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[CSE] Iron Tager vs Valk: Stomp da dawg

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Wolf Hazama strikes back!

This match is a pain in the rear and for all the right reasons you have to be ready for anything and I mean anything.

Be on your A game in fact go beyond 120% because if you lose too much health you will not win.

Objective:

Catch his approach and beat him down in one go, you don't want a second chance for him.

Reason:

If he hits you then you will probably lose.

Far range:

Walk forward, if you choose to VTC then do short bursts because they are harder to punish, always be aware of the distance between you and valk before you do it.

Medium range:

Expect Valk to attack you in wolf or use human 5C here, without spark he doesn't have much to fear but if he is too relaxed you can 2D in. (risky)

Close range:

If you are not on the offense then wait for your chance, make sure he commits before you try anything and IB to make him scared, pay close attention to wolf because he can command grab you. (practice 236D wolf in practice mode, that is the command grab and look at the starting frames.)

As long as you know he is gonna do ground command grab you can always backdash punish it. (Honestly I find it easier to read than most command grabs.)

If you are on the offense then mix him up, magnetize him and pummel him as usual, as TSK said below you do have higher damage combos for valk like you would for rachel and bang so go for it. (higher damage as in ACx2>2C)

Valk strings:

2AxN>2B>5C>236A

5C>236A>wolf dash(do not commit when he does 7D he can do it 2 more times to bait 2C, will lose too AC if he is too close.)

2A>2B>3C>236A

[w]5A

[w]5A>[w]5B>wolf dash (any wolf dash)

2A>6B>wolf

5C>6C

5C>6C>wolf cancel

Ending remarks: once Valk gets a sizable health lead then you will lose so don't let him do that, beat the approach.

wolf A on the ground is a low but B is not, his j.A is an overhead so he will make some really hard to block mix up.

If you don't know how to block mix up then you will after about 20 matches of this.

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Worst match up IMO. -_- Worse than Hazama, Arakune, and Mu combined. It is similar to the Hazama matchup, except with crazy mixup and pressure from the big bad wolf! Also, he has a better stay away game. Magnetism doesn't really do anything against Valk. He can simply go in wolf form and walk backwards and overcome all the pulling power of Tager's D moves.

Some parts are better. Valk has no life! Some of Tager's better combo work on him. And Valk does have trouble getting out of pressure when pinned down by the big man.

In this match up, you'll mostly see Tager being timed out. For the rare times Tager actually does get in, he usually ends up destroying Valk.

I should note that nothing has really changed from the last game. Wolf 5B can trade with Tager's jB! Yay! Valk still gets a combo... Fuuu!!! Also, something very minor.... Valk's ground Distortion seems to be a little more invulnerable. Tager used to be able to A Buster him after the Super flash. Now, you have to hold it the Buster slightly longer until Valk's invulnerbility runs out. Again, this is something very minor, and only comes up if you want to punish a Valk, with 100 meter, doing a random super.

Updated:

Getting into the match more, I end up jumping and moving around a lot right when the match begins, only sometimes pausing briefly to voltic charge a little bit. Giving the Valk player a hard time getting in and going for a mix up. Never stay still, you'll be a sitting duck. They can get in for a quick mix up get in a few hits into knock down, into ridiculous mix up again, into another combo, and knock down. They can continue to do this until you are dead. If you manage to block the mix up, they can make a swift retreat and try to get in again, or just play keep away. So don't let this happen, move around. You may wanna be a little more reserve when anti airing Valk if you find him hovering over you. 2C is easily baited and punished and 2A is a little safer but doesn't offer much. Backdash busters or simply using an A buster as anti air is legit.

Getting in on Valk can become problematic as well, but it is still easier than trying to get in on Hakumen or Mu. Tager is more of a match when it comes to air to air, or air to ground... when Valk is in human form. <_< On ground to ground combat, Valk is too much, in human or wolf form.

Air to air, you do not wanna try anything when he is in wolf form. An occasional people's elbow can trade with wolf cannon, and sometimes beat it. But for everything else, don't even try. You are pretty safe if you just block wolf cannon in the air, with no real drama. Just watch out for what he does once you land.

Air to ground is a bit easier in CS Extend, with the overall nerf Valk received. His wolf 5B has a bit of more recovery and trades a lot now. He still gets in a combo during trade.

