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Kiba

[P4A] Elizabeth Self Improvement and Critique Thread

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hey I'll be helpful for once

Alright here are some of my matches. I feel like I could have done better or much more but lag and bad inputs hinder me from doing much more so I do what I can but lets see what you guys think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-i_hgzdZc

:31 - wat. you might as well forget Liz has this super, don't use it.

:46 - hit confirm with 5AAA instead, that's the only thing that works at that distance

1:07 - you got lucky. Wakeup throw on Kanji is asking to die.

1:54 - I don't even. Don't use AOA randomly in neutral like that, other people can bit Liz's is terrible.

2:16 -2:22 - why are you playing like this? Liz is at advantage at neutral and on wake-up, no need to random out on a life advantage

3:05 - did you wakeup AOA kanji on purpose...?

3:26 - learn the hitconfirm 5D > 8 > jB > jA > jC > 5A > 5B > stuff. Every liz needs to internalize this and it works on everybody.

General observations: do more jB's to space Kanji out, that and 2B are Liz's strongest tools. If you notice Kanji DPing after every single 5C, then IAD jB instead to punish it for free.

:53 - wat. that was an easy hitconfirm with 5A > 5C > whatever, don't just let that huge damage drop.

General observations - this yosuke was bad so it didn't matter, but in general. You use EX fire way too much in neutral. Yosuke's EX dash has projectile invincibility and can punish it on reaction, try not to rely on it. You're also very trigger happy on the DP, don't get so scared when you're put into a little pressure.

This Naoto is bad. Really bad. Randomly doing firewalls in neutral is a free B+D punish for her from full screen, better players will wreck you for even thinking about it.

1:19 - always hitconfirm Naoto/Yosuke/Akihiko/Liz/Labryses with 5B > 2AB > garu loops. It's easy gigantic damage, no reason not to.

No comment.

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Just some things that I noticed, but you're pretty solid overall:

Vs. Yukiko - I don't think you punish her Persona enough. It seems like you're only challenging her throwing projectiles, and when Yukiko throws out like 5D/3D/whatever, it looks like you're hesitant to press a button. I like 5B for this MU instead of 2B, since if Yukiko throws fans after her persona attack, 5B will usually eat them + punish the persona. It has a larger horizontal hitbox too, so the persona being too far away is never a problem. Jump cancel-able too, so you can always hit the persona and chicken block.

@7:15 - Minor thing, but you could've just done 5B > 5C > etc and it would've killed him. I'm assuming you dropped the combo because of nerves or something, but I like guaranteed damage that's easy over a more optimal combo that's more difficult if the easier combo will win the game.

Vs. Yu - Not much to say about this MU. I think you should cover yourself in the air more. For example, when you threw out j.D, you got punished with run-up 2B. I would suggest double jump away or j.236D (this can be punished or start up, too). Mind charge > roll seems kinda silly to me, btw.

@16:40 - Dunno why you did that.

@17:43 - Should have just done j.B > j.236D [2] > 5A. I don't think j.C > 2A combos in the corner since you're not IADing, but I could be wrong.

@20:54 - Tournament nerves are so bad, lol.

Vs. Teddie - Watch out for EX Teddievision. Best to play it safe when Teddie has meter and not throw out anything that can be beat. Generally speaking, you seem afraid of Teddie, or LK. You DP more in this set than in any of the others (which you never really used DP to begin with). A lot of Teddie's buttons are good, and you just gotta respect 'em.

@15:54 - You had meter to OMC and keep yourself safe.

Overall, you're pretty solid. Just a small note; I think that you should either 5B/5A after garu, or practice garu loops on more difficult characters.

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Vs. Yukiko - I don't think you punish her Persona enough. It seems like you're only challenging her throwing projectiles, and when Yukiko throws out like 5D/3D/whatever, it looks like you're hesitant to press a button. I like 5B for this MU instead of 2B, since if Yukiko throws fans after her persona attack, 5B will usually eat them + punish the persona. It has a larger horizontal hitbox too, so the persona being too far away is never a problem. Jump cancel-able too, so you can always hit the persona and chicken block.
I'm definitely still learning this match-up. I kept eating 5D's because I wanted to 2B them but didn't adapt to still being in block stun. I never thought about using breaking the persona with 5B and had no idea it could be jump canceled from there. That's mega useful tech.

