[GGACR] Jam ACR Changes and Discussion Thread

[zdravkelja]

Can you still do card kicks after 236S>K? Or just after 236S>D

[Mulligan]

You can still do that too.

Guess I can't just stick 236S>K out for people to run into anymore without actually hit confirming lol.

[Amadeous]

Went ahead and updated the first post with all the final changes, hopefully that's correct, but I don't know if we ever got a final change log. WOULD BE REALLY COOL, ARCSYS, JUST SAYING. Lemme know if I missed anything or something's wrong, I'm sure there's a few things at least.

[president]

5H 6H 214K 5P 2H 6H~H dash 5K 2H 6HH. That's a normal Gekirin. My body can't hold all this special cancelable 6H. I also like how Jam turns throws into combos and knockdowns without the need for FRC anymore.

Lemme know if I missed anything or something's wrong, I'm sure there's a few things at least.

There seems to be a change or two with her carded 623 now. It either launches higher or recovers faster. Fast enough to land, dash up and combo after it.

Edited October 9, 2012 by president

[St1ckBuG]

The last hit knocks them upward and I think it has increased un-techable time.

[Doren2k]

Get charge cards and then mash em out :D. Can't wait to play new Jam

[Amadeous]

Hahahaha I was right, 2D 236D works. It's probably character specific, but I imagine it's along the same lines of CH 2D 236K working in AC.

[president]

I've been seeing that a lot. 2D into 236D I mean. It doesn't seem character specific, since 236D is about fast enough to hit everyone at their peak of 2D launch height.

[Amadeous]

I was just running off of CH 2D 236K/CH 2D TK 236K in GGAC. If it's not character specific even better! I think this means f.S 236D will also be possible, so you don't have to TK the Ryujin after the f.S

[Amadeous]

A Heads-Up, Kurushii got us the mook for GGAC+R and has already scanned the Jam frame data, keep an eye on the Jam GGAC+R Wiki page tonight as I'll be working on updating that with her latest frame data.

Some special notes:

6H is now +3, down from +5.

5D is now 26f startup, up from 24f startup.

Charged 623K is now 90f untechable time, up from 60f untechable time.

Other than that though, as far as I've seen she hasn't changed too awful much, if at all in the frames.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Amadeous

[Mulligan]

Gonna get grabbed on 6H IB now for free. Guess that's why we can flip out of it.

[Amadeous]

K, I'll just do what Circuitous in the Potemkin forums and post the full list of changes I've noticed:

5K

Forced Proration 80% was 90%

6H

Level 4 Attack was Level 5

+3 on block was +5

1-18 lower body (can be hit on the back knee) invincibility was 1-23

Inflicts 18 frames of blockstun was 20 frames of blockstun

There are some more notes here, but I can't translate them.

6HH

Deals 53 damage was 58

There are some more notes here, but I can't translate them.

3H

30x2 Damage

Level 5 Attack

Can be blocked "Any", only be canceled with an RC.

5f Startup, 2(2)4f Active, 15+8f Landing Recovery, -8 on block

Force prorate 90%

There are some more notes here, but I can't translate them.

5D

26f startup was 24f

DAA

16f recovery was 12

-8 on block was -4

2H

22f untechable time was 25f

Breath of Asanagi (22K/S/H)

Total animation/when Jam gets a charge: 53f Was 57f

Ryujin (Charged) (236D)

Forced Proration 80%

Untechable for 70f was 80f

Gekirin (Charged) (214D)

Active frames are 3,4,7 was 3,4,6

Kenroukaku (Charged) (623D)

Damage changed to 15x6, 24 was 15x7

Startup frames changed to 3f was 5f

Active frames are 2x5, 3, 13f 2x6, 11f

Forced Proration 80%

Untechable for 90f was 60f

Mawarikomi(236SP)

1-4 Strike Invulnerable

Ashiharai (236SK)

Max stagger time: 25f was 35f

EX Breath of Asanagi (22D)

Total animation: 50f Was 64f

Jam gets one of every charge on frame 5? Assuming that's what it means.

EX Hyappo Shinshou (236SD)

3-15 Strike Invulnerable was 3-13

There are a lot more notes than that, but I can't translate them.

Renhoukyaku (632146H)

9f recovery was 17f

+1 on block was -7

There are some other notes here, but I can't translate them

Tousai Hyakuretsuken (64641236P+K)

Startup changed to 5+2 after flash was 7+29

Dunno if it still costs 100% Tension.

