[CSE] μ12: War Room - Tactics of Terror v1000

[C0R]

RELEVANT GAMEPLAY RELATED DISCUSSION ONLY PLEASE.

[pochp]

How stable is yata > 2d 214d > j.2c?

pls don't say it's tager specific...

This thread is a great idea.

[C0R]

It almost always works if there's a stein beyond the frame of the screen near the middle.

[xntrikcat]

Nice thread.

My Q:

I know the high loop is all the rage these days, but I don't really like it. I tend to drop it more often and seems more character/height specific. Can I just stick w/ the ol' med/low loops, or is there a significant advantage I'm not seeing from setting up the stein that high up?

[pochp]

Personally I only use the high loop when going for the kill off the starters I know for sure it will work. I really like having the stein on the opponent to use 214d to extend pressure, break primers, etc. I think it does add something like 300 damage to the overhead combo, for example, so it's worth knowing. It most likely builds more meter as well, which is good when you need it to finish with a super.

[C0R]

Personally I only use the high loop when going for the kill off the starters I know for sure it will work. I really like having the stein on the opponent to use 214d to extend pressure, break primers, etc. I think it does add something like 300 damage to the overhead combo, for example, so it's worth knowing. It most likely builds more meter as well, which is good when you need it to finish with a super.

The meter gain is the main reason I put it to use, it allows for super enders when it wouldn't normaly be possible.

[Zeromus_X]

This is gonna sound pretty derp, but what exactly are the high/mid/low loops? I'm guessing they're just the different routes for corner combos? I don't think I was active when this terminology started being used.

[xntrikcat]

High loop is the one that starts w/ a 5c pickup: 5c 2c j.c j.2c j.d

Which can be followed by the middle loop: 2b 5c 2c j]d[ j.2c

Low loop is the one w/ the 6a: 2b 6a j.c j.2c

I'm new to the terminology too, but c0r started calling them as such.

[C0R]

This is gonna sound pretty derp, but what exactly are the high/mid/low loops? I'm guessing they're just the different routes for corner combos? I don't think I was active when this terminology started being used.

I really want them to start being a notation standard. I mean all of her combos use one of those three routes, so.... yeah it saves a ton of time.

High loop is always performed after corner 6b or after far wallbound sod.

[Zeromus_X]

Alright, I figured as such but wanted to make sure.

Messing around in training, and didn't see this combo in the combo thread, here's a midscreen Gold Burst combo for if you ever aren't close enough to reach/cross under into the corner:

Gold Burst > walk a bit 2C > 5C > 6C > 214D (whiff) > dash 6A > :6B > dash 6A > j2C > dash 2C (otg) > 5C > 6C (3044 dmg, 32 mg) ...> 214D (whiff) > dash 6A > 632146C (4320 dmg, 35 mg, need 15 meter)

Anyone want to improve it?

Also, while I'm here, 2C otg works on every character midscreen right? I find myself whiffing it on some characters like Noel and Bang, but maybe I'm just dashing too late.

[C0R]

For 2c otg, there's a spacing where it works on everyone, but you do need dashing momentum sometimes.

Goldburst, you will ALWAYS go to the corner, because if you're further then half screen you cross under, and it moves you more then half screen.

Gold Burst > (Crossunder) 5c > 2c > 6c > 214d(whiff) > Dash 6a > :6b > Dash 5c > 2c > SoD > More stuff, I have to get home before I can remember all of it.

[argilium]

In the combo,

(Corner) 2b > 5c > 2c > SoD > 66~6a > :6b > corner loops

does the second hit of 6B whiff Bang and Carl or i should change the timing for these characters? i seem to miss this combo only to them when it works for most of the other characters with the same timing that i use.. if the combo do whiff always or if i need another timing, who are the other characters that i should be wary of when using this combo?

also, the Middle loop seems to not work (laser hit > j.2C whiffs) on certain small characters, even the likes of Noel? who are all these characters? am i just doing it wrong or do i just have to do the Low loop instead..

man, these loop terminologies are hype!

[C0R]

In the combo,

(Corner) 2b > 5c > 2c > SoD > 66~6a > :6b > corner loops

does the second hit of 6B whiff Bang and Carl or i should change the timing for these characters? i seem to miss this combo only to them when it works for most of the other characters with the same timing that i use.. if the combo do whiff always or if i need another timing, who are the other characters that i should be wary of when using this combo?

also, the Middle loop seems to not work (laser hit > j.2C whiffs) on certain small characters, even the likes of Noel? who are all these characters? am i just doing it wrong or do i just have to do the Low loop instead..

man, these loop terminologies are hype!

Performing 6b as late as possible after 6a will guarantee both hits on every character, this delay is usually notated with :6b

Mid loop IS unstable on Noel/Makoto/Rachel/Platinum, low loop works every time. You can do it with a specific timing but it's rather hard.

