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I-no vs Sol

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:SO: SOL MATCHUP INFORMATION Poking Game Strategy Specific Punishes Setups/baits Knowledge

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I'd really love some general advice for this matchup, it's one that I tend to struggle with. The tourney that I'm attending in a week is going to reek of Sol Badguys.

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Block and throw. The more youre on the ground the easier the match is. Wait for the sol to give you an opening then have at it. Remember you can be thrown out of stbt too.

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Gunflame with no FRC is a free combo for everybody.

Something odd that I found out testing my Sol against CPU I-no. It seems that if I-no does her dash and does j.K/S/HS Sol's grandviper can evade it(since it ducks and pulls back) and punish her.

Sol's 5K loses to I-no's j.D.

I say vs Sol, sit back and be defensive. You have better air control and more range than he does. I believe that most(if not all of you) can pull off H/VCL easily. Remember in the air Sol's VV moves foward a little. His normals with midrange are slow and don't have high priority.

A little tidbit of info: Sol cannot combo into his Gunflame naturally like his BR or Grand Viper. That means when Sol does GF in a blockstring HE HAS NOTHING TO KEEP YOU IN BLOCKSTUN TOO LONG. So I-no can JUMP OUT. Why? Because there is a gap. Take Order-Sol for instance: If he does 2S>6HS if 2S isn't a CH you backdash then 6HS.

Sol's rusdown is average at best. it's no big deal. Plus he's an extremely close range fighter so FD muders his rushdown/pokes/pressure.

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It's weird really. I think it has something to do with I-no animation. I remember her doing it against Order-Sol's 5K and 5K whiffed. It's as if I-no lifts herself up a little bit causing 5K to whiff.

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J.d is used in special circumstances only... not as regular moves to approach with even if it beats Sol/OS 5k. If you had a chance to land and block VV's in time then I'd think about it. I don't recommend to sit there (you will need to rush him down when the time comes) vs Sol but I agree that you are playing much more defensively than usual. If you can safely get him to jump over notes to come in at you via the air I would think it would be much easier to deal with him. Isn't this one of I-no's harder match-ups?

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Yeah, this is one of I-no's tougher matchups. I think it's in Sol's favor.

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The matchup is a pain in the ass for a few reasons: A)5K. 3F startup and AA's. It's faster than whatever I-no has. B) Volcanic Viper. SVV 7F and HSVV 5F. Pretty much the "why I hate Sol" excuse. And it AA's and beats EVERY aerial move you do and ground moves except Longing Desperation. C) Sol hits hard. The man has superhuman strength... D) ASW nerfed I-no for stupid reasons. When it comes to range/mixups/pressure/pokes/rushdown I-no has Sol beat in every category. Sol's rushdown honestly I feel it's nothing but a sad joke. Sol isn't as powerful as people think he is. The main issue is his VV. It's speed ruins a lot of things for I-no. Don't challenge him air 2 air. j.P is a pain. VV beats all your aerials(as stated before). As a Sol player the reason I can beat I-no is because of Volcanic Viper. Sol IMO is better at being defensive than I-no is. Add that to the fact that he needs 0 meter to take half your life and I-no has some issues. VV does a lot for Sol in this fight: AA and stops/beats I-no moves. Vs Sol's j.HS: -Air throw him. Dealing with VV: -Like BMS said stay on the ground. Always be ready to FD if neccessary. -Use your fastest normals. -No HCL unless Sol is stupid enough to do a GF without FRC or outside combos. No wakeup Longing Desperation. Grand Viper beats it clean. No whiffing slow ground normals against Sol. Grand Viper can punish you for it. Another thing: Most Sol's don't use Fafnir but Fafnir can score a CH against I-no' blocked 5D(somewhat range dependant). I wouldn't say the matchup is that hard. It's more of putting yourself in harm's way a lot more than he does. Which is what I mean by Sol being better at being defensive in this fight. -

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If he nears you duck(within WT range) and Wild Throw will whiff.

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but - are you saying that WT whiffs on crouchers? If so.. I think you had better check that again.

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Okay.. let me explain. If Sol moves in and the person ducks right away if Sol tries to do Wild Throw it'll whiff. This is just for a few frames though. Wild Throw can connect on crouch state opponents but for some reason if you duck as soon as he nears you, if he tries a Wild throw it will whiff. The same has happened to me when I play vs the local Potemkin. Pot Buster has whiffed when I crouched. EDIT: So I tried to test it out in training. I programmed Sol to do 2D BR>GF FRC>run WT. test 1: I let Sol do the entire combo. Each time he landed WT. test 2: I blocked everything and he still landed WT. test3: I had Sol do Wild Throw by itself and I still got thrown when I tried to duck it. This baffles me. My Wild Throw has been ducked under the same situation... At least 3 times. I tested it with FD and I still got thrown. So how are my opponents ducking my WT. I thought maybe it was the no throw window on wakeup but that wan't it either. I remember WT not connecting on the first Testy I fought. He FD GF and WT whiffed. So how is that I'm getting different results for the same situations? Character wakeup speed?