Also, big note, the frame data we got doesn't list Tension Gain or Guard Bar +/-, so we don't know the exact changes for those. Hopefully St1ckBuG or someone else can come through and fill in the notes translations.

[president]

I'm a Jam newfag. Is her new old 3H actually good for anything? I haven't seen it used at all so far.

[Amadeous]

Pretty sure it can be used to beat out some attacks like Ky's 2S or Robo-Ky's 2K for a nice CH, but I dunno how to combo from it and if it's anything like it was in #R if you use it wrong you're going to get hurt for it (even if you hit them). But that's very minor #R experience from me, I dunno how useful it really is.

Though since 6H is still lower body invul I don't really see why she needs the 3H, they both cover pretty similar situations.

[Star-Demon]

3H = old hopspin? Is she off the ground during that? invul to low?

[Amadeous]

Yeah, that's it. That's how it goes over stuff like what I listed. It's just, Jam's new 6H (the palm) is low invul on the front leg and is throw invul, plus has a huge hitbox and leads into huge damage on CH...so I don't know why she needed her old 6H.

[Amadeous]

Okay, got some new notes for 3H, here they are:

30x2 Damage

Level 5 Attack

Can be blocked "Any", only be canceled with an RC.

5f Startup, 2(2)4f Active, 15+8f Landing Recovery, -8 on block

Initial prorate 90%

Crouching state during Landing Recovery

2nd hit can be cancelled into Charged Kicks

That second note is really important. Have a card stocked and catch them with a 3H to punish a low hitting move, then go to the wall for huge damage it sounds like. Sound much more useful this way...

[Amadeous]

12/27/12 Loketest notes released: http://www.guiltygearx.com/ggxxacpr/location/

Specifically, Jam's:

↘ ＋ HS 空振り時に強化技でキャンセル可能だったのを、不可能にしました。

キャンセル受付時間を伸ばしました。

強化劔楼閣 空中ガードを可能にしました。

朝凪の呼吸・極 強化されるタイミングを遅くしました。

If someone could translate, that'd be cool. Running it through google translate and guessing what it means:

3H can't be canceled into charged kicks any more but can cancel into something else now? Something about the timing changing to cancel?

Charged DP can be blocked in the air without meter now I think?

Breath of Asanagi's nerfed a bit, more frames to do the entire move.

Someone who reads Japanese would be great right now.

Got some help, thanks Kayeff and Zinac for translations!

3H: No longer whiff cancelable into carded specials. Still can cancel on hit to card specials though.

Charged 623K: Air blockable, don't need to FD it in air now.

22D: Slowed down some, takes longer. Normal versions haven't been changed.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Amadeous

[Amadeous]

Going to try to get AC+R for my vita sometime this week. Glad I'm a pad player so I can actually test things.

You guys lemme know if there's anything you want me to test that you haven't seen in vids or aren't 100% sure on and I'll get back to you. Should hopefully have the game by Wednesday.

[president]

Maybe you could check out if there's any way to go into the gacho mixup. Haven't seen that since +R.

Also reliability on the new 236D as a defensive/wakeup tool would be pretty interesting.

[Amadeous]

At the risk of being banned by st1ckbug because he's jealous he can't play it yet (love ya baby <3), here's some of the stuff I've found and my opinions on it:

Jam is fucking nuts now, it's great. Her normals really don't feel like they've changed at all, so pressure and offense is still as strong as ever. Cards are amazing though, any random hit can lead into an average of 200 damage. Actually, let me go into that a bit more:

A simple combo I found early on is fS 236D land SJ jS jH j214D land 5S 2H(1) 6H H 623D 22D. This combo deals about 200 damage on Testament, builds over 25 meter on its own (assuming you're not in any meter-gaining penalty states) so you will ALWAYS get the 22D at the end, AND the charge is fast enough along with the launch from 623D that you have enough time to completely whiff a j2K while they're knocked down, then meaty with 5K or so. This was a day one combo too, so I'm SURE there's way better things out there.

It really does seem though that once Jam gets a 22D in there's no stopping her. ANY combo with the three kicks in them is going to gain her 25 meter back so she can charge again, and should give knockdown so she can get some oki out of it. I haven't tested stuff like the gacho special or choujin mixup yet for oki (doing IADs on the vita's d-pad is kinda awkward for my big hands), but I'm sure it could work.

