[CSE] Carl vs. Relius

[sinder]

Their game plan: push you to the corner

Strategy: CON or corner him. Make it better and have Ignis stand behind you while you beat him to death

Match up in a nutshell

Yawn... You would expect this match to be "blood pump worthy" but it's too basic. You can either eat a huge corner combo or you can reset him to death. Ignis is not a threat at all, unless she knocks you mid screen to the corner. Unfortunately I don't have much to say about this match other than apply the basic CON skills/tricks

How would you rate this match up?

I'm going to say 6-4 just because Carl is Relius' son and Relius is just a poor man's Carl

Videos

* these look like promo vids so I don't think they will help you much, but they're better than nothing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xugQSIIjKQ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijW7hMlPbE0

Discuss

[JG]

Lol, this matchup, im pretty sure that is 6-4 in Carl favor. First of all, at the beginning of the round use 5C. 5C beat all Relius moves at the start of any round.

Anima and Volante will beat led lay for free, the same goes with 8]D[ if you delay it a little. Relius will play keep away, he will not be able to get near you because he will be scare if that he end in CoN he is pretty much dead... so you must stay calm and wait. Against Relius you just need one hit for beat him.

If you know how to use the Unblockable loop, use it. This tool easily destroy Relius, if you want to play with reset keep in mind led ley make that almost any Nirvana moves whiff, so mix it with volante or anima.

Dont force the Air to Ground game. His AA will easily beat any normal that you throw in the Air.

Remember this, you with just a little Nirvana gauge can perform a coulple reset. If Relius have at least 3/4 or 1/2 Igniz gague, he will not be able to do so much against you.

Relius corner UB in corner are pretty bad, use Vivance for escape from that situation.

In this matchup, you just need to play patiently and capitalize the opening. Once you get him, the match will be over.

[Akira-Shiro]

I would have to disagree with both of you on this, while i dont think its in relius's favor i do no believe its in ours.

Relius has pokes to rival ragna, @ the start he can/should/will IAD away because @ neutral he holds all the cards. Due to ignis's speed any ada attack can easily be shut do & take a chuck of her Hp along with yours unless ur as far from Ada as possible & the move im talking about is Haas(214a). Its active frames make it impossible to vivace past if Ada is hit, meaning he hears Ada attack goes for haas & either u block or take 3.6k midscreen =/

Relius gains heat relatively fast & has a UB setup just as good as ours off a DD starter that land 4k midscreen & ~6k in the corner. making it very dangerous. His ignis meter regains extremely fast allowing him to virtually spam her with out us having the ability to stop it. An with him being able to zone fairly well & shut our zoning game down completely he make for a very difficult chase. Haas even if u know its coming u cant stop it.

[edit]

An im not sure wat UB ur talking about JG but carl CANNOT vivace out.

[JG]

I would have to disagree with both of you on this, while i dont think its in relius's favor i do no believe its in ours.

Relius has pokes to rival ragna, @ the start he can/should/will IAD away because @ neutral he holds all the cards. Due to ignis's speed any ada attack can easily be shut do & take a chuck of her Hp along with yours unless ur as far from Ada as possible & the move im talking about is Haas(214a). Its active frames make it impossible to vivace past if Ada is hit, meaning he hears Ada attack goes for haas & either u block or take 3.6k midscreen =/

Relius gains heat relatively fast & has a UB setup just as good as ours off a DD starter that land 4k midscreen & ~6k in the corner. making it very dangerous. His ignis meter regains extremely fast allowing him to virtually spam her with out us having the ability to stop it. An with him being able to zone fairly well & shut our zoning game down completely he make for a very difficult chase. Haas even if u know its coming u cant stop it.

[edit]

An im not sure wat UB ur talking about JG but carl CANNOT vivace out.

You can escape corner after knockdown UB with vivance (i think that you can also escape this kind of UB with just jumping), that happen a lot on japanse vid. I'm not sure if you can escape with this move against the shadow UB setup, the one that consume meter, but that UB isn't very good.