On the ground, you'll run into the usual zoning moves. You should be familiar with these (Noel's 5B, Ragna's 5B and 5C, Jin's 5C, Hakumen's 4C and 5C, and so on...). Valk has human 5C, which may not be the most annoying, but does a good job at keeping you away. You can use 5C as a counter poke, but this loses pretty bad to wolf form. However, the moment you get Spark Bolt, things change! You can charge in (walk) with some confidence, knowing that their options are now limited on the ground in both human and wolf forms. They may take to the air to go around it, or just wait for you to use it and block. If they wait, close the gap. Be very conservative when using Spark Bolt, and try use it for combo only. Magnetism has very little affect against Valk, and probably is the character least affected by it. If you do use it for magnetism, you'll have a couple of chances to get in before it wears out. One tool that works pretty well in this situation is Tager's 2D. Very plus on block, very active, and moves him forward. Yes it is slow, but hard to react at a few character lengths. Switch this up with Atomic Collider to get in there. Even if 2D is block, you are almost guaranteed pressure again due to the frame advantage it grants on block. Once you get in a combo, end all of it with Gadget Finger to keep him close.

A couple of more notes...

2C works on Valk when in OTG state. So you can more damaging combos like 5C 6A, AC, AC (whiff), 2C, MTW, 3C, AC (whiff), j2C, 5B, 5C, Spark Bolt, 6C, j2C, 3C, Gadget. This combo can come up quite often, when you catch a Valk trying to backdash after Tager's 2D or Gadget Finger.

(Personal match up experience from playing Huey253 and Shyn)

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When Valk in human form I'd use j.D and j.C to approach, spacing it of course you don't want to get 6A'd. however in wolf form I'm not sure how to go about it, spaced j.C would clash with he's 5B, if I'm too close I'll lose, j.D would be stupid, best to hang back a little and get spark bolt to stop him changing back and forth to human/wolf.

Valk's 5C still has that extended hitbox at the end of the active frames right? You could possibly poke him with 5A/4D/5C

Also when Valk is OTG after AC, walk > j.C whiff > j.B works, I don't do this much anymore now that AC stun is less in extend, but its good to know if you happened to AC him to the corner j.B > 5C > [A] Sledge > Hammer > 5C > 4D etc.

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Personal experience shows me that Tager's 3 lightest pokes are the best. Don't bother with command throws for the most part, he's airborne way too much, but conversely, random ACs catch a lot of shit.

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This is the only matchup in this entire game that I have truly felt like: "Okay...I really can't do anything."

If Valkenhayn wants the round timer to tick to 0, there's nothing you can do about it. It's really frustrating, because you definitely can win if Valkenhayn decides to attack you, but if he doesn't want to, you'll never be doing any fighting. The key thing that differentiates Valkenhayn from the others is his ability to run backwards.

Thank you for the info TSN though, even if it doesn't solve the "turtling" problem this matchup has.

You can charge in (walk) with some confidence,

lol this made my day.

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Not like I know how to play Tager...but won't Voltic Charge be like baiting him out with doggy biscuits? Whenever Im playing Haz or Tsubaki, Valky turtles fly in like theres no tommorow whenever I go into Serpent's Benediction/Charge. No one like to see you being productive just by standing there.

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The only thing that Valky seriously has to worry about/take into consideration in this match-up is spark bolt in my opinion (this of course assumes that the Valky has decided to turtle).

The best advice I could give to a Tager player is to be constantly moving and not throwing out unsafe shit 24/7 because it will be punished.

Yomi is extremely important in match-up as well.

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The best advice I could give to a Tager player is to be constantly moving.

I'm sorry, only Golden Tager has access to the wings.

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I tend to spam 2B/5B to stuff "some" approaches, backdash > 360A best dash ins also, but Valk could just delay the in coming attack.

Spark is the go to with this. NEVER use spark unless you are getting a hit or a combo, can't stress that enough when all Valk needs to do is walk back to ware out magnetism.

However an idea is using spark and going for 2D when you got him in the corner, mid range he's just gonna back dash (wolf mode) the 2D and easily punish you.

Spark > RC > 2D max range (for frame advantage) would work more in your favour, at least then you can apply pressure.

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I tend to spam 2B/5B to stuff "some" approaches, backdash > 360A best dash ins also, but Valk could just delay the in coming attack.

Spark is the go to with this. NEVER use spark unless you are getting a hit or a combo, can't stress that enough when all Valk needs to do is walk back to ware out magnetism.

