Nehle Report post Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Let's make a thread to keep track of and discuss Dizzy changes for the upcoming Accent Core Plus R! Now, I fully expect the Dizzy modifications in +R to change, especially after the first loketest, so keep that in mind. Having said that, let's look at the currently known changes: 421D : New FB move, FB version of 421S (3 homing blades) K fish bites 3 times Fish laser causes wall stick Text above tension bar indicates if not possible to summon fish Okay so... FUCKING YES that FB dagger seems AWESOME. It basically is 25% tension to be guaranteed to be left alone, before it was only the threat of an ice-spike frc, but now... Holy shit! Looks like the recovery is short as well. I have already dubbed this the "superhadoken" Yes, a visual aid to show when you can't summon fish. That's a pure improvement, and a needed one at that. The K(?) fish looks weird. I want to see if it looks the same on block or whiff, because it almost seems like it "confirms" into more bites on hit. Not sure if it's good or not, but at least different. Wall stick? Yeah we saw it on the video, but it's really too early to tell anything about it. Is it only on air hit? Will it toss the opponent further now? What's the techable time on the air hit? I'm afraid that some of those questions have an answer I don't want to hear, this feels like a nerf, but it's hard to say. Discuss! Edited June 4, 2012 by Nehle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Dizzy GGXX ACR Frame Data & Change List Change list stuffs from loketests, translation by Shinjin. Frame Data specifics are italicized System Changes Standing Guard Hitbox Dizzy's forward hitbox size increased.Crounching Guard HitboxDizzy's forward hitbox size increased.Jumping Guard HitboxDizzy's forward hitbox size increased.Normal Movesf.SRecovery is now 12F (14F in AC)5HStartup is now 12F (13F in AC)6HRecovery is now 21F (29F in AC)FRC timing: 18-20F (1st hit), 27-29F (2nd hit)FRC added. After the startup of the second hit.5DStartup is now 29F (27F in AC)2K80% initial proration (70% in AC) Note: 2K > 5H is now a gatling option.2DNow is special-cancellable.Can be gattled from 5HS2D has slightly longer range. (3rd loketest addition)Note: Range increase doesn't appear to equate to that of old 2D range, prior to AC. j.2S90% initial prorationSpecial Moves214x Series / Fish SummonsThere is now a text above your tension bar that says ”BIT NG”, showing that you cannot summon a fish.214P / P Fish Summon (Bite)Startup is 60F(25) - AC is 54F(21)Searches for your opponent, and has a large forward movement when the distance from your opponent is large.The movement distance of the second movement has been increased. 214K / K Fish Summon (Bite) [*]Damage is 20x3 [*]Startup is 60F(27) [*]Active for 15F (3F in AC) [*]Forward movement distance decreased. [*]Three times continuous bite added. [*]Damage thus changed from 25 x 2 to 20 x 3. 214 S or 214 H / S or H, Fish Summon (Laser) [*]On air hit: causes wall stick. [*]派生から出した場合の前進距離が短くなりました。 Note: "Will travel less forward if used as a follow-up summon." (results in having a shorter startup time) 214D / D Fish Summon (Bite) [*]Damage is 60 [*]Lv 5 attack (Lv 6 on block) [*]Startup is 72-77F(44) [*]Staggers opponent on hit (max: 45F) [*]New move. [*]When summoned, it first moves backwards, then moves forward to attack with a bite. [*]'Hard Hit' on block. (Lvl 6?) 236D / D Ice Spike [*]Recovery is 53F [*]Frame Adv. is -34F [*]Floats opponent (untechable for 40F, CH for 160F) [*]FRC timing: 31-32F [*]New move. [*]Has a longer range compared to H Ice Spike; hits at around 3/4 of the screen. Note: Other move attributes are similar to that of 236H. j.214x Series / Bubble [*]If time runs out on the bubbles, it pops itself automatically (with a hit and everything) [*]If the bubble gets attacked, it now disappears. [*]Opponent can no longer destroy bubbles by striking at them. (3rd loketest addition) [*]If Dizzy gets hit, the bubble now disappears. Force Breaks j.214D / FB Bubble [*]Active for 199F (159F in AC) [*]Recovery is total 25F (total 22F in AC) [*]If time runs out on the bubbles, it pops itself automatically (with a hit and everything) [*]If Dizzy gets hit, the bubble now disappears. 