[CSE] Hazama vs. Hakumen

[Dusty]

Discuss Extend match up here.

[Samtastic]

I find this mathup very annoying considering Hakumens massive ranged on his C attacks and if you engage on him with your D, you'll find yourself in a paper, scissor rock game, if you attack he might counter with his drive and if you decide to grab he might attack, Some help on what to do and how to engage would be great, also the only thing I found that helps me is to engage with differnt types of drives, like first 5D -> D and then 5D -> B etc

[Putin]

Hakus might have an extra option against fly-ins, but Hazamas have a lot more.

You can cancel your momentum with something like wiff j.A/air throw if you think he's gonna mash D, cross him up, cancel into another chain, or even just fly next to him and block to see how he reacts.

I guess it all comes down to the player, if you're playing randoms then just observe while annoying them with chains. Just watch for them 4 stars, because he gets meter just by sitting there.

I also find command throw to be godly in this matchup.

What I'm having trouble with against a Haku I play is air to air fly ins; I opt for air throws on these occasions, but I usually get j.2C'd.

This probably happens because I'm too easy to read and he can react to it quickly enough, but I guess that's not something that can be fixed overnight.

Jump in j.2C pressure is also gay, I know I can just block since Haku's blockstrings don't seem that scary, but I'm used to AAing almost anything with 5A.

Dashing approaches are easy to deal with, if you have enough time to stance 214B usually beats him, but close jump ins are really annoying me.

Fuck j.2C.

Remove the Ds' guardpoint from behind him in the next game, please and thanks.

[_Sey]

So how is this match up not 6-4 in hakumen's favor if not worse?

Hazama never ever has any kind of advantage in this match up, the risk/reward of doing any sort of oki on hakumen is just not worth it unless we have 50 meter, and even then it's still shit.

Can't mash on wake up because dash hotaru beats every option Hazama has.

Or he can just dash and if he sees Hotenjin's flash he can input 6D and beat it.

He only needs to land a 2d or 6D to tell Hazama to gtfo with his shitty rushdown; he gets faaar more damage off anything he may mash during your blockstring than Hazama will ever be able to get unless he has 50% meter.

Since there's no point in rushing him down, you'd think that laming him out would be a better idea.

Nope, because you just give him more stars and Kishuu is retarded.

2C is the best AA in this match up, 5A is useless.

2C can still randomly lose to his jB, I have no idea why.

His tick throw/trm game is way too strong and deal waaaaaaay too much damage if he lands a throw while he has you in the corner.

Which pretty much happens everytime since any random hit will corner carry.

Off a 214D~A Hazama can do iad very late j2C and if he does 2D/6D/Hotaru he lose/gets counterhit.

Still useless because he could get lucky and do a random jump back jB while inputting Hotaru or 5D, or do 2D/6D a bit later.

If you land a 214D~A you get 3 reps of [dash 5A 5B], if you land a 6A you get 4.

tl;dr:

If Hazama is put into the corner he's pretty much dead and has to deal with a retardly strong okizeme.

His 6A will prevent any roll attempt and right after that he gets to go crazy on you with dash hotaru, dash tsubaki, throw/trm setups, jB fuzzy guard etc.

Can't mash Hountejin on wake up because dash Hotaru / 6D will beat it.

Hazama can run away but that will just help Hakumen more than anything because he'll be getting tons of meter for just holding downback.

Midscreen his mixup isn't TOO strong, but his throw game is still good.

It's still very scary if he has enough magatama to convert any random 2a/2b tho.

He has insane reward off random counters which pretty much skews the risk/reward of our 214D~A oki (I'm not gonna say that it's in his favour because of course it's not, but it does feel like it's not even worth trying).

Seriously, this shit is worse than Taokaka and even more enraging.

Please someone tell me if I'm wrong on anything or something, because I truly believe this is Hazama's worst match up (not that my opinion matters much, just sayin').

