[GGAC+R] & [GGAC] Baiken - General Discussion

[Star-Demon]

This character doesn't have a general thread, so I'm giving her one!

Go to these things for info and specific discussion:

For Character Basics:

Baiken Guide

Wiki - Baiken

For Combos:

Baiken Guide

Combo Discussion Thread

For Technical stuff:

Baiken Frame Data

For Baiken Videos:

Baiken Media Thread

GGAC Video Thread

Everything else can be discussed here.

Check back to this OP for Updates.

here is a full list of the changes in AC+R for anyone looking for them, including what was changed in the 1.1 arcade patch.

• 5c.S - Startup decreased from 9f to 8f.
  
• 5HS - Startup decreased from 10f to 9f.
  
• 5D - start-up 25F -> 27F Thanks RoBoBOBR !!
  
• 2S - Startup faster ? this is confirmed as false ggac+r mook.
  
• 2HS - Untechable time increased from 14f to 26f. Now has vaccuum effect on air hit as well Thanks RoBoBOBR !!
  
• 2D - prorate 70% -> 80% Thanks RoBoBOBR !!
  
• 6P - New gattling to 6K. Guard Balance- decreased from 8+7 to 4+4. Untechable time for the second hit is now 20f. Patch 1.1 First hit launches opponent a little lower. Second hit counts as lvl2 attack ggac+r mook
  
• 6HS - Guard meter decrease on hit reduced from -15 to -6.
  
• j.P - start-up 7F -> 5F, active 4F -> 8F, recovery 9F -> 10F Thanks RoBoBOBR !!
  
• j.K - Untechable time from a ground hit is now 25F (same as for air hit).
  
• j.HS - The float after a air hit is now closer 空中ヒット時の 浮き が低くなりました。. Untech time increased from 18f to 20f.
  
• j.D - Damage decreased from 50 f to 42 f confirmed as false ggac+r mook. Untechable time decreased from 45 f to 35 f. Combo starter proration 90% ggac+r mook
  
  
  • Yoshijin (new input: 623P) - no longer a guard cancel, now a lvl.3 special move. No invulnerability frames. Improved Hitbox in front. Less float on hit. Recovery time increased from 22f to 25f. Guard meter decrease on hit increased from -7 to -12.
    
  • Tatami Gaeshi (Ground, 236K) - opening hit causes wall bounce. Unsure about effects of closing hit.
    
  • Tatami Gaeshi (Air, j.236K) - causes wall bounce on opening hit, bigger hit box in front.
    
  • FB Sanmai Tatame Gaeshi (236D) - new force break, triple tatami attack. Prorates 90%. 14f Startup and FRC point 20f~22f. -3 Frame advantage upon blocking 3rd Tatami. Wallbounces on hit. Untechable for 32f on normal hit or 100f on counter hit. (holy.....)
    
  • Kabari (41236HS) - ground slides towards Baiken on air hit. Startup of attack decreased from 21f to 20f. Recovery on hit and guard increased by 1f.
    
  • Suzuran (63214K) - longer recovery. Can now be canceled from 9-24 into any guard cancel special without having guarded an attack Thanks RoBoBOBR !
    

  [*]Zankyoukuruma or Zakuro? (412P on guard) - new guard cancel. Does not require FD to block in the air. Untech time 36 Frames. 1st hit has initial prorate 75% 2nd hit has forced prorate 75% Baiken is in CH state 1~11F FRC timing 12~13F Thanks RoBoBOBR !!

  [*]Mawarikomi - total 24F -> 34F, strike invincibility 1-16F -> 1-24F, FRC 13-15F -> 21-23F Thank you RoBoBOBR !!

  [*]Sakura (412S on guard) - invulnerability frames have been removed. Startup decreased from 17f to 10f. Upper body inv has been removed. Active frames reduced from 2f to 1f. Air hit launches the opponent, untechable 40f, and can wallstick (extra 20f untech time).

