It's not something to rely on, but a stroke of luck is still stroke of luck, you can't get greedy with that. You don't even want to make any kind of contact with any of his moves, resetting pressure for him is way too easy.

Avoid using any 214x moves at all at neutral unless you actually see the chain go beyond the point of no return, or else you're making CH 3C is way too easy for him to get in this matchup.

Tsubakis that sjc>dj>j.D>j.214D to avoid chains make me cry everytime I see them, almost as much as 2Ax3>5B>5C>3C>Hotenjin.

[Airk]

Coming from the Hazama side of this matchup, I see a lot of Tsubakis failing to realize that I can quick wake-up > 66.5D after you send me flying away. They tend to hold D and wait for a neutral tech before they stop charging. Don't do this, you leave yourself open to quick wake-up chains. Try to use your D charge the same way you'd use VTC on Tager; short bursts only. Every time I see Tsubaki charging D I immediately want to start chain spamming. You can factor this into your Yomi.

Eh. Quick tech 66 5D shouldn't be a big deal because you should just be able to let go and block; Pluswise, it's usually preferable to pressure Hazama on his wakeup rather than charging, I think. What always slays ME is quick wakeup at CLOSE range. x.x

Tsubaki's 2C is a big deterrent for charging in with my drive. So I'm unlikely to actually charge in unless I get a confirm.

Unfortunately for us, there are lots of ways for Hazama to beat 2C. Early j.B is VERY hard to 2C, and C chain followup is also very hard to 2C due to the crossup.

IAD works great against Hazama's 5D, while running forward/236x works great against his 6D, it's a constant mix-up battle. So D charge > predict a chain > react. This happens to me a lot when I fight Tsubaki. I don't think I'm punishable if I react quickly enough with a A cancel, but I'm certainly not in a good position.

Example:

First mix-up > Tsubaki charges > Hazama 5Ds > Tsubaki IADs over it

Next mix-up > Tsubaki charges > Hazama 6Ds > Tsubaki 236Xs

I'm not convinced this is the way Hazama should be playing against Tsubaki. Or rather, this is the way I see less good Hazama players approaching the matchup. He should be flying around the screen and using j.6D to stuff pretty much ALL approaches. Tsubaki is bad at air to air, and she really doesn't have an answer for a Hazama player that spends all his time in the air. It's lame, but it's WAY safer for him to play like this than to get into a guessing game like you describe.

[hipikachu]

I'm not convinced this is the way Hazama should be playing against Tsubaki. Or rather, this is the way I see less good Hazama players approaching the matchup. He should be flying around the screen and using j.6D to stuff pretty much ALL approaches. Tsubaki is bad at air to air, and she really doesn't have an answer for a Hazama player that spends all his time in the air. It's lame, but it's WAY safer for him to play like this than to get into a guessing game like you describe.

TBH, not all Hazamas are turtley cowards, some actually like to chain in without the scrub confirm. Besides, unless any of you DL Tsubakis hits Vita, I don't think I'll ever see a Tsubaki I would have a genuinely hard time with. She's just too easy to diss and disrespect if you know the character well. I mourn each and every Tsubaki I ever grabbed out of an A DP.

[Airk]

TBH, not all Hazamas are turtley cowards, some actually like to chain in without the scrub confirm.

No, it just happens to be the smart way to play the matchup; Why guess when you can just play it safe?