@7:15 - Minor thing, but you could've just done 5B > 5C > etc and it would've killed him. I'm assuming you dropped the combo because of nerves or something, but I like guaranteed damage that's easy over a more optimal combo that's more difficult if the easier combo will win the game.

@16:40 - Dunno why you did that.
I like to use SB laser OMC as a free opportunity without getting punished, but it wasn't very good for this situation.

@17:43 - Should have just done j.B > j.236D [2] > 5A. I don't think j.C > 2A combos in the corner since you're not IADing, but I could be wrong.
It does combo but it probably wouldn't have killed anyway. I never even thought about going into Garu from there, that definitely would have killed. I have to log that one away.

@20:54 - Tournament nerves are so bad, lol.
that made me so freaking sad, wanted to regular dash and got air dash instead :|

Overall, you're pretty solid. Just a small note; I think that you should either 5B/5A after garu, or practice garu loops on more difficult characters.
I'm gonna stop going for the difficult garu loops. They're just too difficult to do reliably and almost got me killed a number of times.

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@GearHead- after having played you I can give you a proper critique on your liz.

lol @ j.B clash at the start of half the matches.

You use A.Zio way too much. Yeah it worked on me, but I have a problem with blocking. Once I actually decide to block it, it was easy to punish, and most characters are able to punish it, so should tone it down.

You use SB.Agi way too much as well. Really it should only be used inside a combo since its very easy to punish for huge damage. You always used it after a DP to bring me back to you, but almost always to little effect since its easy to block liz nonexistent mixup, so you essentially just wasted 25 meter. you could for opt D.Agi instead which saves you the meter and gives you a better chance at doing a mixup(j.A or fake jump 2a), although its not completely safe like DP SB.Agi. Or you could learn more option after SB.Agi like grab or crossup j.C i dunno.

I think you saw how silly C.Agi was. Yes it does give you a frame advantage, but not with how close you were running with it. you just ran into 5B 5C jC once i stopped being stupid. A much better run in option is SB.Zio OMC, although it doesn't get you in for free like narukami ziodyne or chie agnestrya. But when it hits? Too Good.

Many times you didn't continue Thanatos pressure from far away after a knockdown. I dunno if that was to conserve persona cards, but you really should, its one of the few times liz has mixup options. Its worth sacrificing the persona card.

Consider using OMC during 5C. Makes him much more dangerous. to do it, its 2OMC in case you didn't know. I just found out yesterday.

Consider using D.Garu as an approach tool. Definitely should do more j.B to get in.

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@GearHead- after having played you I can give you a proper critique on your liz.

lol @ j.B clash at the start of half the matches.

You use A.Zio way too much. Yeah it worked on me, but I have a problem with blocking. Once I actually decide to block it, it was easy to punish, and most characters are able to punish it, so should tone it down.

You use SB.Agi way too much as well. Really it should only be used inside a combo since its very easy to punish for huge damage. You always used it after a DP to bring me back to you, but almost always to little effect since its easy to block liz nonexistent mixup, so you essentially just wasted 25 meter. you could for opt D.Agi instead which saves you the meter and gives you a better chance at doing a mixup(j.A or fake jump 2a), although its not completely safe like DP SB.Agi. Or you could learn more option after SB.Agi like grab or crossup j.C i dunno.

I think you saw how silly C.Agi was. Yes it does give you a frame advantage, but not with how close you were running with it. you just ran into 5B 5C jC once i stopped being stupid. A much better run in option is SB.Zio OMC, although it doesn't get you in for free like narukami ziodyne or chie agnestrya. But when it hits? Too Good.

Many times you didn't continue Thanatos pressure from far away after a knockdown. I dunno if that was to conserve persona cards, but you really should, its one of the few times liz has mixup options. Its worth sacrificing the persona card.

Consider using OMC during 5C. Makes him much more dangerous. to do it, its 2OMC in case you didn't know. I just found out yesterday.