421D / FB Homing Pike, Spear, Knife, etc. [*]Damage is 30x3 [*]Lv 3 attack [*]Startup is 31F [*]Recovery is total 47F [*]Homes in on opponent's location until active frames [*]1-20F in CH state [*]FRC timing: 15-16F [*]New move. [*]Projectile attack with slight homing capability and can hit 3 times if all the hits connect. Consists of three projectiles (2nd part of 421S move). [*]Can be FRCed (3rd loketest addition) Overdrives Necro Okotta Baai / 632146P [*]Damage is now 40x6 (34x6 in AC) Gamma Ray / 64641236 [*]FRC added after the second beam has been shot. Note: It is listed that the OD can be canceled (FRC), but the info is currently unavailable at this time. News from 3rd loketest (from Shinjin) Dizzy (src: Miyako) - Opponent can no longer destroy bubbles by striking at them. They still disappear if Dizzy is hit. Self-exploding bubble mechanism still there - 2D has slightly longer range. - FB dagger has an FRC. - Apart from that she is like the old loketest. Observations on Dizzy from the 2nd Loketest Stream Stuff that I saw: [*]5H > 2D gatling - stuff > 2D > Ice Spike [*]421D (FB Spear) - Fires 3 projectiles, either in a linear motion towards an opponent (grounded) or relative to opponent's position (aerial). - Seems like it does pretty good guard meter damage. - It looked possible to be able to use this move after a 421S, probably after the spear was active. [*]236D (D Ice Spike) - Longer range than H version, approximate range looks to be about 3/4 of the screen (maybe doubled H Ice Spike range?). - At zoomed-in screen, D Ice Spike would reach all the way to the edge, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. - At zoomed-out fullscreen, D Ice Spike would reach at around 3/4 screen distance, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. - Can be FRCed and looks to have the same FRC timing as H Ice Spike. [*]somewhat point-blank TK Bubble summon into insta-pop is no good - Got punished every time by opponent popping bubble with an attack that also hit Dizzy. Tested against I-No 5P. [*]bait/punish scenarios for CH stuffs with opponent disarming bubble at range via a poke looks somewhat promising. [*]214K (K Fish Summon) - Attack range is shorter, looked like something between the range of 5H to H Ice Spike. [*]Gamma Ray FRC - It seemed to look lenient in timing. [*]Bubble auto-explode stuffs - Saw something like: launch > whatever > opponent lands on explosion - Possible juggle opportunity afterwards if the opponent was launched by the explosion. [*]increased forward guard range stuffs - Range to initiate guard was tested. [*]214D (D Fish Summon) - Appears to be a fish summon that is larger than normal fish summons. - Starts up behind Dizzy and moves forward horizontally for a short distance and does a bite attack then moves back in front of her and disappears (if she doesn't move from her original starting position). - Appears to follow a static range like K Fish Summon. - Causes 'Stagger' on hit, appears to be a short period. - Aerial counter-hit causes the opponent to float, somewhat similar to j.H CH. [*]214S Fish Summon Laser wallstick - In the corner, it was possible to follow-up with an air combo after the wallstick. [*]j.214D (FB Bubble) - Auto-explodes after a set period of time, which is about after 4 seconds on the round timer? ========== 421D looks HYPE. Punishing stuff from range with the 'superhadoken' will be awesome, I would like to see how it fares against various stuff, like Ky's SE and CSE, Venom's SA and balls, as well as other things. Having 25% Tension for this FB will probably make the opponent reluctant to try anything for fear of getting punished from range. K Fish looks interesting. If it does multiple hits on block as well, does it act the same way? 214S causing wallstick? If it's only on S Fish, it might be interesting to explore options to use this move, though I barely use S Fish as is. I have the same questions you have about the move. 'Glitch Fish stuff' with this might be lolz. I probably won't mind S Fish causing wallstick, but if H Fish is affected by this as well, not sure how I'd feel about that. I wonder if P Fish and H Fish have changes... Edited November 19, 2012 by Kurokun Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excelence Report post Posted May 30, 2012 I'm liking the change so far and about S_fish ... dunno, probably wouldn't effect my gameplay much since most of the times i'm using s fish for meat shield and catch double/triple jump to block, getting clean/ch shoot from it is rather rare Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted May 30, 2012 I'm liking the change so far and about S_fish ... dunno, probably wouldn't effect my gameplay much since most of the times i'm using s fish for meat shield and catch