  [*]Ouren (412HS on guard) - movement speed slightly reduced. Invulnerability frames moved from f1-7 to f14-26. FRC added (frc point f4-6). Now pulls opponent torward you on hit and guard. Landing recovery increased from 10 to 16, so now it is -15 on block instead of -9.

  [*]Baku (412D on guard) - now -3 on block, some followup proration changes unclear which

  let me know if there are errors or updates - kaeru

  EDIT:Thanks for the additions and corrections RoBoBOBR !

Edited January 31, 2014 by kaeru

[Hellmonkey]

Really like the idea. Stickied.

As always, anyone can feel free to post or PM any questions about Baiken or GGAC.

[Star-Demon]

I changed two things today about how I played and it really helped me roll my training partner in some matches.

1. I changed my 5D combo. It's now an attempt at an ID combo, goes like 5D> IDPKSD > FRC dash SD > Falling D

I have a hard time IAD tatami oki after it, but I'll figure something out.

He said he couldn't tech, noticed it was longer, and I do way more damage than my old 5D starter.

2. I'm using FRCs more efficiently. That gives me more meter, which gives me many more opportunities on Sakura, Baku, or even the next project - integrating FRC air tatamis.

Bad news is I am not the best EC Baiken, stickbug tells me that is Vyers. Now I must either must beat Vyers, beat someone who beats Vyers, or learn from Vyers.

Then IMDABES.

[Hellmonkey]

For Baiken's 5D combo, try this: 5D > (hold up) > j.S (right when get get off the ground), > j.S > (let go of up) > j.SD (wait here, and we will stay with them) > j.SD > airdash > j.SD. This last part is similar to her corner dust loop.

You can find find a list of combos in the Baiken Guide, and I recommend learning some of those for your basic combo formulas.

In general, the combo I listed or variations of it are your best choices from a 5D. Other characters can increase their 5D damage with ID, but it's not used that way often with Baiken.

Air tatami FRC is most useful to create a mixup by allowing baiken to quickly airdash with an air move to mix up the opponent when they don't really expect it. Once they learn this, you can mix things up like landing and 2D, tick throwing, landing and youzansen, or much more. I think it was better in previous versions of GG, because now Baiken has better tools with her meter (youzansen mixup (+knockdown), average damage, baku)

Edited May 2, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Tong]

Anyway to make Tatami s.jPD work on Dizzy/lighter characters?

[Hellmonkey]

Yes, from the Baiken Guide

For Dizzy, Bridget, and May, if you cancel 2D into tatami immediately, you can't follow up with sj j.P. If you wait slightly after your 2D, though, and do your tatami just slightly late but so it still launches, you can sj and connect a j.P.

[Tong]

AH, didnt catch that. thanks!

[Star-Demon]

2D prorates badly, though. But hey, 2D has some reach and is a sweep.

For Baiken's 5D combo, try this: 5D > (hold up) > j.S (right when get get off the ground), > j.S > (let go of up) > j.SD (wait here, and we will stay with them) > j.SD > airdash > j.SD. This last part is similar to her corner dust loop.

Cool - I'll try that one.

You can find find a list of combos in the Baiken Guide, and I recommend learning some of those for your basic combo formulas.

Aren't those the ones I've been doing, otherwise? I printed that one out long ago - didn't I post about dome some of them on YT and in thread?

Anything I hit into some airdash j.SD > Tatami Oki...Surprisingly, nearly every hit I can get.

In general, the combo I listed or variations of it are your best choices from a 5D. Other characters can increase their 5D damage with ID, but it's not used that way often with Baiken.

I know 5D is called "American", but I just see it as just another overhead into over 130 damage for 25% meter. For other stuff, I cap out at 170-217ish for 50%, so right now it doesn't really seem that bad an idea to master a 5D combo.