First off all, Relius UB are bad.... really bad, how can you said that his UB are as good as ours? come on! ours UB is DP/DD safe and the opponent can´t just jump out from the UB, we have like 3 UB that are good. We can perform the UB loop against Relius for free! even with a 2A you can kill him right away thank to the UB loop.

How is this match-up could not be in Carl favor? you just need one hit for kill him, volante, 8]D[ and anima will beat led ley. If you beat led ley with Volante or 8]D[ you can easily win the round, also our dmg is way better than him, at midscreen we can do 4k to 6K without depending at the corner like him. Relius have a almost a fullscreen combo that end in the corner, but doing this consume almost all igniz gauge for only 4K and need a good startup.

I agree that he have good poking, that is very true also im pretty sure that some of his normals are better than ours. But he will not be able to just land or get near without troubles, he need to spend a lot igniz meter just for getting close and in our case, we don´t need too much Nirvana gauge for doing a couple reset that deal 4k or even more for reset.

Relius Oki, option, mixup and dmg are way worse than the thing that can do Carl.

Don´t know why, but somehow it feel like you make sound that Carl is bad, and actually in BBEX he is a very strong char, that is why he is A tier. Carl achievement at BBrevo and Godgarden were sick! thank to Kyaku and Ryuseei. Im no´t saying that Carl is godlike or broken, but he is good character.... one of his problem, is that you need a lot of knowledge with him and execution for get the win.

[Akira-Shiro]

You can escape corner after knockdown UB with vivance (i think that you can also escape this kind of UB with just jumping), that happen a lot on japanse vid. I'm not sure if you can escape with this move against the shadow UB setup, the one that consume meter, but that UB isn't very good.

First off all, Relius UB are bad.... really bad, how can you said that his UB are as good as ours? come on! ours UB is DP/DD safe and the opponent can´t just jump out from the UB, we have like 3 UB that are good. We can perform the UB loop against Relius for free! even with a 2A you can kill him right away thank to the UB loop.

How is this match-up could not be in Carl favor? you just need one hit for kill him, volante, 8]D[ and anima will beat led ley. If you beat led ley with Volante or 8]D[ you can easily win the round, also our dmg is way better than him, at midscreen we can do 4k to 6K without depending at the corner like him. Relius have a almost a fullscreen combo that end in the corner, but doing this consume almost all igniz gauge for only 4K and need a good startup.

I agree that he have good poking, that is very true also im pretty sure that some of his normals are better than ours. But he will not be able to just land or get near without troubles, he need to spend a lot igniz meter just for getting close and in our case, we don´t need too much Nirvana gauge for doing a couple reset that deal 4k or even more for reset.

Relius Oki, option, mixup and dmg are way worse than the thing that can do Carl.

Don´t know why, but somehow it feel like you make sound that Carl is bad, and actually in BBEX he is a very strong char, that is why he is A tier. Carl achievement at BBrevo and Godgarden were sick! thank to Kyaku and Ryuseei. Im no´t saying that Carl is godlike or broken, but he is good character.... one of his problem, is that you need a lot of knowledge with him and execution for get the win.

Uhh JG i said 'A' UB =/ meaning the one from his gear DD all the rest of his UB's are boot leg,, & yet again u fail to see the situation...... Relius has no need to 'go in' he can zone all day with pokes from ignis. Anyone who tries led ley in a serious fight without ignis is free #1 so why ur even bringing it into this matchup IDK if relius does his job right carl can never approach him & once again relius does not need to move forward when ignis does it for him & relius also can get ~4k + oki & yes he uses alot of meter but she recovers 90% back with 3c 5D oki ender into 2a 2a 2a 5b 5c 2c (She is @ full by this point in the block string) & he has fram traps with Haas/5D mash bait.An ur right relius is like a shitty version of us,, but Ada is a shitty version of ignis Relius has better normals the best physical CA in the game & a reversal that goes into a UB setup for a total of about ~6k. Lol yea hes such a bad character ( sarcasm )

