[CSE] Hakumen vs. Tager

[psycofang2]

That would be cool. Friday's probably the earliest I can do, though. You can add me in the meantime.

Best PSN Haku I know is Soul-6-Ookami. He's got his stuff together.

idk man. Luis is good but hes only as good as you let him be.

if you give him too much respect he will tear you apart.

if you disrespect him theres not much he can do.

[mAc Chaos]

That's pretty much true for every Hakumen.

[psycofang2]

and its sad.

he needs a command grab.

hes hakumen, why doesnt he have 1.

[Sophisticat]

^ Tick throw. :P

idk man. Luis is good but hes only as good as you let him be.

if you give him too much respect he will tear you apart.

if you disrespect him theres not much he can do.

So who's the best according to you?

Tbh, I think you and Soul are the best I know on PSN. Just very different styles. You're the wild guy and Soul strikes me as really technical. IRL though, I'd nominate Apology/WallJumpMan outside of Spark.

Then again, I haven't seen/played that many Hakus...

[Wander]

Even though its been more than 6 months since i last played Soul, I think hes probably the best all around haku on PSN. Has a balanced play style and goes for the extra damaging combos.

[toanenadiz]

This is totally off-topic in this thread but I think Din is better than Soul. Of course I play Lambda and Din probably has more Lambda experience than Soul does.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I think the hardest part about this matchup is when he's close. I have a friend who loooves to be grabby with Tager, and I suck at throw escaping. Surprisingly I find some use out of a fully charged 4C.

[psycofang2]

So who's the best according to you?

Tbh, I think you and Soul are the best I know on PSN. Just very different styles. You're the wild guy and Soul strikes me as really technical. IRL though, I'd nominate Apology/WallJumpMan outside of Spark.

Then again, I haven't seen/played that many Hakus...

tbqh no one, each person has their play styles and consequentially creates a weakness in return, Loius is very offensive and mixup orientated but he lacks in the defensive department because of it. im very defense and analytical, once i figure you ad how you play out clearly i can build a wall and interrupt you when i feel theres a big enough gap to but my offensive abilities suffer quite a bit because of this.

There isnt anyone i can say whose really the best some take control by force others take control through patience.

id say spark simply because he earned the title but i havent seen him play extensively.

the only time i can say someone is the best is if they create their own style wilst covering or completely negating their weakness to an expert or masterful degree. they dont always have to win to be good, but they level of understanding of themselves, their limits and their character can show very easily.

This is totally off-topic in this thread but I think Din is better than Soul. Of course I play Lambda and Din probably has more Lambda experience than Soul does.

you are literally the only lambda we fight, since kraz started high school.

I think the hardest part about this matchup is when he's close. I have a friend who loooves to be grabby with Tager, and I suck at throw escaping. Surprisingly I find some use out of a fully charged 4C.

break grabs, keep this freakshow at bay, annoy him with jc and 4C also if they like to jump in the air and mash jC for the extra push to get in hop kishuu under then to get on the other side once they start cornering you. conditioning them to super barrier jump in can also be messed with by 2C>kishuu or jump grabs to ruin the momentum.

[SansProtocol]

I need video evidence. I am increasingly becoming convinced this matchup is not in Haku's favour. Halp.

You really need to play a Tager at a lower skill level than Brice. It'll help get your confidence back more than not.

It's 5.5-4.5 in Haku's favor lol.

You out range Tager, out damage him, and can even fit in a taunt in the process.

Seems more like an argument to why it's 6-4 and not 5.5-4.5 lol. Honestly, I hate .5's in match-up talks. It just seems like if it's that slight of an advantage, it's not worth considering and should be left 5-5. In the same thought, if it's considerable enough to where it will make a difference, 6-4 is more appropriate. And also, the numbers reference out of 10 games, how many should each character win. Since you can't win half a game, it seems illogical to use halves.

The setting you'll most want to know cold is the neutral game. Whoever can gain the upper hand here will to my mind be the one to win the match. But Tager has monster comeback potential, so you can never let it up.

This x 1,000,000.

he needs a command grab.

hes hakumen, why doesnt he have 1.

It's against archetype, he has every tool he needs to perform well, and there would be too much to look out for against him.

This is totally off-topic in this thread but I think Din is better than Soul. Of course I play Lambda and Din probably has more Lambda experience than Soul does.

I really want to play you again if you have the time. Last time, it felt like I was just testing things and showing that I could block and do match-up specific things. I have a tendency to act like I'm in the lab throwing random things out if I don't get to play a certain character often lol. I can play on PSN if that's fine.