[NoSales]

I'd like to point out Hakumen's 6A now has head invincibility, making it a fairly decent AA, especially on CH where he can combo after it. I've punished a few bad aerial approaches using Hak's 6A against Hazama.

And while you should be keeping track of it in the first place, keep an eye on Hazama's drive stock. If you whiff a chain and let Hakumen get in, you're going to be in for it.

[Lich]

So how is this match up not 6-4 in hakumen's favor if not worse?

Hazama never ever has any kind of advantage in this match up, the risk/reward of doing any sort of oki on hakumen is just not worth it unless we have 50 meter, and even then it's still shit.

Can't mash on wake up because dash hotaru beats every option Hazama has.

Or he can just dash and if he sees Hotenjin's flash he can input 6D and beat it.

Why are you mashing on wake up vs. Haku-men? Or at all really. Are you really afraid of his weak mix-up? Barrier block and jump out, everything is such a high level.

He only needs to land a 2d or 6D to tell Hazama to gtfo with his shitty rushdown; he gets faaar more damage off anything he may mash during your blockstring than Hazama will ever be able to get unless he has 50% meter.

2D doesn't actually warrant that much damage; sure it gives him oki, but why is anyone scared of his pressure. His pressure is weak and so is his mix-up. Sure if you get hit after that, that is big damage, but barrier is your friend. Hazama also gets a ton of damage off grabs and tons of meter off command grabs which you should be abusing in this match up. Believe it or not Hazama gains meter pretty fucking fast where that risk/reward goes in Hazama's favor. Also, 214D~A level 1 charge can be combo'd into 5a on a crouching opponent. Hazama can actually get 4k off it in the corner with 50% meter and get all that meter back. Also, 5a can be used as a pressure tool so its easy to do tick throw mix-ups.

Since there's no point in rushing him down, you'd think that laming him out would be a better idea.

Nope, because you just give him more stars and Kishuu is retarded.

Yes, honestly it is a little better to keep your space and yes that does in fact mean Haku-men will only be more scary if he gets in. Although, at the same time, Hazama is getting the meter to make their damage pretty much the same.

2C is the best AA in this match up, 5A is useless.

2C can still randomly lose to his jB, I have no idea why.

You're miss timing 2c.

His tick throw/trm game is way too strong and deal waaaaaaay too much damage if he lands a throw while he has you in the corner.

Which pretty much happens everytime since any random hit will corner carry.

.

Any character can do this, it is just easier with Haku-men This is just learning how to deal with pressure. You need to start blocking on wake up and actually start paying attention to the opponent.

Off a 214D~A Hazama can do iad very late j2C and if he does 2D/6D/Hotaru he lose/gets counterhit.

Still useless because he could get lucky and do a random jump back jB while inputting Hotaru or 5D, or do 2D/6D a bit later.

If you land a 214D~A you get 3 reps of [dash 5A 5B], if you land a 6A you get 4.

Thats useless yet funny. Also you'll probably drop it. After 214d~A 5a houtenjin gets you 3.3k midscreen and like 30 meter? So that might not be useful, but corner you what I said up there ^ so yeah. Otherwise you still get a good amount of meter and you get knockdown.

tl;dr:

If Hazama is put into the corner he's pretty much dead and has to deal with a retardly strong okizeme.

His 6A will prevent any roll attempt and right after that he gets to go crazy on you with dash hotaru, dash tsubaki, throw/trm setups, jB fuzzy guard etc.

Can't mash Hountejin on wake up because dash Hotaru / 6D will beat it.

Hazama can run away but that will just help Hakumen more than anything because he'll be getting tons of meter for just holding downback.

Try blocking. Barrier block. Jump out. His pressure is free. Stop mashing every option on wake up.

Midscreen his mixup isn't TOO strong, but his throw game is still good.

It's still very scary if he has enough magatama to convert any random 2a/2b tho.