Consider using D.Garu as an approach tool. Definitely should do more j.B to get in.

Alright sounds good ^_^ Yeah still trying to get out of the habit of DP SB.Agi, I should conserve meter more and OMC which I'm starting to get used to gonna need more practice though. About the the knockdown that was to preserve cards but I wasn't sure how to continue pressure at the time; just wanted to chip you out and wait for an opening. D. Garu should be used more and need to get in the habit of using j.B offensively; usually use it as defense. Also should I j.D air turn more for me it somehow presents a risk maybe its just me being paranoid.

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Hey errybody, I would reeeaaally like to step up my p4a play, so anyone here mind giving me some critique? Heres me playing a few matches from the xbl 3v3 thing last season, I've improved my combos and blocking since then, but I still want to see if theres anything i'm screwing up on that i've yet to notice.

http://youtu.be/V48QDfSBP0w?t=8m4s

http://youtu.be/pjbOugMLNHc?t=25m56s

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have you learned the 5D/jD jB jA jC 2A~ stuff combo yet?

you were lacking that back then, and its so much better than jA jB jA jB jC

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Yeah I've got that down now

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remember that garu loops are extremely easy to do on Labrys and Naoto, there's no reason not to do them after hits like 5D.

you relied too much on 5D for mix-up and that doesn't work on good players offline.

Ditto for AOA, except it's 5 times worse. You'll lose whole matches for using it as mix-up on good players.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pux6MgkWCtI

I know there is still much I have to learn and improve on. I can do some OTG stuff but I'm still learning. I really like Elizabeth though, despite her weaknesses and I plan to stick with her to the end.

I posted this in the wrong thread before I went for my walk. Eh, sorry about that. :v:

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hit confirm 5D with 5B > Sweep > Garu on Labrys.

You roll a lot in neutral as if on prediction, but it's not actually predicting anything and you got hit for doing it a couple of times. If you think she's going to IAD jB then predict with your own jB, way safer on whiff.

Don't ever regular air dash towards Labrys, her 2B will eat you every time. Do IATD > AT jB instead. Honestly, get used to IATD as your default because it's 100x better than regular IAD.

IAD throw at the start of a match is extremely unsafe and doesn't beat a lot of things.

At 1:19, if you had OMC'd the Maziodyne you would've wall sticked her and ended the match with a burst safe combo. OMC Zio is really strong near the corner.

At 2:51, I know it worked out because this labrys can't react to 5D but she was crouching and you could've hit confirmed with A Bufu.

Work on different pressure variations. 5A/2A > 5B > 5C > 5D or 2C is extremely easy to avoid and often that's all you did - there's a lot of different things Liz can do to mix it up.

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hit confirm 5D with 5B > Sweep > Garu on Labrys.

You roll a lot in neutral as if on prediction, but it's not actually predicting anything and you got hit for doing it a couple of times. If you think she's going to IAD jB then predict with your own jB, way safer on whiff.

Don't ever regular air dash towards Labrys, her 2B will eat you every time. Do IATD > AT jB instead. Honestly, get used to IATD as your default because it's 100x better than regular IAD.

IAD throw at the start of a match is extremely unsafe and doesn't beat a lot of things.

At 1:19, if you had OMC'd the Maziodyne you would've wall sticked her and ended the match with a burst safe combo. OMC Zio is really strong near the corner.

At 2:51, I know it worked out because this labrys can't react to 5D but she was crouching and you could've hit confirmed with A Bufu.

Work on different pressure variations. 5A/2A > 5B > 5C > 5D or 2C is extremely easy to avoid and often that's all you did - there's a lot of different things Liz can do to mix it up.

Yeah, I was expecting her to jump when I did that. Thanks for the critique though. Is there a video on Liz pressure strings? It would help because I get too eager to throw out Thanatos too early.

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rolling against an IAD pressure from labrys is good though. tectal says he hates how people get out for free with it.

if you can get the timing on that combo eshi mentions, then you got the timing for the gdlk jb ja jc combo.

SB Knuckle(labrys chain arm move) will beat liz's zio and agi's if they are done at the proper range.

