AC+R: Dizzy Changes

[Horokei]

2D still has more range than 2H.

FB bubble decreased recovery means it's actually an excellent defensive tool. My god, Dizzy is starting to get some really strong tools to keep people away! ..But the increased active time is actually a slight nerf then, to give the opponent time to hit you to get rid of it... But they should still be scared of a trade (hopefully the bubble won't disappear if it's already about to pop, like a scenario where dizzy pops the bubble and then trades with opponents poke) WAIT WHAT YOU CAN'T POP IT!?

I think _you_ can pop FB Bubble, but opponent can't attack and destroy it. Just look at regular bubble changes, then at FB Bubble

[Shinjin]

Oh, sorry, my mistake, I misread Shinjin's post something fierce. Good, then it's still super awesome

/Nehle

[Nehle]

Okay, having reread the changlist a bit

2D > 5H!!? That seems crazy awesome/cool actually. Don't know if it changes a lot for Dizzy, but it's nice nonetheless

FB Ice Spike... I have no idea how it's supposed to be used.. maybe as a move for combos and let the ordinary one be used more for zoning?

FB bubble seems doesn't autopop after all.. that would have been so good. Free leave-me-alone

[excelence]

Reading the change ... almost got heart attack of the excitement ... Damn, she got load of buff, and 6h 2nd hit frc :yaay: ... That thing active frame is forever and heavy as fuck, i think we can get easy mix up/tick grab setup

@ Nehle : I think it's 5H>2D not 2D>5h ... that'll be too crazy imo, not sure about 5H>2D ... but if the 2D didn't get increased hitbox, i believe she'll whiff the 2d on that gattling most of the time

Then Gamma Ray FRC? didn't that moves use 100% tension? ... anyway normal Bubble loop does about 180~200 damage on normal guard bar Pot, yes Gamma ray FRC starter is insta Kill, and i don't care how impractical Gamma Ray Starter in real match *ROTFL

And about 2k reduced proration... is that necessary? i think she already hit hard with 70%, and small info ... And just small info on AC, using 5k instead of 2k as filler mid combo (eg:jh>2k/5k>5h>2h>236h) actually lower the overall damage, i forgot who told me to switch 2k filler to 5k, but 2k is better >_>

[Kurokun]

5H > 2D is nice but range stuffs might be an issue if the 5H hits at max range and the followup 2D misses afterward, unlike in #R.

2D having the normal special cancel is probably the real bonus here.

2K having 80% proration is a bonus to damage since if you follow-up afterwards moves do 80% of their normal damage instead of 70% like how it is now.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Kurokun

[zaeris]

Reading the change ... almost got heart attack of the excitement ... Damn, she got load of buff, and 6h 2nd hit frc :yaay: ... That thing active frame is forever and heavy as fuck, i think we can get easy mix up/tick grab setup

@ Nehle : I think it's 5H>2D not 2D>5h ... that'll be too crazy imo, not sure about 5H>2D ... but if the 2D didn't get increased hitbox, i believe she'll whiff the 2d on that gattling most of the time

Then Gamma Ray FRC? didn't that moves use 100% tension? ... anyway normal Bubble loop does about 180~200 damage on normal guard bar Pot, yes Gamma ray FRC starter is insta Kill, and i don't care how impractical Gamma Ray Starter in real match *ROTFL

And about 2k reduced proration... is that necessary? i think she already hit hard with 70%, and small info ... And just small info on AC, using 5k instead of 2k as filler mid combo (eg:jh>2k/5k>5h>2h>236h) actually lower the overall damage, i forgot who told me to switch 2k filler to 5k, but 2k is better >_>

Well in the past dizzy already has amazing tick grabs but will have to see later on how the changes work.

About Gamma Ray, it requires 100% tension but it consumes 50% of your bar at two phases, well it is still a trololo attack ^^.

