[P4A] Elizabeth vs Naoto

[Kiba]

Discuss the Naoto matchup here.

Lol.

Punishes:

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:

There are two things that make this match-up really hard:

1) Gunshots. Elizabeth can't explicitly deal with it because Magnetic Blast isn't fast enough to punish on reaction. You literally have nothing to disuade its use so approach patiently, there's no reliable way around it.

2) F-Action. While usually bad in most match-ups this shit is retarded against Elizabeth, but there ARE ways around it. Maragidyne is made useless in neutral and after knockdowns, so don't use it outside of combos (same for B laser). This plus gunshot zoning means that you should always keep Naoto within mid-close range if you can help it. The main problem then is that Naoto needs to be respected in pressure far more than normal because she'll break your persona (or hit you) whenever it's triggered. Here are some mix-ups that I've brainstormed to help get around this:

* 5CC > 214A. This dissuades her from auto-pilot DPing after every block 5CC, and it's air unblockable if she jumps. Two birds with one stone. The main problem is that its hit confirms are weak.

* 5CC > 2C makes the persona eat the F-Action follow-up. At close range, this gives Liz the chance to quickly dash 5CC for a counterhit. Note that 5D vs. F-Action will push Naoto too far to punish.

* 5AA > 9 > A+C > 6 IAD > jA cross-up. If she tries to F-Action through the holes in Liz's block string pressure, this will make the follow-up whiff and leave her vulnerable to CH 5CC > 2C.

* Baiting. Least favorite option because it's pure prediction and therefore unreliable.

[Furanshi]

My friend has a really awesome habit of spamming Naoto's furious action against me. Its not crippling but its very annoying that it beats seemingly everything and I end up losing a lot of persona life. And tips?

[xlolxlolx]

run up to bait it then you get free 6.5k+ ch d garu combo

[TD]

l posted this for XDest a few days ago, but l figured it may be important enough to salvage. let me know what you guys think.

so, fullscreen, i'm waiting for 3 things: gunshots, traps/persona attacks, and r action. gunshots have faster startup than a zio, so instead of trying to stop the shots, i'm holding back to see if you'll shoot so l can find a pattern and slowly advance, or zio. l dont think you can really set traps in this MU, l have an eagle's eye on you so that l can react to traps with zio all the time. lf you get it out though, liz has ways over them. l dont think theyre too good vs her atm. now, that persona hide/sneak attack looks great to get in and also to zone, l'd recommend looking into that. lastly, r action beats all liz's zoning on reaction, particularly sb agi, so i'm baiting it with thanatos pressure, and special attack/whiff normal mixup so that you dont have a reason to 'just do it' x n.

[xlolxlolx]

we can train her to never shoot bullets at mid-close range with d garu air approach

[Elochai]

Is there a way to beat Naoto's j.C? 2B doesn't seem to work, but I may be mistiming it.

[Synthesis]

Is there a way to beat Naoto's j.C? 2B doesn't seem to work, but I may be mistiming it.

Just roll past it unless there is a trap there. Most jump attacks that beat your 2B can be rolled out of.

[Sanity]

Seems like a pretty even matchup from experience,

but Naoto is the only character you cannot do fullscreen Zio against. It is just asking for the counter and get a persona break + some damage.

[Eshi]

Editing this post with information that's actually useful. There are two things that make this match-up really hard:

1) Gunshots. Elizabeth can't explicitly deal with it because Magnetic Blast isn't fast enough to punish on reaction. You literally have nothing to disuade its use so approach patiently, there's no reliable way around it.

2) F-Action. While usually bad in most match-ups this shit is retarded against Elizabeth, but there ARE ways around it. Maragidyne is made useless in neutral and after knockdowns, so don't use it outside of combos (same for B laser). This plus gunshot zoning means that you should always keep Naoto within mid-close range if you can help it. The main problem then is that Naoto needs to be respected in pressure far more than normal because she'll break your persona (or hit you) whenever it's triggered. Here are some mix-ups that I've brainstormed to help get around this:

* 5CC > 214A. This dissuades her from auto-pilot DPing after every block 5CC, and it's air unblockable if she jumps. Two birds with one stone. The main problem is that its hit confirms are weak.

* 5CC > 2C makes the persona eat the F-Action follow-up. At close range, this gives Liz the chance to quickly dash 5CC for a counterhit. Note that 5D vs. F-Action will push Naoto too far to punish.

* 5AA > 9 > A+C > 6 IAD > jA cross-up. If she tries to F-Action through the holes in Liz's block string pressure, this will make the follow-up whiff and leave her vulnerable to CH 5CC > 2C.

* Baiting. This is always my least favorite option because it's pure prediction and therefore unreliable.

My next project is figuring out how to properly space oneself against Naoto's pokes. I need a lot more experience with this match-up still.