[Cryingvoid]

High loop is always performed after corner 6b or after far wallbound sod.

But doesn't work with too many hits in the combo than required. When I know I ploughed many Bs and Cs before the said 6B - I use 6a into mid loop route...

[Cryingvoid]

ok, I'm now in the training, trying to figure optimal midscreen 6C (FC) combo with and without meter. Would be glad if anyone's willing to help!

So far I've done this:

[midscreen] 6c (FC) [wait for 6c recovery end] - dash 6a - (optimal jc GB!!!) - 6b - dash 6a - jc - j.2c - dash OTG 2c - 5c - SOD - [corner bounds] - dash 2c - jc - j.c - j.2c - j.6d - 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - j.d - dash 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - [oki/single/double super ender].

*i do no habacans in the beginning to make it easier to confirm on random 6c spacing attempts. It is too inconvenient and risky with habacan input when situation is not clear, as it actually is most of the time you space your opponent.

*major question: off 2c - 5c i failed to connect yata super after high loop - into mid loop. this part: 2c - jc - j.c - j.2c - j.6d - 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - j.d - dash 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - 2c - 5c - yata

that lowly placed j.d stein behaves somehow tricky when yata'ed. Is it me, is it jin, I used for this session, or is it NOT meant to connect normally at all? Anyway, I tried to use j.4d instead of just j.d, and it seemed to connect.

sorry for the mess, please help clarifying, pointing my mistakes and improving, if possible!

PS: too tired of my bnb only mu. Wanna settle stuff in my head once and for all.

[xntrikcat]

Folks, what should I be doing if I know the opponent is gonna backdash on wakeup after the SoD blowback? Do I run up and 5c later? Fish for 6c? or play safe® with 236a?

Edit: I guess it'll depend on the kind of backdash it is. I'm thinking Valk's, but maybe there's a rule of thumb

[C0R]

Folks, what should I be doing if I know the opponent is gonna backdash on wakeup after the SoD blowback? Do I run up and 5c later? Fish for 6c? or play safe® with 236a?

Edit: I guess it'll depend on the kind of backdash it is. I'm thinking Valk's, but maybe there's a rule of thumb

You can punish all airborne backdashs (No µ, Lambda, Arakune) with 5c > 6c, otherwise shoot for 5c > SoD.

ok, I'm now in the training, trying to figure optimal midscreen 6C (FC) combo with and without meter. Would be glad if anyone's willing to help!

So far I've done this:

[midscreen] 6c (FC) [wait for 6c recovery end] - dash 6a - (optimal jc GB!!!) - 6b - dash 6a - jc - j.2c - dash OTG 2c - 5c - SOD - [corner bounds] - dash 2c - jc - j.c - j.2c - j.6d - 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - j.d - dash 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - [oki/single/double super ender].

*i do no habacans in the beginning to make it easier to confirm on random 6c spacing attempts.

First off there should never be a case where you have to confirm 6c FC, as it's a tool you only want to use when you're guaranteed a counterhit.

The optimal combo is 6c FC > 5d > Recover, Dashing 5c > 2c > ]d[ > j.2c > Dashing 2c OTG > 5c > SoD > Dashing (cornerbound) 6b > Highloop > Midloop > Lowloop > Dashing 2c otg > 5c > yata > 2d > 214d > j.2c > 2c > 632146c

*i do no habacans in the beginning to make it easier to confirm on random 6c spacing attempts. It is too inconvenient and risky with habacan input when situation is not clear, as it actually is most of the time you space your opponent.

*major question: off 2c - 5c i failed to connect yata super after high loop - into mid loop. this part: 2c - jc - j.c - j.2c - j.6d - 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - j.d - dash 2b - 5c - 2c - j.2c - 2c - 5c - yata

that lowly placed j.d stein behaves somehow tricky when yata'ed. Is it me, is it jin, I used for this session, or is it NOT meant to connect normally at all? Anyway, I tried to use j.4d instead of just j.d, and it seemed to connect.

sorry for the mess, please help clarifying, pointing my mistakes and improving, if possible!

PS: too tired of my bnb only mu. Wanna settle stuff in my head once and for all.

Do dashing 2c 5c yata after the last j.2c, else it takes too long for the first laser to reach the opponent.

[Cryingvoid]

C0R, thanks a lot for replying. I really want to finalize stuff I do in combos.

I'll try the optimal variant you've provided. Thanks a lot.

About confirming 6C... hmm... you know what I mean? It is not like I'll ever risk whiffing it, but to apply it in your opponent wake from time to time is not a bad think I guess. They often forget about 6C and think you are closing in with some normals for oki, and try to mash something beforehand. Also, zoners have a habit of same stuff. But most times they'll surely block that. That's where I'd really like to have option select. One more time, I'll never consider risk whiffing the 6C. Debate is - OS on block, on hit or on FC.