double/triple jump to block, getting clean/ch shoot from it is rather rare I agree if it's only S fish it's not a huge deal (though a little annoying ), but if it's also H fish then it could be a lot worse. But it depends a lot on the circumstances required for wall stick and the opponent recovery. Hopefully a lot will be cleared up after the loketest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excelence Report post Posted May 30, 2012 Yeah i'm also curious about the wallstick condition for laser fish, But if laser fish get the wall stick treatment on normal hit ... i'm thinking the new hype of Dizzy having her own jamming loop now with HH_fish/SS_fish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted May 30, 2012 What would you even do after getting a wallstick with 214S? If it's high up on the wall, maybe IAD j.2S > j.H > land > air combo? Or if you let them drop for KD, provided the opponent is unable to tech the wallstick, what would you do for oki since you already used a fish summon and are in the corner? Yeah i'm also curious about the wallstick condition for laser fish, But if laser fish get the wall stick treatment on normal hit ... i'm thinking the new hype of Dizzy having her own jamming loop now with HH_fish/SS_fish Dizzy already has HYPE loops: Bubble Loop and Ice Spike FRC Loop, lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted May 30, 2012 What would you even do after getting a wallstick with 214S? If it's high up on the wall, maybe IAD j.2S > j.H > land > air combo? Or if you let them drop for KD, provided the opponent is unable to tech the wallstick, what would you do for oki since you already used a fish summon and are in the corner? Well, to even get the opportunity you need to airdash pretty much as soon as you can to be able to get a hit in with like j.S > j.H or something, but actually testament didn't tech in the vid so maybe that's nice clue . If it turns out they can't tech, just dash in and summon a dagger or a bubble. Then you get a pretty decent mixup opportunity. If they can tech at some point, and you manage to combo off of it with an airdash, then I think you probably do like IAD j.S/j.2S j.H land, imperial ray for knockdown or just an aircombo for damage if you don't have tension. I wonder if S laser to wallstick to H laser to wallstick would combo.. that would be a hilarious combo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excelence Report post Posted May 30, 2012 I wonder if S laser to wallstick to H laser to wallstick would combo.. that would be a hilarious combo Yeah, i meant that combos, maybe from 2h ch on midscreen close to corner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horokei Report post Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) For some reason I think K fish (and maybe S too) can be FB, since we don't see how it was summoned. upd. forget about that. TG in the video too huge for FB fish. Also I'm curious, can Dizzy delay her 421D? If yes, that wall be crazy. Edited May 30, 2012 by Horokei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted May 30, 2012 Yeah, i meant that combos, maybe from 2h ch on midscreen close to corner Probably have to use some variant of whatever you'd use to combo to H Laser after a CH 2H. Also I'm curious, can Dizzy delay her 421D? If yes, that wall be crazy. Who knows? The version of 421D that is currently featured looks to be quite good: a fast, multi-hit projectile that is a threat from fullscreen. It's like EX Dizzy's 421H, only more HYPE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excelence Report post Posted May 31, 2012 Probably have to use some variant of whatever you'd use to combo to H Laser after a CH 2H. Probably will looks like this, 2h(ch)>fish cancel> filler > wall slam laser > filler > wall slam laser > ice spike ... hopefully knock down Btw : just speculation till we get proper list of change on next Locke test. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted June 2, 2012 Quick loketest update (thanks Shinjin) Mogura [on Dizzy] Dizzy doesn't seem to have many changes. You can't hold and charge the FB-knife. The the untechable time on the K-lazer fish is short, comboing seems difficult. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horokei Report post Posted June 2, 2012 K-laser? Did I miss something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zaeris Report post Posted June 2, 2012 the stuff I would want to see FB air spike 214D will become a standard tool to do easier bubble loops due to longer hit stun coming from 3 hits. BTW its nice coming back to the dizzy forum again and seeing old names Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) K-laser? Did I miss something? I think that was a typo. Anyways, here's some more stuff from jap Dizzy players (again, thanks to Shinjin) Dizzy: Normals, gattlings and frc-timings (2h, 6h) are the same. There was some lag, so it was hard to investigate, but ice spike frc was "hard". 5K-> ice spike did not combo. Could be that it has a slower startup.. Imperial ray was as usual. Necro's Anger was also as usual (maybe more dmg?). New moves: FB-dagger can't be held. But it does a lot of damge! (around 25 x 3 ). Fish: 1-> P-fish. - Bites twice (slower startup) First bite homes in on the opponent (and has a longer range) but has longer startup than AC. Second bite is slower than in AC. 2-> K-fish - Bites three times but doesn't target the opponen. Moves predictably and bites. 3-> Lazer (S and HS) Air hit -> Sends them away. Wall stick. Will investigate if they can be combo'd, seems hard. - Lag was annoying. the stuff I would want to see FB air spike 214D will become a standard tool to do easier bubble loops due to longer hit stun coming from 3 hits. Well, if it can't be held than I think it would be harder/impossible, the reason for bubble loop to work is you have one hit to lift and another to hit them while you summon. I don't think FB will work like that at all (plus it's nicer to have the combo tension free) \o/ Edited June 3, 2012 by Nehle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horokei Report post Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) So, K-fish does not turn around anymore. That's bad. Wonder, can P-fish replace it? I don't really know how Dizzy will use her new FB. How good that tool for 25%? Right now I can only think that Dizzy can win "fireball wars" against Venom or Ky with it. Edited June 3, 2012 by Horokei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rhapsody Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Fish: 1-> P-fish. - Bites twice (slower startup) First bite homes in on the opponent (and has a longer range) but has longer startup than AC. Second bite is slower than in AC. 2-> K-fish - Bites three times but doesn't target the opponen. Moves predictably and bites. That's strange, seems like the new K-Fish homed on the opponent in the PV. Not sure if the PV's build was just different or there was some kind of mistake on the info. If this is true, pretty weird how P-Fish homes and K-Fish doesn't in this game since the roles kind of reversed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted June 3, 2012 I'm not too happy about losing 5k > ice spike. 5k is like one of Dizzy's only valid ground counterpokes, and losing that means you actually have to commmit with gatling to 5h or 2d preemptively instead of just buffering ice spike.. But hey, if FB dagger is that good, then I still think dizzy is coming out ahead. I'm not sure what they mean with "homing in" either. Does this mean P-fish will go after opponents in the air as well? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted June 3, 2012 421D damage stuffs sound nice. P-Fish having the first attack with longer startup and a slower second attack is The longer range on the first attack sounds interesting though. K-Fish moving at a static range compared to P-Fish sounds strange. S and H Lasers only doing wallstick via an aerial hit is good. 5K > Ice Spike, not being able to combo anymore is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zaeris Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Well, if it can't be held than I think it would be harder/impossible, the reason for bubble loop to work is you have one hit to lift and another to hit them while you summon. I don't think FB will work like that at all (plus it's nicer to have the combo tension free) \o/ I do remember that bubble loop as two variant, air pike to iAd/j.hs or just straight up tk bubble after air pike. The later is what I'm referring to, corner hit into fb air pike tk bubble straight jk or fb hitting could work. Anyway it is better than that pink homing bubble >< Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excelence Report post Posted June 4, 2012 I'm not too happy about losing 5k > ice spike. 