[mAc Chaos]

Ctrl pointed out you can go 2-1 on rounds, so maybe that is what the half means.

[SansProtocol]

Ctrl pointed out you can go 2-1 on rounds, so maybe that is what the half means.

Winning a round but not the game itself doesn't matter for two reasons:

1. It doesn't matter in the broad scope of things. If a character is not consistent enough to win a 6th game, then he's losing that one of the set. If there's cause to believe that he would, then it's 6-4. If not, 5-5. If you look at results, it shows games won/lost. No one cares about winning a single round in a game as that will not factor into achieving a win.

2. It's illogical to factor in rounds because you do not start with the same resources in-between rounds. Bursts are not equally given or used in the game except at the start. They have an impact on the match-up and can allow a player to win where normally, they would have lost. On a side note, I believe that the burst mechanic should have some impact on numbers since they are equally given at the beginning of a game but not equally beneficial to each character in a match-up.

I honestly hate halves now. I feel it's just another vehicle to complain about their character when they should just get better and/or learn the match-up.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, if I had to choose between 5 or 6 I would actually settle on 5. Tager and Haku have always had a close matchup, and it was actually the only matchup in Tager's favor in CT. It's 5-5, because it's lopsided in Tager's favor when he is in your face, and in Haku's when he's far away. (Although I feel that Tager has greater advantage when he is up close, than when Haku does when he's far away, since you get way less damage off random pokes and have to succeed in landing them more.)

Kind of like Lambda and Haku. Someone once described it as being 7-3 in favor of whoever is in control at the time, so it washes out to 5-5.

I expect Tager to have a better matchup in CP.

Also for bursts, I remember when your own burst was basically a second burst for Nu since it would knock her full screen again.

[SansProtocol]

Well, if I had to choose between 5 or 6 I would actually settle on 5. Tager and Haku have always had a close matchup, and it was actually the only matchup in Tager's favor in CT. It's 5-5, because it's lopsided in Tager's favor when he is in your face, and in Haku's when he's far away. (Although I feel that Tager has greater advantage when he is up close, than when Haku does when he's far away, since you get way less damage off random pokes and have to succeed in landing them more.)

Kind of like Lambda and Haku. Someone once described it as being 7-3 in favor of whoever is in control at the time, so it washes out to 5-5.

I expect Tager to have a better matchup in CP.

Also for bursts, I remember when your own burst was basically a second burst for Nu since it would knock her full screen again.

Yeah, I am still up in the air about it. I have always thought of it as 6 but could be swayed. There's a lot to consider more but I'll get into that later.

LOL, I remember in a stream once that a Tager player said the mirror was 7-3 depending on who was magnetized XD.

And that's what I think about bursts in this match-up. The mechanic just seems to benefit Haku more than Tager.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Personally I would prefer matchups based on percentages of the win ratios. Your own win ratio is done in percentages why not the matchups. For instance we could say this is 55% in Haku-men's favor. Thus suggesting that 55% of the time Haku-men is at an advantage during this matchup. No rounds, no matches, no anything, just the simple matchup ratio.

You can only get so far with numbers anyway because fighting games are usually so complex that there could be any number of situations that might arise to tip the scales one way or the other.

[Sophisticat]

You really need to play a Tager at a lower skill level than Brice. It'll help get your confidence back more than not.

Only if said Tager can force the matchup. Otherwise it's RTSD all day. Mash 5a all over him into whatever.

But that said, high level is the only real level. :P

Well, if I had to choose between 5 or 6 I would actually settle on 5. Tager and Haku have always had a close matchup, and it was actually the only matchup in Tager's favor in CT. It's 5-5, because it's lopsided in Tager's favor when he is in your face, and in Haku's when he's far away. (Although I feel that Tager has greater advantage when he is up close, than when Haku does when he's far away, since you get way less damage off random pokes and have to succeed in landing them more.)

This is actually part of why I think it's not in Haku's favour. Your zoning has minimal reward for the potential risk you're taking. Tager's risk/reward is skewed in his favour here. His comeback tools are stronger than yours as well. Haku's the risk-taker in this matchup. :\

I still hesitate to qualify this a 4.5-5.5 (sorry, Sans) H:T matchup. Maybe 4.9-5.1 because Tager makes you feel all shitty. :P

[psycofang2]

It's against archetype, he has every tool he needs to perform well, and there would be too much to look out for against him.

your point? give him 1 anyway.