[Synthesis]

Editing this post with information that's actually useful. There are two things that make this match-up really hard:

1) Gunshots. Elizabeth can't explicitly deal with it because Magnetic Blast isn't fast enough to punish on reaction. You literally have nothing to disuade its use so approach patiently, there's no reliable way around it.

2) F-Action. While usually bad in most match-ups this shit is retarded against Elizabeth, but there ARE ways around it. Maragidyne is made useless in neutral and after knockdowns, so don't use it outside of combos (same for B laser). This plus gunshot zoning means that you should always keep Naoto within mid-close range if you can help it. The main problem then is that Naoto needs to be respected in pressure far more than normal because she'll break your persona (or hit you) whenever it's triggered. Here are some mix-ups that I've brainstormed to help get around this:

* 5CC > 214A. This dissuades her from auto-pilot DPing after every block 5CC, and it's air unblockable if she jumps. Two birds with one stone. The main problem is that its hit confirms are weak.

* 5CC > 2C makes the persona eat the F-Action follow-up. At close range, this gives Liz the chance to quickly dash 5CC for a counterhit. Note that 5D vs. F-Action will push Naoto too far to punish.

* 5AA > 9 > A+C > 6 IAD > jA cross-up. If she tries to F-Action through the holes in Liz's block string pressure, this will make the follow-up whiff and leave her vulnerable to CH 5CC > 2C.

* Baiting. This is always my least favorite option because it's pure prediction and therefore unreliable.

My next project is figuring out how to properly space oneself against Naoto's pokes. I need a lot more experience with this match-up still.

To be fair, you should always bait until you're positive you've gained respect. And even then.

does j.B eat her F-Action shot? Haven't played Naotos that F-Action a lot.

[Eshi]

To be fair, you should always bait until you're positive you've gained respect. And even then.

does j.B eat her F-Action shot? Haven't played Naotos that F-Action a lot.

5B and jB are both treated as projectiles, and other projectiles will cancel out the shot. However it requires the cards to be in front of Naoto when she does the shot instead of behind, which will very rarely be the case since it goes through her during F-Action.

[TD]

5c(1) 2c is also good against naoto. besides being one of liz's more potent mixups, the 2c will completely whiff naoto should she f action, which means 5cc ch for free. it also beats mashing attempts obv.

otherwise, stall, gain your wind sp, chill out because fullscreen you're going to be waiting alot for the right to to dig into her relentlessly. and that opportunity doesn't come by often. which means, no risky business. if you ever have to chase her, more than likely you've already lost that round.

beware of ex roll when naoto's back is to the corner. it's an instant momentum shift should you get hit or even block, but it's better to block. l haven't tested what can be done about this, perhaps she can be thrown or the bullets jumped.

every little hit counts - for both characters. if you can mop her ass quickly, do so. it can very hard to remain patient and vigilant sometimes, but remember, time is on our side, and liz can layer on damage real thick.

[Synthesis]

5C(1) 2C as strong mixup.... Hmmm. Can't they just hold 7 and get out for free? I really don't like dealing with Naoto jumping in at me, so I don't like her jumping. I think I'm going to start doing 5C(1) OMC (1) for mixup in the corner. If they jump, I can 2B, if they sit still, I can throw, if they mash, I can 2C. Needs more testing.

[TD]

they could hold 7, but they'll be less likely to do it if they're expecting 5c(2) mixup. remember that if you can get the foe to respect 5c(2), you are allowed to j.d or j.c their jump. no it's not the greatest thing ever i'll agree, but at least it's something

l played xntrikcat yesterday, very good naoto player. 12 games and the score was 6-6 at the end. this MU is sooooo weird when you know it. you really stay fullscreen doing nothing in 10 second increments. it's like, liz cant do anything but gain meter; naoto can zone all day but with extremely meh reward, and neither char can get in against the other if played right.

oh, d garu (3) plows through naoto's traps... it won me a few rounds once l realized. d garu worked pretty well last night.

[TD]

some more stuff.

-fuck ex roll. seriously. how to beat. as stated before, this move is an instant game changer in/near corner. letting naoto get away with it will not be tolerated. there must be a way to reliably blow her up for it.

-never ever b zio. ever. a zio is very weak but usable. common knowledge l suppose.

-poison is such a blessing in this MU. get it, keep in by stalling and blocking. the damage is low but very reliable, and will force naoto to get aggressive. it's alot easier to stop an approaching naoto, albeit risky.

[Putin]

It looks like Naoto using 236x in blockstrings shouldn't be viable, the Naoto I play does use it though and I can't find a way to punish it.

A version is 10 frames so I don't think we can do anything about it other than DP, and if you let her do it she can proceed to cancel it into a quick throw or just shoot you if she thinks you'll attempt a throw break.

