[CSE] Iron Tager vs Haku-men: Re-capture the Susano-oh

[A.X.I.S.]

Haha ok lets talk about how Haku-men charged 4C doesn't work against us.

Man oh man we are at this again.

So remember CT Haku and how he always had meter?

Remember how Hakumen got good damage with very few meter?

Remember when he countered us and made us feel really bad for it?

Well this match is like CT but he has 4C and J.C!

So fun!

Objective:

Get in on Haku and inflict as much damage as you can before he escapes and hold the health lead.

Reason:

It is important that you do this because Haku IS one of those characters who can afford to wait so chip him down and force him to play more aggressive.

Aggressive Hakumen are easier to beat for us.

Far range: Voltech charge and close the distance.

Medium range: Prepare yourself, this is when it gets rocky, Hakumen has several options here, 4C and J.C is his favorite pokes, since he usually has meter expect anything at this range.

Since his special moves have good frame advantage don't expect to always punish them.

Hotaru is used to keep you out and cost 2 stars, positive on block and jump cancelable making it annoying, bad enough it fatals and leads to 3-4k midscreen with nasty corner carry.

Close range: he isn't safe here since he doesn't have entirely safe gattlings, IB and prepare for a punish, keep a eye on his meter because this is very important when it comes to defending against or catching Hakumen.

Do not use anything really slow predictably as the more savy haku-men players can catch (counter) on reaction...do not get caught.

The cost to getting countered is him getting a free star and doing 2k damage.

Haku-men strings:

• 2A>2B
  
• 2B>2B
  
• 2A>6A
  
• 2A>6B
  
• 5B>6B
  
• 6B>3C
  
• 2A>dash forward>2A/2B
  
• 2A>dash forward>hotaru (catches mash but here's a funny thing, you can late 360 and blow it up but I wouldn't rely on this...it's something to note since I seem to consistently tag it.)
  
• 2B>dash forward>Tsubaki (Dash cancel overhead, usually used near the corner, get hit and you lose 5k, 6k if he uses more meter afterwards.)
  
• anything>236B (Renka, It hits low then mid, leads to good damage.)
  
• anything>kisshu(command dash, really fast and he can do it off anything to continue pressure, can follow up to catch wreckless mash, in this match do not expect to see the follow up without jump cancel.)
  
• anything>zantetsu(big vertical swing with the sword then a horizontal slash, overhead on first hit, low on second hit for gods sake do not get hit by this! leads to good damage.)
  

I need to change the format of this a bit and do more work on it.

So messy.

[mAc Chaos]

Seems like either the match up is pretty much the same or you haven't had a chance to fight Leonil's Hakumen so far.

[A.X.I.S.]

Leonil's Haku-men is free.

[mAc Chaos]

freeonil

Maybe me or Shervin will be able to post something when Extend comes out.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

The chart says 55-45 Hakumen's favor? You guys agree? Since you said it hasn't change at all, then I agree with the Japanese players on this one.

[DeadliestxXx]

Yeah, this match up hasn't changed at all. Pretty much you have to do what AXIS says against Hakumen. What I usually do is use 5D a lot especially if they like to do 4C a lot for CH. Any other ideas to catch hakumen?

[Manta]

jumping short and landing J.Cs can sometimes work. But it's difficult to follow up with anything other than 2D. Does at least get you close.

[A.X.I.S.]

CH J.C>6A does work on grounded opponents.

[mAc Chaos]

Did you get to fight any Hakumens in Extend?

[A.X.I.S.]

I am the Hakumen of our scene...I need a ethernet cable to play on netplay or lag everywhere.

[mAc Chaos]

I am the Hakumen of our scene...

[Tae Seong Kim]

This is an annoying match up. When trying to get in during neutral game...

- When advancing towards him on the ground, always have a Spark Bolt charged and ready to hit confirm into after a distant 5C. It will beat a Hakumen 4C pretty well if timed right. Be wary as it will extend your hitbox out and loses to Hakumen's 3C. It will be a counter hit 3C as well, so he'll get a nice combo!

Don't bother too much with B Sledge, 2D, or 6A. A good Hakumen will know to wait until Tager moves, then counter. I tried to use these moves against Spark, varying the charge on 6A and B Sledge. It worked a few times early on by calling out his 5D, but got blown up for it later. Also his 3C doesn't make Tager a happy camper.

