[CSE] Tsubaki vs Tager

[pktazn]

Discuss the match-up here.

Far more dangerous in Extend.

[Kiba]

Exactly my thoughts.

5B is slower, so our poke game has been demolished a little. The 236X series are even more unsafe on block and now he has an easier time retaliating with 360/720.

214D has become far too dangerous to use on block now.

On the plus side, if he uses 6A in an attempt to catch us while we're magged, we have 3C FC now....

[Surf]

ugh hated this matchup in Cs2 and it only gets worse. 22C/D seemed to keep them at bay for me in that iteration. Not sure about Tagers new changes and if he'll be able to do something about those attacks this time around

[Daedron]

^

He won't be able to at max range.

From the few matches I've had against Tager so far, it seems to have shifted slightly in his favour. but the way the battle is played out seems to be relatively the same. it's just that Tager has a bit more tools at his disposal and any random hit can be extremely bad news since 1. more damage and 2. TONS of meter, allowing him to do more crazy shenangians whenever he wants to.

Of course, this is still the easiest matchup to get charges in, since 214D and 236D are really risky now when blocked, I would suggest only using those in combos or rapid them if they get blocked. 22D unblockables are our friend as always, make sure to space them well so you don't get hit by a 360/720 , any other move he does to try and beat it you should be able to beat by releasing your 22D on reaction, which is really good thanks to the counterhit wallbounce.

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option, even more so now that approaching him is harder thanks to nerfed 5B, 236C and D moves.

If you need charges: 2D at a safe distance so long as he does not have a sparkbolt, if he does, make sure to release 2D on time and if you're feeling REALLY gutsy 214D it on reaction to avoid being magnetised or just super jump while blocking (less risk, no charge needed ;p) If you want charges badly and he super jumps in on you, stop charging and run under him to the other side of the screen and start charging again. Tager players LOVE it when you do that.

Beat his jump ins with 2C, but keep an eye out for j.2C since it will mess up your timing and on counterhit will lead into at least 3K damage (4K+ if you're already magnetised, 4.5K-6K if he decides to use some heat).

If the tager blocks, you have a few options. You can stay on the ground and pelt him with some ground based attacks to force him to barrier block it all, if he doesn't you can hitconfirm into a full corner carry combo. If he does block and he has heat, you should be careful cause the moment he lands he has some options in the form of 720 which he could have been buffering right before he landed or Magna Tech Wheel, in both cases you can jump up as a precaution, use your barrier and see what he does, if he 720's you'll evade it and can j.C for free, if he magna tech wheels you can block it, land and get a 5C counterhit...if he decides to use Atomic Collider you get hit...which isn't as bad as getting hit by a 720 at least.

You can set up unblockables against Tager as well if he decides to jump in, if he high jumps towards you and you're spaced in such a way that Tager can in no way hit you with anything on his way down, you can start charging your 22D right as he reaches the top of his jump and it will hit him right before he lands, this is important cause if he has the chance to land he can just backdash it. j.2C can be used by him as well, if you see him using this immediately release your 22D (which will probably whiff) and go fetch yourself a counterhit if you think you'll make it to him on time (using 236D or just 5B or 22D...well go wild really.).

22x while all minus on block now can still be used to keep Tager honest, if the Tager decides to use 22D to throw you off guard, you get a free counterhit if you can react on time. If you do not react on time you can expect a trade which is NOT in your favour, he can tech before you and thanks to the wallbounce properties of 22x, he will land pretty close to you with you being magnetised.

While I don't expect any decent Tager to do this much, if at all, Sledge can be handled the same way. Though in Extend he can charge up his B sledge to extend the range, just know that even at full charge, it only goes 3/4 of the screen and places him in a spot where you can hit with the tip of your 22x.

If you can consistently counterhit him out of any ground based approaches, the air is his only way to approach and if the Tager knows this, you're that better off.

Oh yeah, since you get charges easily you might want to use 623D if you have 3 charges to spend, it will evade anything Tager can do to you on wakeup. It doesn't matter if he blocks or not, auto pilot straight into j.236D - j.214D to make it completely safe. you can pressure him a bit if you want to but keep your blockstrings short and if you spot him IB'ing any of them while he has hit, try to get out of there as soon as possible cause he might try to use a 720.