Now about 2k decrease proration sounds fair to me, dizzy's combo are not that lengthy or damaging but rather we do a basic bnb abc special to get our knock. Maybe the developer are just lessening the time we need to land hits into oki.

hmmm did anyone read about the bubble nerf where your opponent can now destroy the bubble? I don't mind with all the extra tool we are getting but I do feel sad about losing that pressuring tool in neutral.

[TheGreatReptar]

Dizzy could always just jump-cancel-cancel 2D to faux special cancel it before. Now there's just no needless restrictions on the timing for it.

[Kurokun]

I don't really see the opponent destroying bubbles as that much of a nerf. I see it as a baiting tool like with Fish Summons; the opponent can hit the fish to nullify the attack but do they really want to do that and risk getting countered in the process? Hopefully it trades well in Dizzy's favor, like if you pop it and it explodes and somehow the opponent manages to hit you in the process.

The question I have is that of the D versions of Ice Spike and Fish Summon, especially since they aren't listed as FB moves.

If the D Fish Summon is like the one EX Dizzy has where the Fish summons 3 bubbles, lolz.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Kurokun

[excelence]

@Zaeris : 2nd hit frc of 6h makes hit confirm a lot easier and u can jump cancel 6h on block, with frc we can air tight grab or whatever since probably we're at +20f lol ... and i'm also thinking to deal with Bridget / Robo Ky delayed wake up with it XD

And about the bubble nerf,... the bright side is we can treat the bubble more like fish now, to bait people to jab it for ch

[zaeris]

I don't really see the opponent destroying bubbles as that much of a nerf. I see it as a baiting tool like with Fish Summons; the opponent can hit the fish to nullify the attack but do they really want to do that and risk getting countered in the process? Hopefully it trades well in Dizzy's favor, like if you pop it and it explodes and somehow the opponent manages to hit you in the process.

The question I have is that of the D versions of Ice Spike and Fish Summon, especially since they aren't listed as FB moves.

If the D Fish Summon is like the one EX Dizzy has where the Fish summons 3 bubbles, lolz.

Actually I'm treating bubble nerf the same as testament net, from what the description says it is more to act like that, meaning it doesn't have a body that absorb hit. In most case it will be like spear and other projectile that disappear on hit, meaning it will always trade in their favour regardless even if it activates as long as they land a hit, the activation will cancel even if the attack is active.

A fish is stronger because it has health and a body that does absorb one hit.

Anyway, I can see them hitting you without worrying about the bubble if it works that way (not absorbing hits).

Beside that standing P and jump P are both great option to get rid of bubble, now imagine the slayer match up, his buttons are way faster than yours ^^, I like bubble because it move into the opponent territory without issue, since they have no choice but to hit dizzy instead or play defensively. Now it can be rid off by the opponent making it less of a pressure tool at neutral, in my opinion anyway.

I still like bubble IAD back j.s but I feel that retreat method will be less strong if the opponent has better mobility. On a second thought, lets just wait and see later. although I'm pessimistic, the auto detonate seems to be aim at bubble loop timing is my guess. I guess I am somewhat excited to see if she has new technology later on. My friend always tells me dizzy has no combo and I say she does it's abc special lol, sometimes something fancy like ice spike frc ^^, hopefully there will a more cooler and practical bnb for her.

@Zaeris : 2nd hit frc of 6h makes hit confirm a lot easier and u can jump cancel 6h on block, with frc we can air tight grab or whatever since probably we're at +20f lol ... and i'm also thinking to deal with Bridget / Robo Ky delayed wake up with it XD

And about the bubble nerf,... the bright side is we can treat the bubble more like fish now, to bait people to jab it for ch

About 6hs frc point, might be move because of lag lol, but I was thinking of a new possible combo without staggering, like for example IAD j.2s >j.hs. or on air hit into IAD j.hs land 2s > spear (421s). Well I do see what you mean, it does sound like a fun gimmick although higher + move are harder to time throw, while it is easier to go into high, low or frame traps mix up. Similarly 2hs frc has massive +ve frame but that also makes it harder to set up tick throws.