He has insane reward off random counters which pretty much skews the risk/reward of our 214D~A oki (I'm not gonna say that it's in his favour because of course it's not, but it does feel like it's not even worth trying).

Abuse grabs, keep him honest.

Seriously, this shit is worse than Taokaka and even more enraging.

Please someone tell me if I'm wrong on anything or something, because I truly believe this is Hazama's worst match up (not that my opinion matters much, just sayin').

This is not Hazama's worst match-up. Taokaka is Hazama's worst match-up. Honestly imo this match-up is 5-5 but Hazama has to change his playstyle most for this character. Most characters Hazama is able to play roughly the same, few adjustments here and there but your play must adapt a lot. Pay attention to him when you're launching chains and don't be too coregraphed with them, don't let him cut them. If he does cut them, don't auto-pilot into the black void. Hazama mix-up is still good vs. him. Hazama gets real good damage midscreen off backgrab and big damage off front throw in corner even without meter. Also, a command grab is Haku-mens worst enemy. Not only can hazama get good damage off it, but it definitely helps with the meter gain. Hazama only needs 50% meter to make the risk/reward even and before that he is able to use more tools on haku-men to open him up and get good damage. I feel like your biggest issue is that you clearly don't ever try to just block when he manages to hit you.

[_Sey]

Well, the hountejin on wake up stuff was mostly a reminder for the match up.

Yeah, mashing on wake up is bad, but sometimes you just gotta diceroll (well, not in this match up ).

Yeah, I should probably block more, or, well, I should definitely look into "abusing" barrier a bit more.

And while I can agree his mix up midscreen is pretty weak (his TRM game is really strong though, sure everyone can do it but Hakumen's is above average imho), I don't see how his corner oki isn't very strong (especially against Hazama because of his hurtbox).

Fuzzy guards with jB and hop mix ups/throws are very strong and very (very) rewarding if they land.

About miss timing 2C, that's not completely true.

After testing it a bit more, 2C wins 99% of the time, but try putting yourself in the corner and having Hakumen do a very low IAD and jB asap (he can cancel his IAD pretty early).

That's pretty hard to react to (unless you just throw 2C out there) and will beat 2C AA (but will lose to 5A AA).

Look up the latest Mitsurugi vs PRFArmy match and you'll notice this "setup" and Mitsurugi being counter hit out of 2C's startup.

Also using 5A as a pressure tool is good, but it's kinda iffy against Hakumen at times, it's nothing like when used against Tager.

To understand what I mean, in training mode record the dummy doing dash x2 5AAA against Hakumen set as crouching/block everything and watch how the training dummy blocks, then play it back and try to block it yourself;

training mode tricks~

I admit I was pretty salty when I made my previous post, so it may have come off way too whiny

I still hate the stupid reward he gets off any hit/6D and I find that this alone can skew the match up in his favour though.

Once Hazama gets in he needs to make it count and kill him with, like, two corner mix up, otherwise Hakumen's comeback potential is too strong.

[Lich]

Well, the hountejin on wake up stuff was mostly a reminder for the match up.

Yeah, mashing on wake up is bad, but sometimes you just gotta diceroll (well, not in this match up ).

Sometimes you do have to try to mash something out... I mean its BB, but if you keep getting hit it is better to just sit and let him try his tricks.

Yeah, I should probably block more, or, well, I should definitely look into "abusing" barrier a bit more.

And while I can agree his mix up midscreen is pretty weak (his TRM game is really strong though, sure everyone can do it but Hakumen's is above average imho), I don't see how his corner oki isn't very strong (especially against Hazama because of his hurtbox).

Fuzzy guards with jB and hop mix ups/throws are very strong and very (very) rewarding if they land.

Haku-mens corner mix-up is still shat on by barrier. That and if he tries hopping, Hazama has all the anti-airs he needs to beat out his jump ins.

About miss timing 2C, that's not completely true.