5B - 5C - 2C - jump cancel seems to work, you can backdash for safety or continue pressure with j.C, just make sure to use a deep j.C since otherwise he can just 360/720 you the moment you land and try to do anything else except jump away again.

There's probably more I can add but I probably want to play more matches first.

Long story short, the matchup has stayed relatively the same as CS2, he just has a few more tools and higher damage while Tsubaki has less tools and less damage (in the majority of the cases), making this officially an even more boring matchup than in CS2 if you decide to play it "the right way"...then again I don't think any character vs Tager is all that exciting, and I sure as hell don't always play this "the right way".

[Kiba]

Oh yeah, since you get charges easily you might want to use 623D if you have 3 charges to spend, it will evade anything Tager can do to you on wakeup.

MTW can beat any of our DPs, and he could even charge to guardpoint it. With that said...

It doesn't matter if he blocks or not, auto pilot straight into j.236D - j.214D to make it completely safe.

Unfortunately it does matter because if he blocks it, he can use AC, or even better, he can 2C Tsubaki out of the J.214D. I don't think alot of people realise that this isn't safe to do against Tager at all, but hey, if it works for you...

[Daedron]

Is that so? Guess I'll have to test that out in training. I've never seen a Tager hit me with 2C after, guess this has more to do with them not knowing

And yup, forgot about dat MTW, well then, yay for bad news!

[Kiba]

Testing for confirmation would be cool. We'll be able to see if anything regarding that changed.

Again only thing you need in this matchup is 5B and unblockable. If you use 236X, you deserve to be to 360'd/720'd.

[Daedron]

Just tested hit, he can hit you with a 2C trade when you do j.236D - j.214D, just as you come down. If he's mashing on it like crazy after the 623D it will whiff though so he has to time it. It's certainly not a favourable trade at all, obviously.

Might have to see if just using j.236D will work, I bet it evades the 2C but I have my doubts about it being good for us if he uses AC or just sledges through it on reaction, no clue if we can block the sledge and no clue if he will be able to get us with AC. I just joined a lobby so I will test that some more later.

[Kiba]

Thanks D.

Just using J.236D will evade AC, but it leaves you vulnerable until you get to the ground, so he will/should be able to sledge us afterwards.

[Daedron]

Alright, then I'm just going to leave this piece of advise here:

Don't get hit and you'll be fine

[Dusk Thanatos]

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option

Letting him come to you seems to still be the best option

No offense

But do you even understand how the fuck a grappler matchup works

[Michi]

Uh, not sure if my opinion really counts but might as well.

Tagers won't usually pull out a MTW with only 50 heat and if ever I get caught in MTW because I did a DP, then I'd rapid. I don't usually do DP when I don't have enough heat for rapid. As for gadget finger, it's the only move that I'm really irked by. Since Tager is a slow character in general, it's pretty easy to see his blockstrings and they have this awkward pause when they're going for a tick throw. Go for DP if that's the case since they might do a tick or an AC.

Since 236x are now unsafe on block, I usually go for 236A/B then cancel it to 22D for spacing. When a Tager sees a 236D, they would usually react with a 360/720. And due to the move's limited range you can start off a 22D CH midscreen. Idk but sparkbolt is quite easy to react to since 214B/D would usually do the trick.

As for Tager's 2D new pull, it was pretty hard to adjust at first and if you try to 214D it, the pull is too strong if you start it at the same time as Tager's 2D. What I do here is a j.C since the pull will just lead you to Tager and since the hitbox points low and in front of you, it doesn't trade at all.

For MTW, I just 214D through it. :v Although in my experience, Tagers don't do MTW midscreen by random (or they might just rely on the pull but they don't really). Aaand if ever I get cornered, best thing to do is jump + barrier, really. And be sure that during neutral game while you're being magnetized, don't hold barrier. Ever.

Can't say much about this matchup but it's quite easy to sense if they're going for tick due to strange rhythm/timing. Meh.