Edited June 29, 2012 by zaeris

[Nehle]

I think the bubble will just disappear if hit, but like testaments web it will probably "eat" an active frame. And in that case, it can be useful in certain situations, like eating the only active frame of Baiken's sakura. Apart from that though, it's a straight up nerf (I guess to counter the FB bubble buff?)

Seems Shinjin has updated the translation for 2D, it now says

"2D

Now is specialcancellable.

Can be gattled to 5HS"

So yeah.. 2d > 5h craziness

[zaeris]

I think the bubble will just disappear if hit, but like testaments web it will probably "eat" an active frame. And in that case, it can be useful in certain situations, like eating the only active frame of Baiken's sakura. Apart from that though, it's a straight up nerf (I guess to counter the FB bubble buff?)

Seems Shinjin has updated the translation for 2D, it now says

"2D

Now is specialcancellable.

Can be gattled to 5HS"

So yeah.. 2d > 5h craziness

I'm just wondering if its still jump cancelable. if it goes back to special cancelable only I rather it go back to reload and keep that range ^^. 2d> 5hs sounds like we have more gimmicks besides 2hs ice spike to troll with.

hmm is my theory wrong on it absorbing active frames, but if the opponent has more than 1 active frames is it possible to hit both dizzy and the bubble together with the one hit? What makes testament nets better is it detonation based on contact while dizzy still needs to commit to an attack while testament could just block and let the unsuspecting opponent come near it.

Edited June 29, 2012 by zaeris

[excelence]

@Nehle: Ic, sorry for that, i didn't check the main board 1st orz ... but 2d>5h seriously? if that's combos on hit ... she'll do stupid damage on her abc combos + 2k proration buff...

@Zaeris : and on #Reload, 2d isn't jump cancel-able? and about your first post of "Dizzy has no combos" ... laughed hard, Dizzy combos is fun

[Nehle]

They haven't said anything about dizzy losing jc on her 2d, so I think they just added special cancel to avoid the hassle of jump cancel cancel, same as slayer 5k, it also gained special cancel for that reason.

Me, Caer and Shinjin discussed 2d > 5h and decided that, IF it can be delayed, like 2d special cancels can now, it's probably meant as a nice abare bait in blockstrings, and much nicer than delayed ice spike. I don't even know if that would combo properly on hit, but I guess it's a nice that a little extra damage can be squeezed out of the combo (but possible you'll lose the knockdown )

zaeris: Yeah, if the move has more than one active frame, then the next active hits dizzy. My point is that in the situation where baiken is cornered, planting a bubble effectively locks her sakura away, but for most other situations, it's a straight up nerf.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Nehle

[excelence]

Yes abare bait the 1st thing crossed in my mind, it's much safer than committing Ice Spike.

Loosing knock down is bad, but there's also possibility you can reset them with air grab when they tech if we didn't do ice spike finisher.

[Kurokun]

2D > 5H sounds strange though the theory blockstring bit sounds interesting.

I remain somewhat optimistic in regard to bubble stuffs.

[Nehle]

Yeah, even now most of the times where you plant a bubble the opponent wouldn't have a great chance to strike at it. They're just slightly more situational now (but FB bubble is buffed so it's okay)

[Shinjin]

To clarify: 5H can be gattled to 2D. Not the other way around. I was rushing through those translation a bit too much ^^; srrz

[Kurokun]

TK K-Bubble situations probably get hit the hardest by bubble nerf stuffs because the opponent could just use the opportunity to attack Dizzy directly with an attack that has enough range to pierce through the bubble and hit her in the process.

Use other summons to protect bubble for delay/auto explode? lol.

Edit:

Shinjin, can you check the stuff about the listing of FB Ice Spike and FB Fish Summon cause looking at the page of the untranslated change list for Dizzy, it doesn't seem to list either thing as part of her FB moves besides FB Bubble and FB Spear. I think it's just D versions for Ice Spike and Fish Summon.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Kurokun

[zaeris]

Yeah, even now most of the times where you plant a bubble the opponent wouldn't have a great chance to strike at it. They're just slightly more situational now (but FB bubble is buffed so it's okay)

it is still an FB bubble that never or rarely so play at competitive level and with the abundent of new FB there might be better option. althogh it did make for some nice combo video that I remember xD.