2C makes SB Agi burst safe.

if they burst, you can punish with a FC combo. if they don't, you can follow up with zio.

@Eshi- whats IATD > AT jB?

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rolling against an IAD pressure from labrys is good though. tectal says he hates how people get out for free with it.

if you can get the timing on that combo eshi mentions, then you got the timing for the gdlk jb ja jc combo.

SB Knuckle(labrys chain arm move) will beat liz's zio and agi's if they are done at the proper range.

2C makes SB Agi burst safe.

if they burst, you can punish with a FC combo. if they don't, you can follow up with zio.

@Eshi- whats IATD > AT jB?

See bolded part.

1. Yeah, I just realized I could have OMC there. I watched it over and facepalmed at that. There were other times where I facepalmed too, like air dashing towards Labrys like an idiot even though I've played with her for a while and know about her 2b.

2. I noticed that too. I will be more careful next time.

Elizabeth feels so hard in neutral. I don't know if I really have the general idea of how to use her yet but I'm not giving up. There's just something I like about her, aside from the damage.

Oh, and Eshi meant the air turn dash. I have it mapped to L1 and I can do it but I tend to forget online. It's like you jump, dash, and then face the opposite direction for a crossup.

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In regards to blockstrings/pressure, I like 5A a lot. It's only -1 on block and has 7 frame start-up I think, so you can get hit out of things like 5A > 5A > 5A, but I think 5A stagger is good for testing the waters. 2A is -3 on block as well, but I like to throw 2A in there as well. Generally, I like to do something like 5A > 5A > IAD backwards j.B. If the person was attempting to disrespect another 5A, IAD back j.B should catch whatever they were trying to do, for the most part. If I opt to use 5B in a blockstring, I usually cancel it into something else before it returns. The gap of the cards going out and returning is really punishable and most if not all of the cast can DP you during this time. 2D is also pretty cool in blockstrings because if your opponent wants to punish Thanatos, you can get a free 5A/5B CH confirm.

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In regards to blockstrings/pressure, I like 5A a lot. It's only -1 on block and has 7 frame start-up I think, so you can get hit out of things like 5A > 5A > 5A, but I think 5A stagger is good for testing the waters. 2A is -3 on block as well, but I like to throw 2A in there as well. Generally, I like to do something like 5A > 5A > IAD backwards j.B. If the person was attempting to disrespect another 5A, IAD back j.B should catch whatever they were trying to do, for the most part. If I opt to use 5B in a blockstring, I usually cancel it into something else before it returns. The gap of the cards going out and returning is really punishable and most if not all of the cast can DP you during this time. 2D is also pretty cool in blockstrings because if your opponent wants to punish Thanatos, you can get a free 5A/5B CH confirm.

I was watching some of Bace's videos to get an idea of how the blockstrings work.

Welp, back to the lab.

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I mean the garu combo. 5D 5B Sweep DGaru ~stuff. it has the same timing as 5D jB jA jC 2A ~stuff.

This is in relation to the round where you land 2 FC 5D. It would have been really simple to add in a Sweep D.Garu since its easy on labrys.

And the 2C advice is in relation to the round you landed SB Agi on the downed opponent, and would of finished the round with a single hit if they had not burst. 2C would have finished them off regardless of whether they burst or not, provided you follow up after a missed burst.

I can't quite envision this air turn dash you're talking about. Airturn backdash is good, but I'm not seeing how it protects you from labrys 2B.

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I mean the garu combo. 5D 5B Sweep DGaru ~stuff. it has the same timing as 5D jB jA jC 2A ~stuff.

This is in relation to the round where you land 2 FC 5D. It would have been really simple to add in a Sweep D.Garu since its easy on labrys.

And the 2C advice is in relation to the round you landed SB Agi on the downed opponent, and would of finished the round with a single hit if they had not burst. 2C would have finished them off regardless of whether they burst or not, provided you follow up after a missed burst.

I can't quite envision this air turn dash you're talking about. Airturn backdash is good, but I'm not seeing how it protects you from labrys 2B.

I have much to learn.

