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gli

[CSE] Rachel vs. Mu-12

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I'm having problems with this matchup.

Any advice? I notice George and rods are a great tool here since Mu can't get rid of frog as easy as pumpkin.

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Try to get in as soon as possible. Frog and Pumpkin are near useless in this MU on neutral because of them lazorz, so don't give her the chance to setup. Sticking Lobelias and poles in her face before she can summon Steins is probably the safest option on neutral tough. If you are brave, try to get in without your tools. An example is a winded airdash as a good way to be fast in Mu's face, but don't get too predictable with it. Her 2C AA is very good.

In the corner you shouldn't have to worry about her DP as long as you do 5CC 214A oki. Walk a bit back before you throw your 5B/A lobelia to prevent her from escaping while staying out of DP range. George takes care of the rest.

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l actually think frog is really good in neutral, none of mu's lasers hit him at all (not even 236d or 214d). mu has to deal with him personally with a normal/236a(situational)/sod, giving you time to regen wind or possibly mount an offense. lasers hit few and far between, you have plenty of time to wind him to a good position. plus you can block while george is out. no character wants george out on the screen dictating the space theyre allowed to tread in. the only negative is getting him out, which shouldnt be a problem if you know how mu's drive works (specifically, when they will fire)

l might be crazy but l still feel this MU is in rachel's favor - 5.5 -4.5 just because of how easy it is for rachel to stop most things involving steins including mu's oki

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Really? I never got the chance to set that guy on neutral. Lasers/6C always hit me when I did it. Maybe I did it too slow after a blocked lobelia, and a FC 6C especially hurts lol. Also, the Mu players I fight tend to place a Stein next to my face first. Summoning gets really hard then, though wind dashing works very good if they do.

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even when mu summons a stein, you have a full 2 seconds (117f for the small laser + n for the time it takes to get to you) to do whatever. full george animation takes a little over 1 second (65f) to complete. in essence you react to a stein summon by getting him out. also, the absolute safest place to do this is outside 236a/214c and to a lesser extent, IAD j.c range since after setting a stein, she has no access to normals unless she jumps.

and if she does get wind of your scheme (lolpun), you can a lobelia in her face to condition her not to do 6c/5c or whatever. you carry her pretty far to the corner with most combos, that should be enough to scare her. dont even worry about her getting in your face; her mixup is pretty lol, and once george is out theyre gonna want to run in and pressure/throw, and you have the tools to keep her out. make her come to you, something alot of mu players arent comfortable with

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but she can go in and throw you in lazorz blockstun if you summon george. After throw break she have better pokes than rachel=(

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I will rush your shit down.

As a note: µ can stein cancel 2d/4d ground set into SoD, which will 1HKO george, with the stein she canceled from as backup to cover against air approaches and flaking projectiles moving towards her above SoD's hitbox.

If you're looking to beat her pokes in neutral, you're not going to be able to reliably accomplish that without pumpkin punishing things on whiff, placing which puts you at the mercy of IAD j.c CH. Luckily her pokes aren't the hardest to dodge, and can be capitalized on so long as you have the resources.

I'd say the matchup is roughly even, Rachel has no special way of escaping µ's oki game, and no reversal options to deal with guardcrush-oriented setups that easily trash her 4 primers. Rachel is slightly dominant with onscreen resources out, but gets no extraordinary damage for punishing µ for making mistakes, whereas the opposite is true for µ; as a single mistake in terms of summoning or tossing a lobelia is an easy 7-8k callout from j.c/6c.

The hardest part of this matchup for rachel is definitely dealing with j.c and suffering from 4primer syndrome. Beat j.c by being under it; beat poor defensive options by doing the knocking down yourself, all you can look for really.

but she can go in and throw you in lazorz blockstun if you summon george. After throw break she have better pokes than rachel=(

After throw/airthrow break 5c/j.c are pretty incontestable, unless you have some kind of incredibly risky move or are top tier.

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I'd say the matchup is roughly even, Rachel has no special way of escaping µ's oki game, and no reversal options to deal with guardcrush-oriented setups that easily trash her 4 primers. Rachel is slightly dominant with onscreen resources out, but gets no extraordinary damage for punishing µ for making mistakes, whereas the opposite is true for µ; as a single mistake in terms of summoning or tossing a lobelia is an easy 7-8k callout from j.c/6c.

I haven't tried it out myself but can't Rachel just escape her oki/guard-crush setups with a winded tech?

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She can but only if the Mu commits to a fancier setup. If Mu just waits a bit and meaty 5Bs Rachel will probably want to burst if they haven't already...

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Never ever ever throw George or a lobelia out during neutral. The results are horrendous if µ is on the ball haha.

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I haven't tried it out myself but can't Rachel just escape her oki/guard-crush setups with a winded tech?

Bomb is some ungodly amount of active frames, and the startup is all standing, so she's not going to be flipping over mu, and will land in the meaty blast just like any other character -1 stock.

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correction to my last post: george dosent take 65f for rachel to fully complete the animation. it takes 49f on the ground...... l actually dunno what the 65f stands for :psyduck: (65+31 frames to activate seems a little lengthy so i'm confused)

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I think it's 65f summon + 31f minimum startup time on his actual attack?

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I think it's 65f summon + 31f minimum startup time on his actual attack?

Pretty sure it's this. That's actually a rather messy way of noting it in the frame data, but I guess they didn't want to put it in the notes section?

It's 65 frames from the time Rachel starts summoning George until the time when he can start attacking (assuming ground summon), and 31 frames for the startup of his attack. Slower startup than CS1, better startup than CT.

