[CSE] Rachel vs. Bang

[gli]

Summary:

Fullscreen:

Midscreen:

Pressure:

[TD]

any reliable way to deal with 5a/ jump spam? l know its netplay but damn

[gli]

That is exactly the type of mashing I was talking about. I haven't found a reliable answer for it and it's so much less tolerable online.

[swordiris]

Yeah Bangs can be annoying. I noticed most Bangs go for low starters though so I always block low when I know Bang's coming.

[Chiizu]

If anything, this matchup is more like a war of attrition. Just summon pumpkin when you're safe, it'll make them waste nails making it/trying to make it disappear, and that's big. Once Bang is out of nails, his options are very limited, mainly offensively as his nails are an excellent way to approach and keep the pressure on, but also defensively (A nail and B nail are very useful at sniping and make you think twice about approaching recklessly).

You'll probably block a fair bit in this matchup, as long as Bang has nails that is. Things you have to look out for, tick command grabs, 5C (just look out for his A attacks or 5B) and more importantly, 2B. Why 2B? because he can freaking jump cancel it on block, then TK his D nails, and then fuck with your brain faster than I can say "Mum" (A's, command grab, name it, he can do it). It's also a veeeeeeeery bad idea to burst on 2B, for aforementioned jump cancel properties, and because he has 2 airdashes, he can just IAD backwards, then back in, and make you pay for being stupid, for free.

As for A spam, lolonline.

[YukiBlue]

Always block low on his ground approach. His overhead is slow as shit and you can 2C him right out of it. From the air he is a bit scarier for the fact he can cross up with little to no effort. Putting you right in his strong mixup game.

With 50 Heat he can do 6B (Overhead) > RC > 5A Crouching into 5D ect. But not many Bang players will open with this move anyway.

Also, any bang worth his salt will shadow step naked lobelias for free. Especially with 6D which with the correct teleport puts him right in your face (Or behind your back!). You can counter it kinda easily, but it's incredibly fast so you would need to commit to a 2C or whatever.

Also, His command grab is a lot less scary in extend. RC'ing that shit gets like 4K at best in the corner. Just stay mobile and pin him down, His defence is balls. Especially his AA's

[Chiizu]

His overhead is slow as shit and you can 2C him right out of it.

... 18 frames mang, fastest ground overhead in the game, jump cancellable on block, insane reach. (that's 5C btw)

[YukiBlue]

Feels longer than 18 frames. Plus is pretty telegraphed.

[Sakaku]

5C hits on the 24th frame against crouchers.

[YukiBlue]

I thought it was 23 but WELP. I read that and was like 18? Cant be right. But I didn't want to be chewy or anything.

[Chazmobile]

Just to correct a few misconceptions but Bang's anti air is a lot stronger now. He got massive hitbox buffs to most of his normals and his air normals are fucking stupid now. Never, EVER try to beat out J.b, it will hit you and you will cry. His 5b has a very, very silly hitbox, I have anti-aired people behind me with it and almost a head above me. His defense still leaves something to be desired but with 50 meter he has a safe, damaging reversal that gives him good knockdown. Honestly you can 2c most guardpoints on reaction.

6b should be feared with 50 meter, it got a proration buff and leads to a good 4-5k in the corner and over 3k midscreen with really strong corner carry as you can go 6b>rapid>5b. Moreover, now that Bang has crouching combos (gasp) which lead into the airdash J.4c combo and his standing confirms also lead into it it means that any hit from Bang will hurt and push you close to the corner. The plus side though is that he cannot straight up 6c>J.d on Rachel, meaning he can still only get 2 seals max from a standing confirm. But, FRKZ is pretty much round over if he touches you with it.

Command grab is still something to be respected, 4k is nothing to sniff at and add that onto the damage he has already done to bring you to the corner and get 50 heat and you're looking at a dead or almost dead Rachel. Another thing to note but if Bangs opt to do airdash J.b>J.c oki after they knock you down with J.c, don't wind tech, you can be air command grabbed on reaction. I've done it and it's hilarious.

All in all, Bang is much much stronger in this version. He has a great air to air and air to ground game and a fairly good anti air, particularly against Rachel. He deals with zoning better than most characters and is terrifying in the corner, once again this is emphasised by Rachel's crappy defence, the worst (or best part for Bang) about this fact is that he can easily bring you to the corner off of any confirm with the J.c relaunch and still get a knockdown.

[Chiizu]

Actually you can 6C>j.D Rachel if you skip the 2B, or so I heard, might need confirmation on this.

[Herbal Grey]

Just to correct a few misconceptions but Bang's anti air is a lot stronger now.

bang has no anti-air. 2d is not an anti-air if that's what you're referring to

[Chazmobile]

bang has no anti-air. 2d is not an anti-air if that's what you're referring to

I know his 2d is not an anti-air. I'm referring to his buffed hitboxes on 5b and 5a(I believe) which mean that he can use them far more reliably as anti-airs. he does not have a 'conventional' anti-air so to speak, but his 5b and 5a are both quite good from my experience.

Moreover, the fact that Rachel doesn't exactly have the best jump-ins doesn't help her case.

[gli]

This match-up is ass. Have yet to fight a Bang that uses bumpers properly.

[Herbal Grey]

rachel doesn't ever approach someone from the air without pumpkin really unless it's random j.2c or a triangle jump with 1/3d j.b (and those two options aren't really used in this matchup). if bang is mashing 5a or 5b while you're approaching from the air, that's a free pumpkin summon and hit-confirm for you. this is the one situation that rachel actually beats bang at. air to air, ground to ground, and under bang are the situations you don't want to have.

bang's best option if he's below and you are above is to jump -> air grab....not mash

@gli....bangs don't use bumpers cuz they're [bumpers are] not very good [against rachel] unless for oki. it's not worth spending a nail on a bumper, especially when nails are so good. rachel's winded mobility kinda pwns bumper action

[gli]

Ashura is + on block right? You can actually cat chair on reaction to super flash if you are close enough (risky).

[YukiBlue]

Not sure of the numbers but Ashura is definitely - on block. It's really difficult to punish properly (-2? -7?)

[kotokot]

Ashura is + on block right? You can actually cat chair on reaction to super flash if you are close enough (risky).

-7. feels kinda stupid because to punish it properly you have to ib it.

[gli]

It's also easy to be too far to punish it :V

[gli]

Against Bang you can check his blockstring. If he does 2A > 2A > stuff you can actually backdash after the last 2A.

[gli]

Played more of this match again. It's amazing how much work patience does for you. You sort of just wait until the Bang player defeats himself and you punish them for doing any number of dumb things.

Examples:

• Bang 3C in neutral without meter to make it safe. It was mostly in the endgame that this was relevant.
  
• Random Daifunka with 100 heat. Jump out so it doesn't get you in blockstun so they cannot RC for safety!
  
• Stalling until they run out of nails. It's easy to do this since your wind recharges whereas their nails are limited in use.
  

[Kuuhaku]

When Bang goes for his cross up kick, the best option is generally to backdash out rather than be forced to block or try to challenge it with 6A.

[TD]

how would that even work? are you saying to backdash into the crossup?

[Airk]

how would that even work? are you saying to backdash into the crossup?

Kinda. The hitbox on the "crossup kick" (aka j.4B) isn't really very big, so you can use your backdash invulnerability to move to where it won't hit you anymore.

The danger here is that if you autopilot the backdash and do it too early, or if he starts predicting the backdash, your opponent can do a j.C instead and hit you.