And maybe there's some weird trick to it or something. Anyway, thanks for helping out guys. This is really appreciative. I need to spend more time in the lab.

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rolling against an IAD pressure from labrys is good though. tectal says he hates how people get out for free with it.

if you can get the timing on that combo eshi mentions, then you got the timing for the gdlk jb ja jc combo.

SB Knuckle(labrys chain arm move) will beat liz's zio and agi's if they are done at the proper range.

2C makes SB Agi burst safe.

if they burst, you can punish with a FC combo. if they don't, you can follow up with zio.

@Eshi- whats IATD > AT jB?

Instant air turn dash > air turn jB. Inputs: 9A+C6 > A+C > jB

Her normal air dash is slow and ridiculously easy to punish, but the angle of trajectory on her back air dash is way better and safer. It has nothing to do with cross-ups, it's just a safer way of jumping in on Labrys with jB because you should never ever ever normal air dash to her.

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Instant air turn dash > air turn jB. Inputs: 9A+C6 > A+C > jB

Her normal air dash is slow and ridiculously easy to punish, but the angle of trajectory on her back air dash is way better and safer. It has nothing to do with cross-ups, it's just a safer way of jumping in on Labrys with jB because you should never ever ever normal air dash to her.

Okay, so I will work on air dash turn then. I can do it but I'm so used to BBs automatic turn.

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Tell me, is the only reason I got bodied was because I wasn't respecting 5A on wake-up? Honestly, Kanji mindgames are really scary, especially when you don't have much MU experience. Kinda feel disappointed because this is far from my best showing. I thought I knew how to play better :v:.

Match.

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Tell me, is the only reason I got bodied was because I wasn't respecting 5A on wake-up? Honestly, Kanji mindgames are really scary, especially when you don't have much MU experience. Kinda feel disappointed because this is far from my best showing. I thought I knew how to play better :v:.

Match.

there's a lot more than just 5a, honestly. it's pretty clear you and he both don't really knew the matchup all that well. let's see:

1. your teching habits blew you up really hard. especially for the first match, he'd catch you with a tech trap that you teched predictably into, and then you lateteched immediately after, which he capatilized into a notech punish. knowing how/when to tech kanji's 236D/236CD rather than just noteching and hoping for the best would be a good start.

2. not respecting lightning at all. kanji's a grappler with anti zoning tools, you gotta remember that and constantly watch your spacing to avoid getting shocked for free! every time you dodge lightnign as well you can take a card off of him potentially since his persona leaves itself wide open once he sets it up. especially at the start of the round, when he shocked you and set up lightning again, that first bolt has a 35f startup, you can do roll/dp/whichever to move out of the way. ofc he can bait it somewhat but just letting him go for it is probably worse (i sincerely doubt he was baiting for you to roll, since he airdashed backwards w) while i say this though, don't be afraid to be back on this half of the screen-kanji has a very hard time getting in on liz, and if you just sit in his lightning ranges and bait him to do one and dodge it before that 35f startup finishes, it's a free tk laser to take one of his cards (his options are pretty poor to punish that, j.214ab gets hit by the hitbox of laser 80-90% of the time, and he has to jump and lightning again generally)

3. dealing with 5a/grab mixups: well, yeah, that's what makes him stupid and viable. he's scary as shit to deal with. sometimes you've just gotta guess whether you need to jump on wakeup or respect the 5a! don't try and find an 'easy way out', try to legitimately play the guessing game and learn a kanji's habits, you'll get way further learning that. just go for a CH 2b if you have a read on a grab or if you want to be safe, upback when you think you know when the grab is coming, block otherwise. either that, or whiff ghastly once you're in awakening and hope he didn't wait on you to do something on wakeup w.i don't think he actually respected your wakeup once the entire vid, so that would have been a free 3-4k! also, like... end of first roundish, he gets a full dial A on you, and then just pressures you again for a quick knockdown, then grabs you on wakeup. it was straight forward 'respect my 5a, respect my 5a, haha just kiddin i grabbed you' grab training. having an answer to kanji's blockstring extensions will also help here--he did bad confirms/blockstrings into 236b a few times on block/hit, which is a 2b for you minimum, i think there's a better punish tho iirc. and finally, going for DP isn't really a good option vs his wakeup/blocksting pressure either, all he has to do is remember you can do it and hold up on reaction and get a j.c for a free 5k.