She can also play it safe and use B followup which is no trouble for me itself, but it feels like I'm still at a big disadvantage when I'm in the corner.

[GBAer64]

Ho boy... This match up is a strange mix between the waiting game or a really fun one. Overall it depends on the Naoto you play.

A noticeable thing I see Naoto players do is that if they have 25 SP and they've just been knocked down, they'll use the SB version of Aim or as people call it the roll. This is a move to be wary of since it's often used for tricking and knowing how Elizabeth has such low HP, it's best to watch out and be wary of the SP gauge at all times when fighting Elizabeth because if she had what it takes to use Raid after the roll then a good 40% of Liz's health is gonna walk out the door or possibly more. Overall always take a glance at Naoto during a match with her since the SB Aim could change the match up such as if you were in the corner and she used it. Now you're susceptible to corner pressure that can be utterly destructive if the Naoto player knows the SMP loop or anything close to it.

Now onto some other things that are much less needed to be careful of.

For regular aim. The A version is most of the time just used to start shooting, not much else there really. :/ The B version however is a little...useful for them to an extent. But that'll be explained later.

And how the match will play out will be entirely dependent on how much Naoto likes using Aim since if there's one that's spam happy about shooting. The match will only be a long, boring waiting game for you that'll most likely end up with you winning. That is if you have the patience to know when to strike in. If a Naoto's like that then Magarudyne is a helpful move since you can easily win on an Air to Ground approach, taking out the bullets and also taking some damage while now having an up close approach. Usually a spam happy Naoto character is also FA (Furious Attack or DP as most of you call it) happy. Which means whenever they tech or recover, they're probably going to use it so just wait for a bit before unleashing an all out attack (Both the universal move in the game or a devastating combo).

Double Fangs

This move is often used for the rushdown moments/types of Naoto players. It's best to learn to properly block Double fangs, especially for the A version that comes really fast. For those that fight Naoto and haven't gotten used to blocking it yet. I believe you can FA the B and SB version after the first hit. As for the A version, you're just gonna have to block it since it's too fast for a counter. And when I say to learn to block the Double Fangs I mean learn to just block it in muscle memory since Double Fangs is a move that is often used in pressure. I myself am a Naoto player also and when I use pressure (which I'm not too-too good at but it's a form of it). I often chain Naoto's sweep with Double Fangs (A) for up to 3 times (almost infinite when trapped in the corner). It's a basic thing I do even though I don't see too many Naoto players use it but I'd think it's still best to know how to block.

Also for the Fate Gauge. YOU MUST RESPECT IT. If you're fate gauge is all the way down to zero and you get grabbed, auto comboed, Double Fanged (B or SB), are open in the air, ect. while Naoto has 50 SP. You'll be finished for good because that's a ticket straight to Hamaoon or Mudoon.

The Anti-Air Pistol alpha and beta version I can't truly say much about being careful about them since Naoto can only whiff it or use it in a combo because if she were to use alpha or beta. You could punish it with Ziodyne (Though it's much harder punishing the alpha version and the beta versions a bit higher so hop up to Naoto's height and then punish).

The true menace that isn't an I.K. (Instant Kill). Would be Raid. This move is both favorable for Naoto in neutral and combos since she can chain it up with other Raid's and such. As for if she used it on Neutral. Whether it's favorable for her is entirely based on how fast she can react and what move you use for a counter. A slow one will lead to you getting shot or Critical Shot. But if you did a poke and proceeded with a basic combo or worse then it's to your favor. However Naoto can also use Raid as a way to shoot you while you use Ziodyne or Maragidyne (SB especially) from full screen. So make sure like before you respect her from full screen especially if she has 50 SP while in Awakening she can just throw it out and take you out with the flames.

Also for Naoto a trick that I know (though I don't think many other Naoto players know it themselves) is that when she uses the instant kill. She can change the position of Sukuna Hikona by holding Left (4) or Right (6) and thus change the position of ALL the crosshairs. You'll probably have time to react to be able to get out. Though that's not guaranteed all the time so watch out for this little tidbit trick Naoto's can use. The change in position is signified when Sukuna Hikona appears in the far left or right according to the respective direction held. I've actually scored a few IK's as Naoto myself with this so I'm gonna guess you'll need to be careful still.

As for our own Instant Kill I can't dictate a specific move that would give you a free instant kill within just that one activation like Aigis's bullets or such. I suppose you could throw Megidolaon out on a Trigger Happy Naoto if they're that spammy though that's still dangerous since only a braindead Naoto would do something that stupid. I would recommend using your IK when Naoto uses double fangs because a rule with the IK is that in any match. The hits before in that match add up together. Meaning that if Naoto used both kicks on double fangs with you. Then you only need to get hit one more time WITHIN THE SAME ROUND to activate your IK. Again. This effect is only if it's on the same round. The added hits will deplete if a new round comes. Perhaps Anti-Air Pistol a could be a move you could IK but you'll have to be good at sniffing it out.