What i never understood was why people bring Ignis Hp up as a big factor. Ur not suppose to yomi 4D/Haas she isnt ada she moves fast enought for u to REACT to all situations. So once u do get in she has decent Hp for a j236c 214B ender into Jd & return back to neutral. Returning to neutral is in no way bad for relius he has good zonning skills & amazing anti zonning skills. A smart relius player would return to neutral after all none 3c 5D oki enders because Ignis is gettin all her hp back half way through his blockstring. So in relius vs carl im sorry to say but if u get a chance to use ur AA & not have it baited by jD the relius is free/has a free moment

BTW Relius 's UB setup... cause i dont think understand which one im talking about is blah > blah > 5c>6c(crouching)/ 5c>2c(standing)> DD 6c >236D [ignis low) > jc

I said it was similar to our because its a safe jump jb on Dp characters meaning it stops DD/Dps & a meaty jc on none Dp characters ie carl plat valk tao bang tager ect.. its exactly the same & gets a total of 6k for 50% ignis meter

[Psykotik]

Akira, I'm with JG and sinder on this one. Relius' normals, while better than Carl's, aren't anywhere as good as Ragna's. His UB is legit but our UBs are much better and doesn't require meter to set up in most cases so I wouldn't say Relius has an edge over Carl just because he has a costly version of Carl's UB. Also, Ignis' meter is relatively low so it's easy for Relius to run out of steam. While this isn't a huge problem during combos, it can be a thorn in Relius' side if he's doing blockstrings and/or is trying to follow up a UB setup.

As for zoning, Relius can't exactly box out Carl with just Ignis. Carl is independent of Ada so even if Ada is hit by Ignis, Carl can still skip ahead and put himself at a dangerous range.

Defensively, Relius has nothing but his CA (which is baitable) and Led Ley (which kinda sucks). I'd say Carl's much better off as not only are his options better, Relius' offense is not nearly as good as Carl's.

Also...

Uhh JG i said 'A' UB =/ meaning the one from his gear DD all the rest of his UB's are boot leg,, & yet again u fail to see the situation...... Relius has no need to 'go in' he can zone all day with pokes from ignis. Anyone who tries led ley in a serious fight without ignis is free #1 so why ur even bringing it into this matchup IDK if relius does his job right carl can never approach him & once again relius does not need to move forward when ignis does it for him & relius also can get ~4k + oki & yes he uses alot of meter but she recovers 90% back with 3c 5D oki ender into 2a 2a 2a 5b 5c 2c (She is @ full by this point in the block string) & he has fram traps with Haas/5D mash bait.An ur right relius is like a shitty version of us,, but Ada is a shitty version of ignis Relius has better normals the best physical CA in the game & a reversal that goes into a UB setup for a total of about ~6k. Lol yea hes such a bad character ( sarcasm )

What i never understood was why people bring Ignis Hp up as a big factor. Ur not suppose to yomi 4D/Haas she isnt ada she moves fast enought for u to REACT to all situations. So once u do get in she has decent Hp for a j236c 214B ender into Jd & return back to neutral. Returning to neutral is in no way bad for relius he has good zonning skills & amazing anti zonning skills. A smart relius player would return to neutral after all none 3c 5D oki enders because Ignis is gettin all her hp back half way through his blockstring. So in relius vs carl im sorry to say but if u get a chance to use ur AA & not have it baited by jD the relius is free/has a free moment

BTW Relius 's UB setup... cause i dont think you understand which one im talking about is blah > blah > 5c>6c(crouching)/ 5c>2c(standing)> DD 6c >236D [ignis low) > jc

I said it was similar to our because its a safe jump jb on Dp characters meaning it stops DD/Dps & a meaty jc on none Dp characters ie carl plat valk tao bang tager ect.. its exactly the same & gets a total of 6k for 50% ignis meter

You really need to stop being so condescending in your posts. Every other Carl player here knows about Relius' tools. Just because they don't share your viewpoints doesn't mean that they lack the knowledge you have. Stop thinking that you're smarter than everyone else here.