[Airk]

For MTW, I just 214D through it. :v

This works? o.O Magnatech wheel has an outrageous number of active frames and guardpoints for nearly an entire second - which is way longer than any invulnerability on 214D. How can you not get hit by trying to do this?

[BatousaiJ]

This works? o.O Magnatech wheel has an outrageous number of active frames and guardpoints for nearly an entire second - which is way longer than any invulnerability on 214D. How can you not get hit by trying to do this?

I did that in a combo video in CS 2.

214D on reaction when you see the super flash for MTW, you'll hit em right out of it(at least in CS 2).

No offense

But do you even understand how the fuck a grappler matchup works

I think you misunderstand what he meant by "letting him come to you" but he's a big boy and can explain himself.

[Airk]

I did that in a combo video in CS 2.

214D on reaction when you see the super flash for MTW, you'll hit em right out of it(at least in CS 2).

I think I dimly recall saying this before, but.... that makes no sense! @_@

(MTW has full body guardpoint until 51F after super flash.)

[BatousaiJ]

I think I dimly recall saying this before, but.... that makes no sense! @_@

(MTW has full body guardpoint until 51F after super flash.)

Found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=s2RqZ5U3NQM#t=191s

I haven't tested it in CSEX but I don't think 214D or MTW has changed to make that not work anymore.

[Airk]

Can't argue, but it makes no sense! @_@

[Dusk Thanatos]

I think you misunderstand what he meant by "letting him come to you" but he's a big boy and can explain himself.

I know he means charge because Tager closes space slowly. (Though charged B sledge helps that some -- not too much, but some.)

But the fact he said "let him come to you" is a fundamental misunderstanding of how you play a grappler matchup. The idea is to NOT let him come to you, so you're not in range of his bullshit. Saying "let him come to you" is like telling someone to drop the soap in prison.

[Michi]

Oh right, before I forget. I tried to bait out Tager's 2D (while you're in mag) so that I can land a 3C FC but that doesn't work. It trades. So you DO land a FC but since 2D has a good hitbox, you'll get blown off the screen. Luckily, he can't follow it up since 2D CH is such a good starter for Tager. ;_;

I'm currently having troubles with chargeable sledge being used within a blockstring. I tried to 5A/5B on reaction but I end up being hit. Also, it seems like it's plus on block too. I just thought of another thing for AC since you can bait it out too by air dashing towards them but cancelling it into a charge before you manage to be within it's range (not mag'd).

Using j.236D also baits out sledge so when you see it starting up, you can land a 236D CH then you know the rest. :3

Airk: It works a lot. Maybe it's because it works better when you're not in mag. When you see the superflash, you can be flashy and do mugen first THEN 214D. It works wonders. When you're being mag'd, it's quite harder to land due to the pull of MTW and if you're close, backdashing is not an option as the landing takes forever.

[Kiba]

I'm currently having troubles with chargeable sledge being used within a blockstring. I tried to 5A/5B on reaction but I end up being hit.

You could 22A/D him on reaction or a better option may be to just get away.

Also, it seems like it's plus on block too.

It IS + on block but I'm unsure of just how advantageous it is.

I just thought of another thing for AC since you can bait it out too by air dashing towards them but cancelling it into a charge before you manage to be within it's range (not mag'd).

That would be suicidal, and an extremely risky option. You never want to be air dashing to Tager because it will result in you being placed in a weird situation. If Tager doesn't use AC while you're airdashing and chooses to block instead, you could pressure, but this will result in you being thrown because of the many holes in Tsubaki's gatlings. Alternatively, if you do try not to be thrown and try to make it super tight, it will cost you meter. I'd rather stay out and keep my meter tbh for CAs or to to get high damage from 3CC RC combos. Tager could also 2C you while you're charging in the air, and if you blocked it you be forced onto the defensive again, and then you will be caught out just as you're about to land (as Tsubaki cannot block after charging at that time even if you are holding back/barrier). He could even 2A you out of the air.

[pktazn]

How exactly would you guys suggest approaching Tager?