After testing it a bit more, 2C wins 99% of the time, but try putting yourself in the corner and having Hakumen do a very low IAD and jB asap (he can cancel his IAD pretty early).

That's pretty hard to react to (unless you just throw 2C out there) and will beat 2C AA (but will lose to 5A AA).

Look up the latest Mitsurugi vs PRFArmy match and you'll notice this "setup" and Mitsurugi being counter hit out of 2C's startup.

2C wins 100%, if it fails it is just a miss timing. If he IADs and you don't react fast enough, its better just to block and take the incoming mix-up. 2C is very hard to use correctly because it has such a large start-up so you'll have to gauge it yourself if you have the frames to throw it out. Remember, 8 frames till the air invincibility kicks in and its always in your favor if it trades.

Also using 5A as a pressure tool is good, but it's kinda iffy against Hakumen at times, it's nothing like when used against Tager.

To understand what I mean, in training mode record the dummy doing dash x2 5AAA against Hakumen set as crouching/block everything and watch how the training dummy blocks, then play it back and try to block it yourself;

training mode tricks~

Honestly I don't use 5a too much, I throw it out every now and then but I seriously just do short mix-ups into command grab/grab until Haku-men stops getting counter happy. Then I feel I'm comfortable pressing more buttons. Its just 5a is another mix-up tool that makes his pressure stronger as opposed to someone it doesn't work on.

I admit I was pretty salty when I made my previous post, so it may have come off way too whiny

I still hate the stupid reward he gets off any hit/6D and I find that this alone can skew the match up in his favour though.

Once Hazama gets in he needs to make it count and kill him with, like, two corner mix up, otherwise Hakumen's comeback potential is too strong.

Well, that is the thing. Haku-men gets good damage off of most hits, but if you think about it, he doesn't really have a good way of opening you up.. 6b warrants no damage and tsubaki is relatively easy to react to. I will admit, his TRM mix-up is good and he gets a ton of damage off it, but he is so free to jump outs it almost doesn't matter. If anything, take into account that he will be doing a ton of TRM mix-ups before the match starts and etch it into your brain not to flinch. Then maybe you'll get better at teching said stupid shit. lol However, Hazamas comeback potential is just as strong as Haku-mens and can get a minimum of 4k off any hit. Any hit. 2a/5a/6a = 4k Midscreen 5k corner. 5b/2b/3c = 5k midscreen 6k corner. 5c/2c 6k midscreen 7k corner. Grabs, around 4k - 5k command grab 4k corner. All those damages are increased as well if you decide to throw in mizzuchi. These are rough estimates of the total damage but you get the point. Hazamas run back is just as good as Haku-mens, which is why I don't think its that bad for him. Especially since Haku-men is also subject to a larger variety of mix-ups from Hazama as well than other characters. He's a dumb character, bottom line; however, you have to realize, so is Hazama. lol

Sey, honestly bro, just really try to block his shit. I'm pretty free to TRM myself but I still don't have too much trouble with Haku-men because thats the only thing that hits me. lol Overall it can make you a stronger player and with most match-ups you really need to know how to block with Hazama. Houtenjin and 214D~B are NOT legit reversals. If you think about it, if you mash houtenjin and then get blown up for it... you don't have your runback anymore. Houtenjin is your runback. Meter is precious and treat it like your baby. Besides, its pretty easy to see when a Hazama is gonna mash it most of the time. Also, 214D~B has 13 frames of start up... those first 6 frames are him getting into stance which have absolutely no invincibility. You can't fall on these as a crutch, just try to block. I hope this helps in your mission to body whatever haku-men is causing you salt. lol

[mAc Chaos]

Hazama always had a good chance against Hakumen, so I don't know how much changed from Extend from the last games to warrant a dramatic change. Seems like the matchup would be mostly the same.