[JG]

BTW Relius 's UB setup... cause i dont think understand which one im talking about is blah > blah > 5c>6c(crouching)/ 5c>2c(standing)> DD 6c >236D [ignis low) > jc

I said it was similar to our because its a safe jump jb on Dp characters meaning it stops DD/Dps & a meaty jc on none Dp characters ie carl plat valk tao bang tager ect.. its exactly the same & gets a total of 6k for 50% ignis meter

Funny thing, that setup is the Shadow UB setup. That why i mentioned before that: i wasn't sure if you can escape from that like the other Relius UB. Another thing, im not sure but the Shadow UB is not DP/DD safe because you use j.C, is more like DP/DD safe in a sense that you can crossup or not with j.C. The problem with Relius j.C is that move, when land to the ground somehow put Relius like ´´floating`` near the ground, that why is only DP/DD against specific moves.

[sinder]

You really need to stop being so condescending in your posts. Every other Carl player here knows about Relius' tools. Just because they don't share your viewpoints doesn't mean that they lack the knowledge you have. Stop thinking that you're smarter than everyone else here.

Nope

Akira is the best Carl player in the US, so everything we say is wrong, while he is 100% correct on everything

I'm sorry for saying that this matchup is in our favor akira, and it is pretty obvious that it isn't in Relius' either, in fact, this match up cannot be measured to any standards at all

and yes, meterless Ignis is not a huge factor on relius or his gameplan

Please forgive our lack of knowledge on all Carl matchups because we only fight super free opponents, while you fight the top BB players in the world

[Akira-Shiro]

relius has all the tools to stop us & we can approach him but he has a way easyer time approaching us. Sure his UBs arnt as good as out but he has more hp 1 UB from relius is ~6k thats 2/3 of our hp. An unfortunately relius does have better normals then ragna, relius has 5b which is better then ragnas. Dont believe me check the fram data same startup, less active & less recovery, but a better hitbox. Now as for bigger distances jd beats any & everything along with Haas to easy stop ground approach. As for air 4D/2c beats it all so jumpins are a no no.....

But if i came off as arrogant i apologies, but i play relius & am aware of all the options he has vs what u all expect & its just you all are making him alot worse then he is, Even tho u may think im being a dick when i talk to JG i want 0 misunderstandings due to the language barrier i word my sentences in a way that insures he understands.

If u look @ our conversation i mention relius's UB being just as good as ours an his mistook that for relius 3c 214D & 6a 236D shennanigans which is not what i was talking about. An even then its a debate he gives his side i give mine idk wtf u two are so butt hurt about but its a matchup thread while, An JG & you (sinder) both made it seem as tho relius will RTSDFTW. Its very misleading information infact he should/probably will do the exact opposite. Its similar to our litchi matchup its entirely to easy if litchi rtsd so did our matchup for her consist of "Oh her Dp is @ss & her air normals can easy be AA,, ehh 6-4 matchup carl favor" <-------- that right there is what u all are doing & its an insult to relius & as i said before its not in our favor nore is it in his its 5-5 hhe holds all the cards @ neutral just like our Tao & Valk matchup only difference is he cant control space like they can. An im oh so sorry sinder for ever giving my opinion in a matchup thread PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!!!

-_- yea right, suck it up & move on cause the hostility is unnecessary. I apologies if i offended u JG

[edit]

Oh almost forgot u cant just go in to avoid ignis i dont remember who said it but Haas will catch any IAD ur best way to cover space is 6688 it covers more distance the a super jump IAD & u can block. This can also place him in a very spacious CON & be careful if he wasnt place in CON while in hitstun he can aim for u but due to ignis backwards hitbox will hit both Ada & u lets say 5b 5c 6D to close the gap in CON he can do Haas because of how far Ada its her 6D hits him @ like the last 2 active frames he can haas that situation & a Haas starter is ~4k + 3c oki depending on spacing.