Finally, your 5D way seems to pretty much provide the OS for the subject.

In our double super combos I find a hard part to do the latter 2c 5c (after yata). Thing is, depending on stein number the opp reaches different heights and it is easy to fail those normals because of wrongly (or not optimally) applied j.2C. It is much more practical to do straight: j.2c - land - omonikane, in my opinion. Is the reward for the last 2c 5c really worth the risk?

C0R, while we are at it, help me with optimal off LOW CH 6A? 5c 6c confirm doesn't send them high enough in this case. Should straight 6a - 6b hitconfirm work well?

Thanks again for your help.

[pochp]

I punish midscreen backdashes with raw 6c, like a man. Sometimes I even get fatal, high risk high reward. Though I also just run up and do a late 2b, catching them airborne, and leading into a combo.

C0R, while we are at it, help me with optimal off LOW CH 6A? 5c 6c confirm doesn't send them high enough in this case. Should straight 6a - 6b hitconfirm work well?

I do 6a 2b (whiff) 2c 5c 6c habacan... If ever by bad luck the 2b hits I go into 2c j.c j.2c dash 2b 5c 6c or something like that. but then again that depends on how low you're thinking.

[C0R]

I do 6a 2b (whiff) 2c 5c 6c habacan... If ever by bad luck the 2b hits I go into 2c j.c j.2c dash 2b 5c 6c or something like that. but then again that depends on how low you're thinking.

^

That's the good stuff.

[Cryingvoid]

Thanks a lot guys. BTW what's the hierarchy of hits in the combo? Do I always want to land C's earlier than B's or A's off the starter? And B's (5B, 6B) are superior to A's? I don't understand those prorate tables too well, sorry about that.

Also, what is the worst hit of those three in terms of combo proration: 6A, j.2C, OTG 2C? One of them seems to affect proration harder than the other two.

[pochp]

all your answers are in here : http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_(Mu_BBCSE)

what you want to look at is P2, basically, the lower it is, the worse it is for your combo. 6a : 91, 2c : 91, j.2c : 88. Therefore j.2c is worse for your combo.

[Cryingvoid]

I've been thinking about an optimal corner fatal combo, and it seems there is one decent variant which I've worked out as a mixture of C0R's CS2 combo and of CSEX's mission 15. Here it is:

(corner) 6C (FC) > 5[D] > SOD > 6 > 5C > 5[D] > ]D[ > 9JC > j.C > j.2C > j.6[D] > land > ]D[ > 66~6B > 5C > ]D[ > 2C > high loop > mid loop > low loop > double super ender. = ~9850.

I don't know if it is possible to improve it further, it seems to be the optimal way, but take a look for yourselves.

Also, I'm stuck with bursts implementation into this combo. I can't get the general mechanics or principal of the burst boosting the dmg output. I get either only 300 - 400 boost or no effect at all. Where are the GB's best added generally? In which part?

[Zeromus_X]

Generally, the earlier you can use the Gold Burst, the more damage/untechable time you'll benefit from it. Usually after 6C FC > 5[D] or 6[D] in all the hype combos. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBGMvdr6nAs

Trying to find the corner one that begins with 6C FC 6[D] Gold Burst...let me dig for a bit

Edit: Here's some more examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY4AQcX7MZM (2 gold burst)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FhcTbAKIBU&feature=related (1 gold burst)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NQT5h9E-lY&feature=related (various)

Seems like the recipe is 6C FC > 5[D] (Gold Burst).....first loop 2C or jC > Gold Burst

Still can't find that 6[D] starter. Maybe it was a CS2 combo?

[Cryingvoid]

Amazing midscreen stuff, Zero! Gotta try that for myself. Though all tend to burst out of normal fatal combos, left alone burst-powered ones, so it's hard to option select in real battle since you'd have to confirm opponent having no bursts left.

About your corner stuff I can't help noticing the unreason of the gold burst there (if you ask me about the two bursts, I'd say they are unreasonable everywhere since such a situation when you'll have both the two GB's and the FC in the corner against burstless opponent is strikingly close to impossible). I say 1 GB seems also unreasonable here, because I managed to squeeze out FC corner ~9900 dmg BURSTLESS (the combo line posted above). I actually DID boost that damage with 1 GB for some ~10500 points, but I didn't find this difference worth bursting, thus mentioning.

So, maybe there is a way to burst more responsibly?

For some reason I found more damage and better proration when not bursting asap off 6c, but after all high prorate moves are linked (6c, sod, 6b). Don't know the way to apply it best yet though. But I'm sure for some reason that there is a way to do about 11k with 1 burst.

PS: it would be actually more applicable to make the GB function as a corner carry pillar when starting further from the center. Since what is really frustrating is dropping FC damage due to few extra inches away from applicable midscreen position...

PS: 6C > 6[D] > SOD... cornerwise also works. What do you mean?