Air tatami FRC is most useful to create a mixup by allowing baiken to quickly airdash with an air move to mix up the opponent when they don't really expect it. Once they learn this, you can mix things up like landing and 2D, tick throwing, landing and youzansen, or much more. I think it was better in previous versions of GG, because now Baiken has better tools with her meter (youzansen mixup (+knockdown), average damage, baku)

This is exactly why I want to master it! I almost got it down. I started pushing buttons really hard to get timing down, so I'm almost there. once I got this I have another powerful tool. After describing what I could do and not do with Sogos during the last TSB stream, I got the impression I have a lot already, but still need a few more things.

like a better mindset and attitude.

I don't know how to training mode that.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Star-Demon

[Star-Demon]

So I took Hellmonkey's advice and youtubed maruken, oppai, and sharon:

http://www.twitch.tv/starsickle/b/317639233

It's like high speed and high execution versions of me losing.

This makes me sad.

[Hellmonkey]

The good news is that even though you might be find a lot of match videos with Baiken losing, she tends to do pretty well in GGAC at any level of play.

[Star-Demon]

The good news is that even though you might be find a lot of match videos with Baiken losing, she tends to do pretty well in GGAC at any level of play.

True - It wasn't BAD, but I saw what was going on and understood why a lot of things were happening and even took time to write some stuff down.

[Star-Demon]

I want to work on getting fast and low tatamis - any tips? Best I've come up with is 2369k or 236987k, and it doesn't look like it should.

[Star-Demon]

Baiken :

- Youshijin : new command is 623P not possible as guard cancel anymore but only as a normal special move.

- Return of the "wheel counter" command is 214P while on guard

- 63214K : now possible to do guard cancels during the move

- 236K hits twice, knockdown on second hit

[baiken]

- Got the EX Move with the spinning blade, the throw-like anti-air counter

- Yoshijin (412P) can be done without blockstun

- Tatami Gaeshi (236K) hits twice, knockdowns airborne opponents

- Sakura (412S) can be used as follow-up from Suzuran (63214K), even without Baiken blocking a move

This makes me feel like I'm going to have to re-learn the character. I suppose I'm not alone, but it makes me feel stupid.

[Horokei]

I think u wrong. I don't think her gameplan will change or anything.

Looks like new P counter gives you a knockdown. Hard to tell since there is no recovery in entire video.

Old P counter can lauch and maybe can replace tatami in combos.

[Star-Demon]

I think u wrong. I don't think her gameplan will change or anything.

Looks like new P counter gives you a knockdown. Hard to tell since there is no recovery in entire video.

Old P counter can lauch and maybe can replace tatami in combos.

I don't think the general gameplan will change (same as Litchi's situations version to version). I kinda jumped the gun. I don't think it'll be BAD, but I worry. I worry too much.

[Tong]

Yay, new Tatami combos.

And being able to "guard cancel" without guarding is pretty sick!

[Hellmonkey]

All the information we have about tatami is that ground tatami has a second hit that grounds against an airborne opponent. I imagine this being really nice at catching things like backdashes or iad back near the corner. (previously it was kind of tough to punish without tension and good reflexes)

Using the new suzuran cancel, I'm thinking of okizeme where you mawarikomi into them and FRC to change which side you end up on.

Youshijin might be really nice burst bait move by hitting high with it, there is a lot to be tested. I wonder if you could just launch from something like 2s>youshijin on standing/crouching.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Star-Demon]

What is the farthest extended hitbox for youshijin?

[kaeru]

(...) Using the new suzuran cancel, I'm thinking of okizeme where you mawarikomi into them and FRC to change which side you end up on. (...)

This is a marvelous idea ! I can't wait to see how it pans out. I imagine a really good pressure reset will be to do a blockstring into suzuran-> sakura FRC to keep pressure on strong instead of using Kabari sometimes. And if it works, then can switch up with mawarikomi or just grab.

That anti air guard cancel looks to be almost too good of a deterrent for anyone to attack from the air. I wonder how it will compare to 6P counter hit.

Edit:

What is the farthest extended hitbox for youshijin?

this doesnt have the actual hit box, but it should give you an idea about what you are asking.

taken from dustloop wiki

Also i feel i should mention there is no guarantee that the command version in plus R will be the same. Expect different startup/recovery and maybe even different hitbox.