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I think you're just trying to throw the enemy when they have throw invincibility. The most common situations that would make it look like the enemy is ducking under WT would be 1) on wakeup - enemy has 9 frames of throw invul 2) during blockstun / hitstun (but not stagger) - enemy cannot be thrown 3) after the enemy is leaving blockstun - enemy has 5 frames of throw invul 4) after the enemy is leaving hitstun - enemy has 6 frames of throw invul So if your GF FRC -> WT is whiffing, you're most likely inputting the grab too early while they're either still in blockstun, or still have some of their 5 frames of throw invul left.

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Thanks Teyah! Didn't know about that extra few frames of throw invul you get when leaving block/hit stun. Hatred Edge: FD'ing and crouch guard makes the block stun from incoming pokes the most it can be (except in slayers case). What you did must be GF > FRC > Dashing WT. This isn't Tekken :gonk: Edit: WT does seem to have less range against crouch opponents, weird.

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Ino - Sol is realistically a 5/5 matchup. the deciding factor is momentum. Ino doesnt have many defensive options to stop sols rush safely without getting baited for VV or GV. However if sol blocks a note then he has no choice but to block 50/50 mixups from her. use that to the advantage and he should be no problem. frc the ground note to make sol jump in and ino's 6p and 5p will own his air approach. also its rediculously easy to bait VV with dash in JH and back dash out of hover.

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If you're fighting the CPU: A) The CPU reads inputs B)The CPU can hitconfirm off of anything since well they read inputs and don't have to input anything. C)Since the CPU reads inputs it *knows* what to use against you i.e. when to use 5K. Dealing with this is rather easy; 5K loses to lows. Or you can be a bastard and j.D his 5K. REMEMBER Sol has to do 5K FIRST then I-no does j.D. J.D will evade the 5K and punish it for a free launch. If I-no does j.D first Sol's 5K will beat it.

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sol can get away with so much in this match...you get cmd thrown for being defensive and uppercutted for being offensive its a funny fight...also you get hit, you die. some combos that you might be used to doing on most chars don't work on sol lol.

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gv blocked - 5p into half life combo (you should have tension by then, if not combo into knockdown) vv blocked - depending on the height, jp>js>jc>js>jhs>sdive , jp into ddive, or just jp into a note vv extension - 6hs for a counterhit into half life combo. jp from far away - 5k into hcl half life combo gatling into 2d gunflame - instant block 2d>jump and punish gunflame with sdive riot stomp - sstbt really late or 6p (ch) normals jk clashes with a lot of weird things even his uppercut at times. jp is just fine if sol likes to airdash a lot. 5k is pretty decent against jp from a distance

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Added some edits now that I'm getting better. Marked with asterisks*.

I can't combo for crap, and Sol's hitbox makes it worse. Specifically trying to land a Pdive during a combo after combing to Sdive > relaunch. It always drops there. A lot of what I go for just doesn't connect.

*This is a pain in the ass and requires c.S releaunch > sj.S instead of j.S. I still can't get that to work consistently - either a regular jump comes out, or I drop the combo out of the super jump.

Anyway, the majority of my practice is against my friend's Sol and he's pretty damn good at this point. Things I've learned:

j.H beats me when I go for the air-throw a lot. This is sort of frustrating, but if I j.4H and err on the side of throwing early (since I have the range for it), I wind up blocking. This is good because of IB the 2nd hit > grounded throw. If Sol ever comes in with j.H, IB both hits if you can, and if not, at least the 2nd hit to try for a throw. You wont get if it he's low to the ground, but if the j.H connects on your block high (either you jump into it or he's too high while you're standing), you'll get the throw.

*Don't forget to air-to-air with j.P sometimes.

90% of the time if I try to airthrow Bandit Bringer, it whiffs and I miss the throw. A lot of the time I'll STBT(H) 6FRC6 > airthrow attempt, and even though they jump out and it looks like I should be in range, I whiff. Can I option select this with say j.6SH so I get a j.S if they don't go airborne, meaning I can do that safely and not have to risk trying a throw on reaction (which gets me VV'd)? That might help, since I'm currently going for either or.

*Edit - **** it, just Slashback this move since it's hugely telegraphed and punish hard. Watch out for Sol RCing it to punish your SB.

I still get a ton of air-throws, but I'm having trouble comboing out of them. On CH it causes a very close wall bounce that lets you 5H > combo right? Otherwise, in the corner, I have to time a 2P > 5P > combo, and that's still hard for me.

*As mentioned in other places (maybe in later posts here?), 2K > c.S is good. About 70% of the time I want c.S, I get f.S, and it pisses me off, but whatever. Most people selective tech at this point and wont try to get out because I'll air-throw again.

If both of your 2D's come out, his wins. If you 2K first, you'll beat it.

If both of you 6P, you win at full range (connecting with the end of the guitar), he wins up close.

f.S makes for really fun VV / Tyrant Rave bait at its max range. Just don't get GV'd or 2D'd.

*Since it's laggy, it's really not recommended as a poke in this matchup since Sol has so much to go under it.