The last and simplest thing you can do to advance towards him on the ground is just walking towards him. It doesn't get you too far, but it does force the Hakumen player to poke at you. Some of which you can take advantage of, with a well timed 5C as mentioned above or a Spark Bolt.

- When trying to get in with super jC, you will be met with a few obstacles. To keep you at bay, they throw out a neutral jC, a backwards jC, Hotaru, air throw, anti air 6A, and anti air 2C. For most of these, your only real option is to block.

For the jCs, just IB it and land. Tager has no air normals that can beat this if the Hakumen spaces it properly. IBing the jC neutralizes the push back, which makes you land closer to Hakumen, somewhat limiting his ground options, plus gaining a tiny bit of meter for it. If you normal block or faultless it, then you'll land far away where you will be met with a 4C and end up where you started. One good thing however, is if the Hakumen player is playing keep away, he can't dash past under you when you are jCing towards him.

For Hotaru and air throw, you'll know it is coming because he'll be jumping right at you. You'll have to again block the Hotaru (also be ready to break a throw), but can go for a jump B if you see that he has less than 2 stars. It will beat a lot of his moves including throw if you do it early enough, and will lead into a nice combo on CH. If he does go for an air throw, do not do anything after you break it. Just get ready to block.

Finally, for his anti airs. For both you can OS faultless and 720 just before his anti air come out (buffer 720 + ABC). If the anti air was timed properly, then you will just block it. If timed badly or if the Haku tried to D you, then you will land and 720. Remember his 6A is a real anti air now, most jump ins will lose to it. But an early j2C can be used to bait it. It does not bait the 2C though. The hit box is ridiculously huge and will still get you way up.

- Going in with normal jump, you will be met with similar obstacles to Super jC. You probably won't see Hakumens use their jC to keep you away, since it can whiff and be punished. But you will probably see more 5As though. It may no have any head invulnerable properties, but it is fast! Beats out all of Tager's air normals at this height. You can bait it with j2C, but they will just recover from the 5A and block + punish. You wanna start by blocking it, of course, and wait to land before doing anything. Expect a couple of more 5A, plus either a hasty retreat, or continued pressure into mix up from your opponent. You can call out the hasty retreat with a Spark Bolt, since the most likely thingy they will do is instant air dash backwards. If they go the other route, and try to get in, be prepared for a quick mix up from Hakumen.

(Personal match experience info from playing against Spark)

[shigoshi]

My friend plays haku and...well I tend to get a bit annoyed at him for it. Currently it's to and fro about who beats who as the games are very often cases of who manages to get in first (because he knows I can perform some nasty combos that hurt a lot then force him away into a game of now I can wait and he has to get agressive) however I tend to find his drive problematic. My friend is very liberal with it, he will D me all day long with good timing even at short range. He doesn't really have many combos with haku (mainly he doesn't have that powerful air carry combo, don't know the input for it and he doesn't seem to know about it somehow) so often he relies heavily on his long range slashs and pokes to get me or keep me away. Even jumping he catchs me out (however, kin, I think you may of helped me deal with his anti-air somewhat). Is there any special properties I should know about his drive (haku's) where certain ones don't block certain tager attacks.

(however I do get him back for his cheesey D plays. I pick relius then troll him with 214b, gets him everytime ^_^).

[mAc Chaos]

You can throw him out of them.

[Osuna]

To sum up the long and somewhat annoying talk we all had in the gen discussion thread, all of Hakumen's options in GF get hit by either reversal 5A (Beats jumps/tk's, hits backdash and attacks) or like 360A (Guard/D's).

2B works as a hard call out for tk hotaru, so does a late AC.

There are weird and very specific ways for him to make this not true, but typically that is the mix up.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Random note of interest: Shippu can cause your 360s to whiff off of GF, but not 720. 5A still stuffs it though. Not trying to suggest anything off of it just pointing out a neat fact.

Shippu is a very dangerous move in neutral play as well, because he can use it on reaction to stop himself sliding towards you (he can't be moved while charging Shippu).

i.e. Tager trying to do the j.D whiff > land 720 at medium-close range. Or just about anytime you try to do a 5D within magnetism range (although this is practically suicide against Hakumen because it's piss easy to react with 6D to any of Tager's Ds)

Other random note: Be careful about 5A'ing an 8-star Hakumen, he can turn 6D into 7.5k+ with 8 stars.

Regarding more realistic things:

I don't recommend 5B at the beginning of the round. Yes it does clash with Haku 3c, but that's just it: it clashes, it doesn't win. All it will do is force you into a game of chicken you can't win.