Edited May 30, 2012 by kaeru

[kaeru]

I want to work on getting fast and low tatamis - any tips? Best I've come up with is 2369k or 236987k, and it doesn't look like it should.

I wanted to share my personal trick for this. The Baiken guide has some extremely good tips that go into great detail on how to do a lowest tatami in an airdash from the ground (if that is what you are going for). The only thing i can add to it is that it helps tremendously if you do 2369 and then purposefully let the stick go back to a 5 neutral position, then tap 6 and K. I notice that if i dont let the stick go back to 5 after 2369 it just doesnt come out right. The reason is a combination of avoiding extra unnecessary inputs that don't belong in the motion as well as creating the necessary delay before hitting 6 and K.

Edited June 1, 2012 by kaeru
sentence structure

[Hellmonkey]

More information has come out about GGACR. Sounds like it will be much more difficult for Baiken to combo now, but we'll have some extra tools to use instead.

Also note that the changes to slashback could radically change how Baiken approaches countering.

[baiken]

Tatami Gaeshi knocks the opponent away

- sounds like we cannot combo with this midscreen like before.

j.D FRC changed

- not sure how they adjusted it.

Suzuran's (63214K) recovery time seems longer

- this must be because she can guard cancel now

214p (wheel counter) is super fast to come out, looks like a guaranteed anti air but not comboable even with RC the guy playing didn't seem to be able to combo.

- they changed youshijin to a command normal to make her less dependent on comboing from counters.

Ground tatami can wallbounce if close enough from the corner and the tatami is done far enough from the opponent so that the 2nd knockdown hit doesn't hit. You can then pick up with far S.

- Sounds like she will still have corner combos with tatami, and aiming for that far tatami was already in her game plan (like going for iad j.D fastfall combos).

On air version it knocks down in a forward and down away unless a wall is close : it wallbounces in that case.

- Sounds like she loses midscreen tatami iad j.SD and instead just gets a knockdown.

I haven't had time to look through the jBBS or any twitter entries or anything, so I'm just going off of the translated info in the GGACR thread. Considering all of the big nerfs to the top character's broken stuff, I'm really excited about Baiken in GGACR.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Tong]

More information has come out about GGACR. Sounds like it will be much more difficult for Baiken to combo now, but we'll have some extra tools to use instead.

Also note that the changes to slashback could radically change how Baiken approaches countering.

[baiken]

Ground tatami can wallbounce if close enough from the corner and the tatami is done far enough from the opponent so that the 2nd knockdown hit doesn't hit. You can then pick up with far S.

- Sounds like she will still have corner combos with tatami, and aiming for that far tatami was already in her game plan (like going for iad j.D fastfall combos).

Well, she's got a big nerf on her combos, mainly because of the "bad" 2nd hit on Tatami. This means distance specific combos, and therefore, harder combos.

No more midscreen -> corner carry combos might severely impact on her rewards off midscreen confirms.

I dont play GG much, but I'd say she got nerfed overall.

[destruction_adv]

Well, she's got a big nerf on her combos, mainly because of the "bad" 2nd hit on Tatami. This means distance specific combos, and therefore, harder combos.

No more midscreen -> corner carry combos might severely impact on her rewards off midscreen confirms.

I dont play GG much, but I'd say she got nerfed overall.

I don't think she was really nerfed, but her "style" changed, and that keeps things fresh. Well, she was nerfed a bit, but it's mostly an image change.

[Star-Demon]

God dammit.

[Hellmonkey]

I'm not sure why anyone would be upset about these changes. They toned down almost all of the tensionless big combo stuff for every character. Any Baiken player that has been combo'd before knows how good this change can be.

In other words, because of Baiken's safety-first playstyle due to relatively weak normals and defense modifier, overall damage nerfs can help her.

I think the new Baiken will be really fun. With changes to slashback, counters could become even more powerful than they already are, especially for meter gain. It wasn't fun dying to a single hit from Slayer and Testament when I played in Japan, I seriously can't wait to play this game.