For more specific things: 2D 236D doesn't work on Ky or Robo-Ky. Since 236SK knocks down now too, it doesn't work either. On the plus side though, 6H H 236D does work on some characters, along with 5H 236D. 6H H doesn't launch them as high, so you're not gonna get wall stick all day from it, instead they just hit the ground and OTG far from you. Between that and 6H groundbouncing on air hit it's REALLY hard to do the old wall loop. You pretty much need to use a card, doesn't really matter which type, to do it. The advantage is now though it's not really height/weight specific, at least not from what I've found. Also ends in knockdown pretty much 100% of the time now.

FBPB is still strong in the corner. You can use it in combos and link into a 5S to do a wall loop and it seems like it hurts more now? Not sure though. You can do the same on CH in the corner too. Frame data also says it has more invul on it too, but I haven't fought anyone to see how different it comes out to be.

Charged Ryujin is different now too. It seems it launches them up higher than the older version, and it definitely doesn't have as much untechable time. The few frames of untech time they shaved from 2H hurts too, they can tech out of 2H 6H if you try to do too many reps with the wall loop.

3H is hugely threatening with a charged kick by the way, but there's no FRC point on it that I can tell, or at least the input bar doesn't flash in training mode. I recall them saying there was one so it might be a glitch, but that might've been pre-patch. Anyway, with a card you can cancel out of it into a charged kick on hit or block, so if you really KNOW they're going to do something you can punish it with, gg their life bar.

6H is fully special cancellable now, 6HH is only cancellable into 22X/Charged kicks. 236SK might be the same as 6HH, will need to double check. Frame data says 236SK still staggers, but it just knocks down, unless it staggers on CH? I'll test that.

President, I haven't tested doing 236D as a defensive tool yet since I don't really have anyone to fight against. I know I've seen JP players use it like that and it seems to still be a high risk/high reward situation. I know it's something I look forward to using defensively, but I can't say if it's really a smart idea yet.

Oh, last thing: 2D 236K and fS TK 236K still work on their character specific hitboxes that they did in AC, and while I haven't gone into combos with them too much right now, it still seems like it's favorable to do that. More damage and such. I've been testing combos and such, and it seems like most of Jam's combos with 3 kicks lead to around 200 damage, 250 if you can get a FBPB in there.

[Amadeous]

Found out you can do 5D link to 623D for a pseudo impossible dust setup. Hahahah this character is so dumb.

Anyway I've tried out a bit more different things in training mode:

Wall loops are doable without cards, just harder to setup without them. Timing revolves around hitting them after the groundbounce of 6H for height control. Took me a bit to get used to it, but it's much easier to get knockdown now it feels.

IAD 214K is really hard if not impossible to crossup with now. Hitbox nerf really killed it for that purpose.

Her damage seems pretty leveled out now, I can hit around 240 on Testament from any starter rather than 200 from some 300 from others, but I still have more things to test.

Shoutouts to Ka2 for proving you can do 6H 236SH in the middle of a wall loop. It's hard to do and I'm not sure what the finisher from it would be or if it'd be worth it without a charge. You can also do 6H 236SD and go to a charged kick or 5S to combo from it in the middle of a wall loop too. Good damage (what isn't).

Basically every time I go into training mode I'm finding new things and realizing her average damage with charged kicks is actually higher than what I thought it was. Girl is crazy. Definitely top tier after a 22D.

[RoBoBOBR]

ACR wiki lists

Ryuujin as 20 dmg move,

Charged Ryuujin has 60F untechable,

6H as lvl 8 move,

6H ground bounce on air hit (32F untechable)

charged moves have wrong commands,

623D has initial prorate, not forced,

Hyappo Shinshou (236S~S) damage listed as 20 (50 in AC),

Senri Shinshou (236S~H) - untechable 40F (AC was 32F)

Senri Shinshou (Crossup) - damage 20 (50 in AC)

Hyappo Shinshou (236S~D) - still shows 3-13F invincible to strikes (like in AC)

either those are typos in wiki (lvl 8 is definitely a typo) or they are changes not mentioned in previous lists in this thread

Also the version of 1.10 patch notes i read had regular charges as slowed down, not 22D (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/jan/19/guilty-gear-xx-accent-core-plus-r-v110-balance-change-list/)

Edited April 23, 2013 by RoBoBOBR

[Amadeous]

The frame data page or the wiki page? I know they were edited some time ago to fit a template, might've gotten fucked up. I'll fix it tonight.

[RoBoBOBR]

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Jam_Frame_Data_(GGACR)

that one