[TD]

l kinda agree with akira on some points. relius will not be trying to get in. he will be zoning continually, forcing mistakes on carl's behalf. using lanto (not haas akira), lyra, and j.xd. carl will have a hard time keeping up in neutral, ignis reactively stops alot of nirvana's and carl's options if relius plays properly.

the fact that carl kills relius on one hit is no laughing matter. assuming the carl does loldrop the loops and factoring in bursts, l would think relius has 2, 3 max chances to fuck up before getting UB'd to death. again though, relius can zone, pressure, and anti-approach really well.

based on these points l would think the MU would be more close to 5.5 4.5 carl favor.

and akira, relius 5b is not better than ragna's 5b. i'd love to explain to you why, but i'm afraid i've run out of

[Akira-Shiro]

hmm i factored in the UB but if ada doesnt have the Hp we looking @ 1rep= ~7k so i guess i could see it as 5.5-4.5 our favor if the loop is done & 5-5 without the loop (I always neglect it)

[JG]

hmm i factored in the UB but if ada doesnt have the Hp we looking @ 1rep= ~7k so i guess i could see it as 5.5-4.5 our favor if the loop is done & 5-5 without the loop (I always neglect it)

You need little Ada for doing one rep, because when you do the UB loop you can turn off turn on nirvana.

[Akira-Shiro]

Im aware, its why i said if Ada doesnt have the Hp we looking @ 1rep

[Narcastic]

Whats so hard fighting relius?, he has universal hitbox like Bang, his 236A can be counter throw by baiting 5A or 5B micro dash Grab. Ignis move can be cancelled as long you hit Relius, and his damage when he's not in the corner setup aint much.

the greatest advantage of carl so far were his small hit box.

anyway, you guys really like to hit each other opinion with your own @_@, try to reply with wider vision so there wont be any misunderstanding please.

[Sqwirl]

Hardest part of this match up for me is getting in =x

Ignis spins through nirvana shutting down most options I have on moving her, and one mistake puts me farther and farther behind...until I finally hit him.

[Narcastic]

Hardest part of this match up for me is getting in =x

Ignis spins through nirvana shutting down most options I have on moving her, and one mistake puts me farther and farther behind...until I finally hit him.

Force CON if I must say, try to trap him inside con, either try to bait him in a techable combo, or do vivase - 22D to try forcing him inside CON, many ways to catch relius, even if he's doing IAD j.b. or just bait him to IAD J.b and counter it with 2C.

Either way, for me, relius vs Carl is 70:30 for Carl.

[Akira-Shiro]

Sinder the major issue in this matchup is catching Relius. Its very similar to the Carl vs Tao matchup. Although its less difficult to catch Relius its still difficult.

[Lunar_Divider]

It's Carls. Ignis doesn't last nearly as long as ADA and some of ADA's attacks can still go through regardless if Carl gets hit or not. Relius' 5B has a hurtbox that can easily be hit with a mashed 5A or 5B of your own. He doesn't have any way to really get out of pressure other than counter assaults. The only hurdle you have to overcome in this matchup is actually catching him, but once hes in the corner it's basically game over unless you are predictable and don't use ADA's gdlk tools like you should.

[Narcastic]

play the "respect" carls poke and force them to do lay and grab them, do the 22D afterward and the rest is up to you.

[TD]

Not only is it hard for Carl to catch relius; it's rather easy for relius to catch Carl and gain momentum. Relius 214a/b are instant momentum shifts in the neutral that shut nirvana down upon contact, decent recovery, and hard for Carl to deal with. Vivace isn't recommended as a good relius constantly factors in Carl's current position and where hell be post vivace. Relius 2b,3c, 5b, ja and ignis make it really hard for Carl to approach consistently.

Narc, from how I see your viewing of the matchup you need to fight a better relius.

[Narcastic]

Narc, from how I see your viewing of the matchup you need to fight a better relius.

I guess you're right *sight*. I'm kinda jealous of you people got sooo many match up against different character.