I'll come back if there's anything I realized I missed or if I got new data to give out.

[Elochai]

I just wanna add some things.

A noticeable thing I see Naoto players do is that if they have 25 SP and they've just been knocked down, they'll use the SB version of Aim or as people call it the roll. This is a move to be wary of since it's often used for tricking and knowing how Elizabeth has such low HP, it's best to watch out and be wary of the SP gauge at all times when fighting Elizabeth because if she had what it takes to use Raid after the roll then a good 40% of Liz's health is gonna walk out the door or possibly more. Overall always take a glance at Naoto during a match with her since the SB Aim could change the match up such as if you were in the corner and she used it. Now you're susceptible to corner pressure that can be utterly destructive if the Naoto player knows the SMP loop or anything close to it.

If the Naoto player is doing 214AB on their wake-up, meaty 2C beats it clean. As you said, it's pretty much a roll, which meaty 2C also beats.

As for our own Instant Kill I can't dictate a specific move that would give you a free instant kill within just that one activation like Aigis's bullets or such. I suppose you could throw Megidolaon out on a Trigger Happy Naoto if they're that spammy though that's still dangerous since only a braindead Naoto would do something that stupid. I would recommend using your IK when Naoto uses double fangs because a rule with the IK is that in any match. The hits before in that match add up together. Meaning that if Naoto used both kicks on double fangs with you. Then you only need to get hit one more time WITHIN THE SAME ROUND to activate your IK. Again. This effect is only if it's on the same round. The added hits will deplete if a new round comes. Perhaps Anti-Air Pistol a could be a move you could IK but you'll have to be good at sniffing it out.

Not that it's too useful because this hardly happens, but Naoto's 236236A can be IK'd for free by Liz. 236236A can be OMC'd though and Liz IK doesn't catch it then. I think Liz gets Hama for free too if Naoto doesn't hold back.

[GBAer64]

I just wanna add some things.

If the Naoto player is doing 214AB on their wake-up, meaty 2C beats it clean. As you said, it's pretty much a roll, which meaty 2C also beats.

Not that it's too useful because this hardly happens, but Naoto's 236236A can be IK'd for free by Liz. 236236A can be OMC'd though and Liz IK doesn't catch it then. I think Liz gets Hama for free too if Naoto doesn't hold back.

I think that's what I said though. But thanks for telling me she could One More Cancel it though since I didn't even know that! Derp Hamaoon could work but if you want it to specifically work. I think having 1 or 2 hits before it happens would work. I'm not entirely sure so let me test it first.

Also for new info I forgot to talk about the Megido traps that Naoto has in her disposal.

Megido Traps

Like Naoto herself the Megido Traps can vary from helping to create or reset pressure, or in her other strategy, to keep her safe from approaches. The latter of which not being used very often because Elizabeth's way of zoning is by moving the opponent around herself rather then doing the actual legwork. Because of this Naoto's traps only really work for pressure or for that crazy SMP loop combo that I could never do. If it's for being safe it wouldn't really work for the air or ground since Magarudyne just completely mows through it like grass. It would only be in the case where we forget that a trap is in a specific place where you could be hit during a neutral game but that's much more rare then you think (for me at least).

Also one move that should be given some consideration to would be Naoto's 5D. It's often used as a little way to sneak in an attack while we're fullscreen pressuring/pushing away. It's not likely that Sukuna Hikona actually hits but just be mindful whenever it's thrown out.

Also if ever in the situation of air to air combat with Naoto. Elizabeth wins hands down with a royal straight flush (wonder if anyone got the reference) with her J.B. Which extends far enough to not get easily hit by Naoto's own J.B. But even then Naoto can possibly win with her J.C. since it's a much faster attack that's like a poke. It rarely happens but there's the moments where it does win over the surplus of options you have in your favor for this MatchUp. However if Naoto's in the air and your in the ground. It's likely that her J.C. will win against 2.B. since as stated before it is fast enough to be almost poke-worthy. However that's the only option Naoto can really pull well. She can air dash to you and use a string of J.A. or J.B. but it's not too hard to block it since you just have to block 2-3 hits then your fine. Though it's ok if you have trouble remembering to block just a bit longer for that high-low psych-out. Just remember to practice blocking that string since it could take a lot of pain away for the Ground to Air MatchUp against Naoto.

Speaking of string mixups I remember times where a Naoto player would use 5AA and then use an All Out Attack (AoA for an acronym) which somehow is effective against people. Just be sure to not block down if you're blocking her auto-combo attack no matter how much it's implanted in your muscle memory.