4. respecting kanji's j.c when you have him cornered is pretty important too. it's his most reliable air option to beat liz 2b and it's a 5k CH starter for him (unless you're in the air and he doesn't omb) - he hit you with it 2, 3 times in footsies i think. if he whiffs it you can punish that shit for free, especially if he was trying to get a hit confirm and doesn't iad backwards after hitting you with it. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ab5GcqnVKmY#t=83s like here, there's a round right there, tho he baited your burst with 236D instead and got the tech trap. and then you lateteched so he punished it... y'see?) kanji destroys you when he gets in, but if you play it carefully and know how to beat his options, you'll do fine, y'know? especially in pressure, ESPECIALLY in corner, kanji has to make some hard decisions to get out of it, sometimes you can just wait for a sec and reset pressure for free because of it w

5. also, second round, getting hit by his DP when you set up j.b, there's really no reason to ever get hit by DP as liz, let alone with that setup-just jumping back would still get you a hit confirm CH since he blindly woke up DP and a tight enough blockstring to pressure. :V You have the most tools out of everyone in the game to avoid that DP hitting you, so yea!

should also get out of that garu as a poke habit-you have 7500 health and you want to do a move that makes you a giant target in hopes of people not knowing the matchup and not supering/dping it to murder you on ch? :< like i said, this guy didn't know the matchup so it worked for you ~3 times, but if he knew better that was a free 4k meterless, 5k meter punish each time you did.

also i wrote this at 7am so sorry if i flubbed a sentence up and it doesn't really make sense. =3=

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Thanks for the lengthy reply, Omex. I owe ya. See bolded.

there's a lot more than just 5a, honestly. it's pretty clear you and he both don't really knew the matchup all that well. let's see:

1. your teching habits blew you up really hard. especially for the first match, he'd catch you with a tech trap that you teched predictably into, and then you lateteched immediately after, which he capatilized into a notech punish. knowing how/when to tech kanji's 236D/236CD rather than just noteching and hoping for the best would be a good start.

True, I wasn't exactly sure what to do. Thing is, there're like no Kanjis in my scene and XBL is barren. Hard to get the MU EXP.

2. not respecting lightning at all. kanji's a grappler with anti zoning tools, you gotta remember that and constantly watch your spacing to avoid getting shocked for free! every time you dodge lightnign as well you can take a card off of him potentially since his persona leaves itself wide open once he sets it up. especially at the start of the round, when he shocked you and set up lightning again, that first bolt has a 35f startup, you can do roll/dp/whichever to move out of the way. ofc he can bait it somewhat but just letting him go for it is probably worse (i sincerely doubt he was baiting for you to roll, since he airdashed backwards w) while i say this though, don't be afraid to be back on this half of the screen-kanji has a very hard time getting in on liz, and if you just sit in his lightning ranges and bait him to do one and dodge it before that 35f startup finishes, it's a free tk laser to take one of his cards (his options are pretty poor to punish that, j.214ab gets hit by the hitbox of laser 80-90% of the time, and he has to jump and lightning again generally)

Didn't know this either. When I dashed out of 5D, I thought "Okay, now I have to somehow run to the other side." Duly noted.

3. dealing with 5a/grab mixups: well, yeah, that's what makes him stupid and viable. he's scary as shit to deal with. sometimes you've just gotta guess whether you need to jump on wakeup or respect the 5a! don't try and find an 'easy way out', try to legitimately play the guessing game and learn a kanji's habits, you'll get way further learning that. just go for a CH 2b if you have a read on a grab or if you want to be safe, upback when you think you know when the grab is coming, block otherwise. either that, or whiff ghastly once you're in awakening and hope he didn't wait on you to do something on wakeup w.i don't think he actually respected your wakeup once the entire vid, so that would have been a free 3-4k! also, like... end of first roundish, he gets a full dial A on you, and then just pressures you again for a quick knockdown, then grabs you on wakeup. it was straight forward 'respect my 5a, respect my 5a, haha just kiddin i grabbed you' grab training. having an answer to kanji's blockstring extensions will also help here--he did bad confirms/blockstrings into 236b a few times on block/hit, which is a 2b for you minimum, i think there's a better punish tho iirc. and finally, going for DP isn't really a good option vs his wakeup/blocksting pressure either, all he has to do is remember you can do it and hold up on reaction and get a j.c for a free 5k.