I played Extend today at Winterfest and went against a pretty good Tager. While I was able to get in, I wasn't able to do it consistently. He also seemed to beat out most of my approaches with his own moves but I will admit I was being somewhat risky so that could just be the problem. Out of all the characters I played against, Tager gave me the most trouble (besides Guardian's Relius and AzureRevolver's Noel but that's another story).

EDIT: I feel like he was more aggressive than most other Tagers too.

[Kiba]

How exactly would you guys suggest approaching Tager?

I played Extend today at Winterfest and went against a pretty good Tager. While I was able to get in, I wasn't able to do it consistently. He also seemed to beat out most of my approaches with his own moves but I will admit I was being somewhat risky so that could just be the problem. Out of all the characters I played against, Tager gave me the most trouble (besides Guardian's Relius and AzureRevolver's Noel but that's another story).

I'd just use 5B at max range, and sometimes will follow up with an unblockable. So walking backwards, jumping away, and waiting. I'd be patient. I wouldn't use anything else to because they're quite limited.

What approaches did you use to try to get in? And what did they get beat by?

EDIT: I feel like he was more aggressive than most other Tagers too.

How was he being aggressive? Was the player using sledges? 2D? How was the player approaching you?

[pktazn]

Sorry, I just realized I should have been more specific aha.

I won't lie I was being dumb and hella risky when I was approaching him today. I would mostly try 5B and 5C (since it's faster) and see how that would go but he'd just block and then counter with some of his normals like 5A or command grab me. I know I used 3C a few times but was easily punished for that when he blocked it. I usually don't try to be aggressive against Tager and play patiently against him but since I had a limited time to play until the US release, I just wanted to do whatever and see how it went. But while I had found out what not to do, I didn't figure out what I could do.

He was definitely using sledge and doing whatever he could to hit me, more so than I'm used to I suppose. In hindsight if I had played patiently, I probably could have gotten him for jumping too much at times.

[Kiba]

Sorry, I just realized I should have been more specific aha.

I won't lie I was being dumb and hella risky when I was approaching him today. I would mostly try 5B and 5C (since it's faster) and see how that would go but he'd just block and then counter with some of his normals like 5A or command grab me. I know I used 3C a few times but was easily punished for that when he blocked it. I usually don't try to be aggressive against Tager and play patiently against him but since I had a limited time to play until the US release, I just wanted to do whatever and see how it went. But while I had found out what not to do, I didn't figure out what I could do.

He was definitely using sledge and doing whatever he could to hit me, more so than I'm used to I suppose. In hindsight if I had played patiently, I probably could have gotten him for jumping too much at times.

No worries, and I can see why you'd want to try out things because of the limited time.

If you are going to use blockstrings on him, be sure to end with either 5B/2C since they're jump cancellable. Bat's tight gatlings should do the trick. 6C can leave you open to a 360. 5A/2A - throws too? Too get him away to allow yourself more charge.

3C can even be punished on reaction with a 360, so it is quite risky to use. A good time to use it is when Tager is using 6A on you when you're magged. Free FC combo for you yay.

Normally, a non charged sledge can be punished with a 5B followup combo, but the real problem comes in where he may charge the sledge. You could get away and go for charge or you could attempt to throw him out of it (but it's riskier). Be sure to position yourself where you can just about punish the recovery of the sledge with a 5B/5C (which is basically near full screen).

The jumps can be beat with the usual method - Air grab, AA, or run underneath and charge more.

[BatousaiJ]

Something popular that Tagers like to do is something like 5A > 5B > 5C > 5D > 236B sledge as a block string so they're + after sledge and can continue their pressure afterwards.

You can just 5B or 22A him after 5D to hit him before the sledge lands on you with ease.

The most important thing about this match up is to play smart and get as much charge as you can before you get in on him start trying to chip away at his health.

Max distance 5B > 22D(unblockable or just delayed) works wonders in this match up like Kiba mentioned and if you're going to get in on him, try not to use 236C/D unless you want to try to catch him off of a recovery on a whiff move like 2D or 6A.

If you find them using a lot of volt charge or 6A for its guard point, start 3Cing it on reaction for a meaty FC combo.

This match up is one of those you really have to lame out and play properly but I can understand it's difficult to stick to the plan since it's a rather boring way to play =d.