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I strongly dont think its roughly even, not only does rachel have to think about everything she does(and mu no so much) but mu is better in every catogory you can think of. Better zoning, better normals, way better damage, better guard crush. Rachel has to totally out play mu-12 to when the only saving grace is that rachel can zone m-12 but doesnt get as much damage and it all requires time and risk to get zoning started. Mu_12 has very little risk when zoning and that ball of light move has to be the best always available projectile in the game. It does everything you could want it to do.

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I strongly dont think its roughly even, not only does rachel have to think about everything she does(and mu no so much) but mu is better in every catogory you can think of. Better zoning, better normals, way better damage, better guard crush. Rachel has to totally out play mu-12 to when the only saving grace is that rachel can zone m-12 but doesnt get as much damage and it all requires time and risk to get zoning started. Mu_12 has very little risk when zoning and that ball of light move has to be the best always available projectile in the game. It does everything you could want it to do.

Mu's zoning is also very risky, she has just as many on-demand tools as Rachel, one. And even then, 236a has slow startup and easily loses to correct play by the opponent, on top of that, it's almost useless in a variety of matchups (Hakumen especially). I would say the character advantage of Mu is the might higher damage output, but let's be honest, she does more damage than any character in the entire game.

I personally think the lamest thing Mu has in this matchup is level 2+ SoD, because it's near impossible for Rachel to punish on both startup or recovery, and she only has 4 primers.

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rachel can 2c sod on reaction. theres no reason not to. as soon as l see sod animation, 2c is already being mash- uh...inputted. i'm going to test later if max range sod beats 2c, but otherwise, 2c can and should be used if sod is not level 1.

l still think that matchup is even or slightly rachel's favor :psyduck: maybe i'm just crazy or something XD

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Mu can basically bully Rachel in this matchup, she's allowed to do whatever the fuck she wants... but if you play reaaaaally patiently, get used to move around a lot without pressing buttons, and block well, it's winnable.

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rachel can 2c sod on reaction. theres no reason not to. as soon as l see sod animation, 2c is already being mash- uh...inputted. i'm going to test later if max range sod beats 2c, but otherwise, 2c can and should be used if sod is not level 1.

l still think that matchup is even or slightly rachel's favor :psyduck: maybe i'm just crazy or something XD

They should have a meaty stein to CH you out of cat chair and have it combo into SoD.

If you mean 2c'ing out of SoD ender to pressure, 3c tk j.236a is so free and godly in this matchup they should only really be using SoD in gapless situations. j.236a > Level 2 SoD is also really good.

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Mu can basically bully Rachel in this matchup, she's allowed to do whatever the fuck she wants... but if you play reaaaaally patiently, get used to move around a lot without pressing buttons, and block well, it's winnable.

This is how I feel, out think her, out block her, out space her, try and counter her and you can win. But overall she does not have to work harder then rachel in this matchup.

rachel can 2c sod on reaction. theres no reason not to. as soon as l see sod animation, 2c is already being mash- uh...inputted. i'm going to test later if max range sod beats 2c, but otherwise, 2c can and should be used if sod is not level 1.

l still think that matchup is even or slightly rachel's favor :psyduck: maybe i'm just crazy or something XD

This is what people were saying in cs1(match was even or rachels favor), when it actually was 6-4 i feel like people are so quick to say that some of the harder match-ups are in rachel favor. This may just be because your not playing against a very good mu-12 because frankly many of them in netplay are ass.

Mu's zoning is also very risky, she has just as many on-demand tools as Rachel, one. And even then, 236a has slow startup and easily loses to correct play by the opponent, on top of that, it's almost useless in a variety of matchups (Hakumen especially). I would say the character advantage of Mu is the might higher damage output, but let's be honest, she does more damage than any character in the entire game.

I personally think the lamest thing Mu has in this matchup is level 2+ SoD, because it's near impossible for Rachel to punish on both startup or recovery, and she only has 4 primers.

Her zoning is muchhhhhh less risky then rachels, much easier to do, can be done to lock you down without worry, and effects you easily at any distance. The ball of light allows you to easily set-up behind it and she can reset more orbs behind the blue laser beam to repeat the process. once you put something out rachel has to know that pumpkin is probabdly useless. The ball of light move mu-12 does is godly and shits on all of rachels options outside of a winded frog or tempest dahlia. Mu-12 movement is fast and her normals are really strong from range and upclose. Rachel has to work around all this without the freedom of setting up, lobelia's(thankfully keep rods when she hit) and extended movement with wind are her only saving grace.

In this match-up the above makes mu-12 have an easier time over rachel in my opinion, not mentioning the other over powered shit like stupid long guard crushing severely frame advantage giving orbs, damage output, a beam that doesnt go away when she is hit or prorates like normal shit does(pumpkin prorates 700-900 of same combo started with 5b), aerial dp rapids into a combo an anti air that sends you upward for easy hit confirms, etc.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6osTAgvyBg#t=4m5s Starting at 4:07 to show the rachel potential as player in a match-up versus lambda that not in her favor traditionally. then Right after is a match of rachel vs mu-12, now after looking at the match...does this look even or in some crazy dimension look in rachel's favor. Again If your beating certain mu-12 it doesnt mean the match-up is easier then you would think, it may be because most mu-12 players are really bad.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6osTAgvyBg#t=4m5s Starting at 4:07 to show the rachel potential as player in a match-up versus lambda that not in her favor traditionally. then Right after is a match of rachel vs mu-12, now after looking at the match...does this look even or in some crazy dimension look in rachel's favor. Again If your beating certain mu-12 it doesnt mean the match-up is easier then you would think, it may be because most mu-12 players are really bad.

Agreed I hate this MU. That was painful to watch :'(

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