However an idea is using spark and going for 2D when you got him in the corner, mid range he's just gonna back dash (wolf mode) the 2D and easily punish you.

Spark > RC > 2D max range (for frame advantage) would work more in your favour, at least then you can apply pressure.

That was an old CT Nu strat. Wow.

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Seriously? Well that's sad for multiple reasons

1) That I even suggest something that could of been common knowledge, or useless.

2) That it's a strategy from CT, although it puzzles me that one would use 5D/2D back then when all that'd ever do is blow away your opponent only making your situation worse, if they were not in the corner. Like why block them to allow Tager to be close.

3) That even after 4 iterations he has a match up like this not once, or twice but at least three times.

Now whether if what I said was common knowledge and helped in any way, it's sad that I hardly ever seen it used after so much videos I've watched.

If it was useless, well I apologies for even mentioning it, shut my mouth and screw this match up.

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In other words, pick another character. :<

Pretty much, or go make a delicious sandwich to munch while watching Tager systematically get disassembled.

I played another Valk on PSN the other day. I managed to win one round by abusing 2A down-back nonsense, trying to grab his 5C.jA stuff. The second round I won by getting 2 720s in a row, I don't think that counts as a legitimate strategy, though.

Basically your chance of winning is dictated by how patient/impatient Valkenhayn is.

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Okay I've figured out how to beat this matchup reliably:

On the character select screen, put your cursor over Tager and act as though you're browsing color selections. Once he locks in Valkenhayn, ninja your cursor onto Hazama at the last moment.

The timing is difficult but easy once you get used to it. Unfortunately this strategy will be debunk in CP because the opponent can see whether you're actually browsing colors or not.

---

In seriousness, I'm curious how this matchup will be changed in CP. My guess is not very much if Valkenhayn can still run backwards. I wonder if a tk360C/tkGP could possibly win against Wolf rush

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Well, a few key points would most likely be...

Our damage has been severely weakened in CP, we got a wolf regen nerf, w.5A no longer hits low so our mix-up is slightly weakened, and we have much less meter for CA's this time around.

You guys also have seem to have some sort of upwards spark bolt this time around which may prove to be useful. I don't know too much about Tager's changes other then that though.

The match-up seems to be more or less the same, other then the fact that you guys have more leeway and room for error this time around. It's still most definitely in Valkenhayn's favor however.

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I'm curious to see how much of a threat Tager would become in this situation: magnetized Valkehayn > (Tager) Activate OD > Regular magnetism stuff. The extra, constant pull from your OD might debunk his ability to run backwards out of everything.

I wonder if 360C pulls Valkenhayn up out of his 5C grounded Rasen wolf.

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Well, a few key points would most likely be...

Our damage has been severely weakened in CP, we got a wolf regen nerf, w.5A no longer hits low so our mix-up is slightly weakened, and we have much less meter for CA's this time around.

You guys also have seem to have some sort of upwards spark bolt this time around which may prove to be useful. I don't know too much about Tager's changes other then that though.

The match-up seems to be more or less the same, other then the fact that you guys have more leeway and room for error this time around. It's still most definitely in Valkenhayn's favor however.

Damage weakened? But he's doing a ton.

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Damage weakened? But he's doing a ton.

(He's speaking from Valkenhayn's perspective)

Does CP Valkenhayn have no wolf form Lows then? That makes blocking considerably easier.

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Yes, he does. Since w.5A no longer hits low they had to give him a new low hitting wolf normal, which is w.5C. It's much slower (in comparison to w.5A's start-up of 6 frames) and it doesn't chain into itself 3 times. However, the proration is evidently much better. He's essentially compensated some of his mix-up for a bit more damage in this regard.

He also has a new wolf overhead which is wj.C.

Blocking Valkenhayn is still not easy (which makes sense since he is pure rushdown character) but it is somewhat easier.

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I think it's explanation enough at how bad this MU is that I'm clutching at these feeble rays of hope like this.

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How pessimistic of you.

Specifically, what are you having trouble with in relation to Valkenhayn? Perhaps I can alleviate a few of your issues. Aside from his ability to run away from you if he/she chooses to do so, of course.

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Specifically, what are you having trouble with in relation to Valkenhayn? Perhaps I can alleviate a few of your issues.

That's nice of you, see the problem I'm havi-

Aside from his ability to run away from you if he/she chooses to do so, of course.

:|

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