This is actually part of why I think it's not in Haku's favour. Your zoning has minimal reward for the potential risk you're taking. Tager's risk/reward is skewed in his favour here. His comeback tools are stronger than yours as well. Haku's the risk-taker in this matchup. :\

I still hesitate to qualify this a 4.5-5.5 (sorry, Sans) H:T matchup. Maybe 4.9-5.1 because Tager makes you feel all shitty. :P

i dont understand the logic in these numbers.

though in all honesty haku vs tager feels 5-5.

both of their comback potentials are outright absurd. if tager catches you, especially magnetised, you are forced into a shitty guessing game filled with retarded gimmicks and bs which youll most likely lose. alot of tagers combos are very burst safe and give a huge amount of heat for the 2k damage it brings, while still giving him a free stagger and re applying mag to the opponent. with the amount of heat he gains he doesnt have to start the guessing game right after GF he can 5A/6A then go from there.

hakumens comeback factor is crazy as well but this requires getting close to tager and literally walking into the wolves den to even turn the match around in the 1st place, you cant play on hakumens strength to turn the match around you have to go to tager which is playing right into his match up and putting yourself in serious danger.

in this match up hakumens for the most part is the risk taker on both sides.

its 6-4 in a ranged battle, hakumen can just low jc, 4C (maximum range please) poke tager and kishuu under his attempts to get in. but this is still dangerous as hell.

hakumen gets minimal reward off landing a random jc minus the fact that it drags the fight out. sj barrier kills the pushback on jC and the landing recovery means we cant afford to make too many mistakes. because once hes in the matchup goes straight 5/5.

if you are magged and tager is right next to you that shit goes 4-6 haku-tager.

so i feel its 5/5

[Sophisticat]

i dont understand the logic in these numbers.

Pay them no mind, I was just kidding. :P

Agreed on what you're saying, though.

[Spark]

Hakumen vs Tager can be a pretty annoying match up. I would say a good chunk of my matches vs Tager end in time out.

Basically if you play as safe as possible it can be really difficult for Tager to get in on Hakumen.

At neutral things you should always do are countering his 5D, 2D, and 6C(if they do it for some reason like after a blocked 6B). Making sure to do the longest combo possible to run down the mag meter and ending the combo with j.C to push him as far back as possible. Kishuuing/jumping over a spark bolt is ideal, but that's not always possible.

If he ever jumps in with j.D you can always enma it because he has landing recovery as soon as the move starts, so it's free damage. If he j.Cs at you just j.C him back, if it hits him great, if not it still pushes back to where he started.

If he super jumps at you and you're closer to the corner than he is just kishuu under him and switch sides.

If he normal jump barriers at you, you can either j.A > xN > (see if he stops barriering) > j.214B(if blocked jump cancel into a purple throw to force distance between you and him), air throw, or play it safe with j.C.

On the ground 4C is good at it's max distance, although you won't be able to combo into enma from that distance unless it's a CH. Then kishuu (delay) enma works for 2kish.

The only time I feel that it is a good idea to get close to Tager on the ground is if you have at least 3 stars, so you can do instant overhead j.B > j.214C for 4k. A good time to do this is after a 4C or low j.C > 623A > 5A > j.B or 236B. But a lot of the time if you have the life lead it might not be worth the risk.

The only time Hakumen is at real risk at neutral is when he is magnatized, which should only happen if Tager spark bolts you. Once this happens j.Cing isn't always safe since he can pull you in with 623C or 2D under you and hit your landing recovery frames. So if you're magnatized you should only jump if you see him jump first. If he uses 5D/2D just counter like before, j.D can still be 623AAed, otherwise just keep back dashing away from him while waiting for magnatizim to go away. If you some how get cornered while magnatized he still has to get close enough to actually mix you up, which should be pretty difficult cause your pokes are faster and have more range than his.

That should be it for dealing with Tager at neutral. His blockstrings are pretty simple, so I'm not sure what there is to elaborate on.

[mAc Chaos]

What do you do if you get Tager into the corner? Do you go in on him for corner pressure and mixup?

[Spark]

In general it doesn't feel like it's ever worth while to pressure Tager, if I'm not going in for a safe mix up I usually just stay away. Since 2A > 2A the string with the smallest gap(not counting 6A > 6B) in it can still be 360ed on IB, the risk vs reward for me doesn't feel worth it.

If I have Tager in the corner I usually go for safe stuff like j.214B air unblockables. If I'm going for knockdown(if I'm not magnatized) I use the 5C > 3C ender I can't remember if you have to walk back a bit or not, but it leaves you close to the range where only the tip of j.214C hits him if you TK it, so if he MTWs or tries to throw you you're out of range for both.