Depending on timing, VV usually beats Longing Desperation, but can lose to it. GV beats it clean by going under it. VV also beats Ultimate Fortissimo. I've had it freeze-frame near the height of the S version and still lose. GV will not go under it, so you'll land into GV and eat a 50% combo. *Be very careful with supers, but don't be afraid to use them.

Fafnir can be thrown for 4 frames before it goes active. Sol can use it on oki to beat wakeup throws, but you can still beat it. Watch out for Fafnir overall - it'll tag you when you dash in, it'll tag your backdash, it normally beats your throws, *it'll hit you if you try to jump out, and it'll beat some of your moves. Go under it with STBT(S) or 2K. *Sol needs to throw this out late to punish throw attempts, so if that's what he's doing, it helps VCL reversal.

Blocking a GV cranks your guard bar while doing decent chip, so if you have meter to spare, FD some of it (be aware of his meter though!). You don't want to FD the last hit (or last few) since you'll push him out of range of a punish. Sol generally doesn't want to risk it without meter or Burst. If he has the meter for it, the cancel points are near startup (around hit 3), near the end (around hit 6 or 7), and on the last hit. Sol might:

GV AGAIN (lol)

Dash in Wild Throw

Dash in > whatever pressure

Stand there a second

If you have burst and want to burst out of GV so you don't eat 50% damage, time it to deal with his RC so you don't waste it. Worst feeling is getting GV'd, going for burst, he RCs > blocks > GV > 50% combo anyway.

*He has to commit to his RC early because of the way GV works (each hit overrides the last, so he has to stop mashing and RC on one of the hits - makes it hard to just watch your burst meter and RC on reaction every time), so he has to do this somewhat on prediction. Burst well and you'll even having him baiting bursts that you're not using, getting you out of combos for free. I suggest trying to learn to Slashback the last hit.

I don't know of anything that beats his 2S out of the gate. Just IB it when you expect it.

If he ever uses bandit revolver, it's -4 on block, so that's a free grab. More importantly, it has a gap between hits where you're not in block-stun. I used to abuse that with 6P > 6H with Chipp and I assume I-No's 6P will go through it too (my friend has stopped overusing it though, and now on reaction the most I usually go for is IB the landing hit > throw since it's safe and guaranteed). If you want to be really flashy, IB the hit before that gap and go for an airthrow. It's frame perfect and doesn't lead to a high damage combo like 6P would, but it's damn sexy. I'm still trying to pull this off on occasion. Or you can slashback and go for it... even sexier. : )

*Sol can still get away with using this to move in closer since blocking the last hit meaty at max range will leave him safe, but you can SB this no problem. This also works for him trying to keep you from jumping out of pressure since you have to FD, and it'll give him free oki if you don't. Being airborne and FDing when he does this makes it really + on block for him, so you'll be forced to sit through another pressure string and mixup. However, if he EVER uses this in a way that is not the way I just described, you get to throw him for free. Oki and win the match off of it.

As far as I know, GV beats everything except getting the **** out of the way or blocking (into some silly mixup when he RCs it). I think I've had 5H spaced at mid distance beat it on one occasion (I should test the range thoroughly since 5H is lower body invincible).

*Decently spaced 5H beats it.

I've been clipped by VV going for 5D when I think I'm far enough away to be safe. That sort of sucks.

If you expect Wild Throw, just 2K it or maybe backdash. Too many of his moves will beat your moves if you try to beat it with anything else. You can go for the 1-frame jump out, but even in the scenario where he commits the throw and whiffs, he's probably in a favorable position under you.

*If you expect a low or wild throw, VCl beats both. 2K is generally good to use here because it's safer if he does something unexpected, but if you want a low/throw option select, use VCL.

I'm starting to use 5K and it's useful as a poke (nice range and starts up pretty quick), but since I can't combo out of the ****ing thing, it doesn't help me much. Maybe it's really good in this matchup and I don't know it?

*It's helpful. I'm just now starting to be able to 5K > HCL > 6frc6 > combo.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

Edited by TheRealBobMan
Grammar fix, adding stuff I learned

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Thanks. I tried that last night and I got the 2K > c.S to work almost every time. : )

What's a good combo out of that? I think I was trying stuff like c.S > j.S > dj > j.S > j.H > Sdive > c.S > j.S > Kdive for around 100. I also tried 2K > c.S > j.S > j.H > HCL > 6FRC6 > j.S > FFVCL > c.S, and then it drops every time I try to continue from here, but I'm at about 125 by this point.

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2k > cs > js > jh > sdive (hold slightly or it will wiff) > cs > super jump js > jh > pdive > 66 > jh > pdive > sdive. does 129 and if they fall straight you can catch them with a 5p for a throw reset. best part about it is it builds a ton of tension.

you shouldn't waste tension off air throws especially deep in the combo unless you have full tension because it's not really worth it. Off wall bounce 5H HCL is a good tension usage and if you want to do it in a 2k cs combo I would suggest doing it as 2k cs vcl frc airdash (because it will give you a ton of follow up options). Even then, your damage won't go too far beyond 140.

air throws are great for dizzy modifier and to build tension. ...not too good for getting damage.

may I suggest this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi5-x8sw3cY

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