5k is like one of Dizzy's only valid ground counterpokes, and losing that means you actually have to commmit with gatling to 5h or 2d preemptively instead of just buffering ice spike.. If Ice Spike still connect from 5k ch, i think it's not all that bad ... and about homing fish, on normal AC it actually also homes on mid air opponent with limited range, the increased range on how far it homes probably makes it looks more apparent on #R. @Zaeris : IC, probably that would work and the damage *droll... but is there any info that FB air pike can be special cancelable? i need clarification on that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woki Report post Posted June 5, 2012 Just when I thought "how can they possibly nerf dizzy in the next game?" I guess 5k-236hs opener for easy knockdown was too cheap... :/ I like how k fish got changed to allow easy mixup with it, although I don't like how it drastically decreases guard bar when they get hit by it. Also, I wonder if you can IB and then backdash in between k fish to throw off dizzy when she sets up oki (looks at slayer). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) New change list stuffs, translation by Shinjin. Standing Guard Hitbox Dizzys forward hitbox size increased. Crounching Guard Hitbox Dizzys forward hitbox size increased. Jumping Guard Hitbox Dizzys forward hitbox size increased. 2D Now is special-cancellable. Can be gattled from 5HS 6HS Recovery decreased from 29f to 21f 6HS FRC added. After the startup of the second hit. 2K Proration decreased from 70 % to 80 %. J2S Now has 90 % damage proration Fish Summon (generally) There is now a text above your tension bar that says ”BIT NG”, showing that you cannot summon a fish. Fish Summon P Searches for your opponent, and has a large forward movement when the distance from your opponent is large. The movement distance of the second movement has been increased. Fish Summon K Forward movement distance decreased. Three times continuous bite added. Damage thus changed from 25 x 2 to 20 x 3. Fish Summon S or HS On air hit: causes wall stick. 派生から出した場合の前進距離が短くなりました。 D Fish summon New move. D Ice Spike New move. Bubble If time runs out on the bubbles, it pops itself automatically (with a hit and everything) If the bubble gets attacked, it now disappears. If Dizzy gets hit, the bubble now disappears. FB Bubble Recovery decreased from 30f to 25f. Now is “active” in 199f instead of 159f. Does not disappear if attacked (unlike the normal bubble). If Dizzy gets hit, the bubble now disappears. FB Knife New move. Super Necro Throw Move (Necro ga okotta baai) Damage increased from 34 x 6 to 40 x 6. Gamma Ray FRC added after the second beam has been shot. Edited June 30, 2012 by Kurokun Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nehle Report post Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Haha I was just about to post that! Okay, random thoughts 5H 2d is nice to have back, but in reload 2D reached much farther, so it's not as useful as it was back then... still nice though! 2D special cancel is awesome since I never learned the 2D > 421S properly (and sometimes failed the special cancel inputs...) j2S proration ;_; 6Hs always had an FRC.. did they mean they moved it? Bubble autopop!!!! FB bubble decreased recovery means it's actually an excellent defensive tool. My god, Dizzy is starting to get some really strong tools to keep people away! Having reread te list, the extra active time is actually a pure improvement, since it seems the FB bubble doesn't autopop WAIT WHAT YOU CAN'T POP IT!? Okay so that means the FB-bubble is a purely defensive tool, like a burst that costs 25% tension and activates 4 seconds later.. Still though, real strong if you can plant it when the opponent wants to pressure you.. even if they punish you, the bubble gonna be there to pop on them Gamma Ray FRC olol .. well, it could be a proper IK I suppose with the 200% dmg proration if the opponent is staggered Daaamn, Dizzy's looking FINE! Edited June 28, 2012 by Nehle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurokun Report post Posted June 28, 2012 LOL I just happened to see Shinjin's post at the time, while looking at the untranslated change list though a translator. 2D with normal special cancel and gatling from 5H is HYPE. It's like having #R Dizzy's 2D, sans the range and FRC point. I'm interested in the D version of Ice Spike and the D-Fish Summon. IIRC, I think I metioned auto-detonation bubble stuffs in the wishlist thread, lol. - Opponent attempts to pop bubble > gets countered - Opponent does nothing > manual pop or auto-explode MIND GAMES Necro's Anger having a damage boost is nice. j.2S proration Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