I tried 2B once, and ended up getting counterhit. I believe 2B is only aerial on the 3rd frame onwards, so meaty grab would still beat it, I'm sure. Meaty 5A is pretty dumb though lol, and at the very end I did try to ghastly wail. Bace & I had a laugh as he saw me mashing the input :v:. I think I got counterhit there too.

4. respecting kanji's j.c when you have him cornered is pretty important too. it's his most reliable air option to beat liz 2b and it's a 5k CH starter for him (unless you're in the air and he doesn't omb) - he hit you with it 2, 3 times in footsies i think. if he whiffs it you can punish that shit for free, especially if he was trying to get a hit confirm and doesn't iad backwards after hitting you with it. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ab5GcqnVKmY#t=83s like here, there's a round right there, tho he baited your burst with 236D instead and got the tech trap. and then you lateteched so he punished it... y'see?) kanji destroys you when he gets in, but if you play it carefully and know how to beat his options, you'll do fine, y'know? especially in pressure, ESPECIALLY in corner, kanji has to make some hard decisions to get out of it, sometimes you can just wait for a sec and reset pressure for free because of it w

5. also, second round, getting hit by his DP when you set up j.b, there's really no reason to ever get hit by DP as liz, let alone with that setup-just jumping back would still get you a hit confirm CH since he blindly woke up DP and a tight enough blockstring to pressure. :V You have the most tools out of everyone in the game to avoid that DP hitting you, so yea!

J.B was an accident. I wanted to to air turn j.A, I believe my hands fucked up. Kinda like how I did that j.C > air dash j.C. That was the wrong button as well. Are you saying that Liz blockstrings are right? The cohesion is a tad off here, but if you mean that, then 5B is free dp for kanji, so is 5C iirc.

should also get out of that garu as a poke habit-you have 7500 health and you want to do a move that makes you a giant target in hopes of people not knowing the matchup and not supering/dping it to murder you on ch? :< like i said, this guy didn't know the matchup so it worked for you ~3 times, but if he knew better that was a free 4k meterless, 5k meter punish each time you did.

Yeah, this is true. Sometimes it's an okay mix-up option, and other times I use it to bait 2B (Kanji's is slow as shit anyway).

also i wrote this at 7am so sorry if i flubbed a sentence up and it doesn't really make sense. =3=

All my Liz knowledge hath failed me, application-wise.

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Thanks for the lengthy reply, Omex. I owe ya. See bolded.

I've done testing for trying to get meaty grabs to hit liz 2B and tbh i don't think grab ever really beats the startup. Tested with setting liz up at different +/- advantages and using hold button to get the grab out as fast as possible and i couldn't really get grab to beat 2b. It could have unlisted throw invuln on the first 3 frames tbh, there's a few moves on the mook/wiki that have unlisted invinc like that. I'm not 100% on this still?, but still ~90% sure that there isn't really a situation where liz 2b will lose to kanji grabs.

as for the DP thing, the only things liz has that she can poke kanji wih that can be dp'd are like... 2A, J.a, 2b, and throw. anything else either loses you a card at worst (and hten gets you a free punish) or just blows through the DP. Once you get use to it, you can keep spacing on kanji to basically eliminate the threat of DP at all times, especially in the corner. Most of the lizes who play me can land pseudomeaty j.b setups and land literally 1 pixel off of me and the shock wont' get them =3= poking with 2b is pretty legit at neutral since kanji has poor answers to it, but if you're making him guess block/dp vs 2b at neutral that's really, really good for you anyway.

ghastly wail has invuln from the first frame, so it was likely just misinput. bace hits me with it often enough.

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