[hipikachu]

Much like the Ragna and Valky matchup, this plays exactly like CS2 aside from the fact Hakumen gets a lot more reward compared to before, with less magatama cost, and has a much more rapid meter gain. And again like the previous aforementioned matchups, Rising Fang is your best friend here. Again. This time though, do note that Haku has some extra albeit risky tools to get in.

<1> For jump-ins, any situation where 2C works, 214D~B probably works better. (EDIT: 2C may be a bit more reaction friendly against mid-blockstring j.5Bs, both 2C and Rising Fang have a 13 frame startup, but human error can give the latter move a slower startup: note 2C will trade when executed poorly, while Rising Fang will leave you CH'd in Serpent's Benediction should you fail to react quickly enough, which is not good at all. Occasionally a dashing 2C may catch the opponent off guard, but that's more of a gimmick than anything reliable. Besides, Rising Fang fares a lot better against 3C and Hotaru than 2C does.)

<2> Stupid Hakumen fly-ins can easily be picked out using 6D and 4D, and raw Hungry Coils (not recommended) if you're feeling ballsy and need something quick and unpredictable to end a match.

<3> A smart Haku will either place a well-spaced j.2C or well-timed j.5D to ruin your Rising Fang party.

<4> Air-to-air isn't really recommended here unless you're an expert with whiffed chain momentum, or if you're backdashing j.5B. His j.2C can score you in the air as well as the ground, so beware.

<5> Hazama is the most Fumajin prone character in the game, Rachel and Lambda often end up with Fumajins, but they don't get sucked in like bad plumbing the way Haz does. Remember that yuki will trigger via chain attack, so zoning a half meter Hakumen is a bad idea.

You don't know how many times I imagined:

Hakumen: "FUMAJIN! OMG JUMP INTO IT JUMP INTO IT JUMP INTO IT!!"

Hazama: "OKAY!! *jump* *boom*"

Hakumen & Hazama: "YAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!"

<6> However, chaining in whiffed chains (and predictable 214D~A's) will get your ass 6A'd unless you play around with your stocks. Chaining in only on hitconfirm is safe, but also scrubby like hell when abused, not to mention easy to catch on and react to. I personally like to use the B followup regardless of hitconfirm, and cancel half-way through into a j.4D or j.6D to regain stock and bait whiffed anti-air for a CH hitconfirm. j.2C can be used to alter your chain-in momentum, and is highly recomended over the more predictable j.5B. All zanshin moves have a backwards guardpoint, so crossups will only work when delayed properly.

<7> Once you've gotten in, there's really no reason to make yourself vulnerable by chucking chains. Haku's may have strong wake-up options, including that blasted TK Hotaru, but Hazama wants his Susano'o unit back. Now.

<8> Throw out Bloody Fangs every once in a while and keep him honest, expecially when he has 4 magas, its your favorite tool in this matchup unless he 5A mashes/TK Hotaru. Wakeup yukikaze is a near guarantee if you locked him into good pressure, so Bloody Fangs will fuel your heat and his rage here.

<9> Elbow drops (6A) and troll kicks (6B) can be used to screw around with his zanshin timing, but not really worth relying on unless you've got 50 heat. Do note that CH 6B has some pretty sweet reward and that 6A actually combos on Hakumen...

...then you get zanshin'd and are now under pressure :

<10> Hakus scariest tool here is 3C, which easily beats mash-outs. It beats yours at the start of a match, and is quick as hell, and easily scores him a free CH combo without meter; use 5A, 2A, and 5B to beat it to the punch at point blank.

<11> 6B is scary overhead, but not very rewarding and slightly unsafe on block. After a successful block, go for a backthrow in the corner, or micro-dash 5A for a quick combo.

<12> TK Hotaru is his reversal of choice, will beat out raw hotenjin, and is safe on block. It should whiff on crouch though, so don't mash out of the corner unless you love hearing "FATAL!:gonk:"

Guess thats it for now, it's getting late over here and I have stuff to do tommorow.