[Nehle]

To clarify: 5H can be gattled to 2D. Not the other way around. I was rushing through those translation a bit too much ^^; srrz

Ahh, righto, then it's back to normal again. 2d > 5h would have been a lot more fun though...

Anyways, yeah, it's like old reload gatling except 2d doesn't have as long reach. Still, an extra gatling is better than nothing, especially considering how better than 2h 2d is

EDIT:

it is still an FB bubble that never or rarely so play at competitive level and with the abundent of new FB there might be better option. althogh it did make for some nice combo video that I remember xD.

Well, I think with the nerfs ordinary bubbles get and then buff FB bubble gets we're gonna see it a lot more. A lot of the changes in +R are for the purpose of making the moves that cost tension more useful.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Nehle

[Nehle]

TK K-Bubble situations probably get hit the hardest by bubble nerf stuffs because the opponent could just use the opportunity to attack Dizzy directly with an attack that has enough range to pierce through the bubble and hit her in the process.

Use other summons to protect bubble for delay/auto explode? lol.

Well, in most of the situations where an opponent could hit you during summon, they could still do so in AC and get a punish even though the bubble didn't disappear. I think this is mostly gonna affect those bubble that you placed and got away from, but could still potentially return to and start an offense. They'd be easy pickings for the opponent now

Most of the times you plant a TK bubble you can pop it _really fast_ if you notice the opponent is closing in, so that's not a big issue in my mind. It's only annoying against characters with long pokes without hurtbox on them (Ky, Testament, I-No, Faust), against those kind of characters you can't TK an ordinary bubble in the neutral game

But also, if the opponent is throwing out an attack just to disarm a bubble, that means more time for you to get another summon out, and you can protect it with ice spike if you manage to land.. Sounds like fun mind games ahead \ o /

[Kurokun]

But also, if the opponent is throwing out an attack just to disarm a bubble, that means more time for you to get another summon out, and you can protect it with ice spike if you manage to land.. Sounds like fun mind games ahead \ o /

This is the sort of situation that I thought of when I first read about the bubble changes.

- opponent attempts to disarm bubble > possible opportunity for CH scenario, like with Ice Spike, at range

- opponent doesn't disarm bubble > auto bubble explosion + whatever else (possible summon support?)

I wonder how auto-explode bubble stuffs would fare as part of blockstring stuffs, provided you have summon cover as support.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Kurokun

[zaeris]

This is the sort of situation that I thought of when I first read about the bubble changes.

- opponent attempts to disarm bubble > possible opportunity for CH scenario, like with Ice Spike, at range

- opponent doesn't disarm bubble > auto bubble explosion + whatever else (possible summon support?)

I wonder how auto-explode bubble stuffs would fare as part of blockstring stuffs, provided you have summon cover as support.

that depends how long for it to auto burst... for example throw > 214 Hs. k fish tk bubble-> iad foword> Iad back j.2s jhs> to bring opponent to bubble> land and do ambigous cross over jump> auto detonate fun cross over.

rather the old style throw> hs lazer fish IAD just above head s/k bubble for ambigous cross over although its not that ambigous.

something like that be fun to play with, using the right set ups.

[Shinjin]

Shinjin, can you check the stuff about the listing of FB Ice Spike and FB Fish Summon cause looking at the page of the untranslated change list for Dizzy, it doesn't seem to list either thing as part of her FB moves besides FB Bubble and FB Spear. I think it's just D versions for Ice Spike and Fish Summon.

It is only D-versions for the fish and ice spike (new versions). I guess auto-pilot translation assumed new "D"-versions of them were to be translated to FB-versions but it doesn't say that explicitly.