[P4A] Naoto vs. Yu

[ludwig van]

Discuss the Yu matchup here!

[Sqwirl]

this dude be sliding and says screw your traps.

And I'm not sure if its his 5b or something but that thing has reach...only thing I can do is go in from the air...but then I get AA'd.

His slide goes under my shots so I'm just like damn. Only way I see is to bait DP's and keep momentum.

[Zeromus_X]

Slide is annoying but it's punishable on block if they don't have meter. I have more problems with the A version Belial Edge-looking dive attack he does in the air. Sometimes I try to 2A or 5A out but I get CH somehow when it's supposedly "unsafe", or they'll be one of those smartasses that B+D afterwards.

But yeah. Be mobile and airborne, but always respect and try to bait his 2B, that move is ridiculous. For his other ground pokes, they are good, but not as retarded as Mitsuru's so don't be afraid to fight back with 5B, 5C, and sweep.

If they try to Zio/stunedge from fullscreen, you can B+D > 6X to counter it on reaction and break a Persona primer, just be aware that they can yomi it and cancel into Ziodyne if they have meter.

[Ichipoo]

Just came back from my friend's house who plays a decent Yu. In general, be unpredictable with how and when you lay traps and while pressuring with Aim from a far. When you're on the defensive end, you want to analyze how they pressure you and when do they jump in. If they start getting obvious with the jump in j.B, it's a free 2B CH combo for you. However, I don't think you can 2B air air dashed j.B because the tip of the attack will most likely tag you and Naoto's 2B has some short range.

I'm pretty sure you can 2B his 214A as well.

Oh and you have Yu and the corner on knockdown and trying to bait a F-Action, don't backdash, just don't.

[GaoGaoGao]

2B against his 214A is nice to know. Will it work on the B version? Those two moves give me the most problem because they pretty much allow him to ignore traps. Also, the B version is plus on block while the A version is barely negative.

[Ichipoo]

Just tested that 214A/B is punishable by 2B, but due to 2B's short range, you have to hit them before the thrust comes out, or else you'll get CH'd, or worse, FC'd if they used the B version. Perhaps airgrabbing them is safer because you can simply react to it, jump up and CH grab them as opposed to risking it with a 2B since you do have to time it a bit and besides, I don't think you can tech grabs that are registered as Counters can you?

[Sqwirl]

Nah, if it's a counter you can't tech it.

[Teh Umby]

I was watching Bond's Tutorial vid, and he mentioned something useful about the matchup, whereas Yu's Swift Strike will beat out D traps, he'll get hit by the C traps if he attempts it. In that sense, you could probably plant C traps and simply punish whiffed Raging Lions if he takes that route to get around.

If they try to Zio/stunedge from fullscreen, you can B+D > 6X to counter it on reaction and break a Persona primer, just be aware that they can yomi it and cancel into Ziodyne if they have meter.

I think he can only Zio > Ziodyne from midscreen and have it punish you. If I'm doing this correctly, the shot goes straight through Ziodyne at fullscreen. Probably a discrepancy in timing, but there are instances when it'll shoot through it and Naoto's left unharmed and times when both players get counter hit.

Ah, never mind, I delayed the C super and tested the D super this time. It'll punish the counter cleanly if timed right.

[Doonpa]

Basically, zoning Narukami is a pain in the butt because of swift strike and raging lion. Setting a C-trap down right in front of you is so important in this match up. Kinda lame how Raging Lion just beats out your traps and is way too hard to get a 2B AA against so you'll be relying on forcing the raging lions to whiff or flat out DP them. What makes this match up even worse is once you get knocked down because lolholdallthismixup. This matchup is fairly zzz if the Narukami only does really simple mixup, but if you are fighting someone like SKD then this fight really becomes a pain because you will not block him and you will die fairly fast due to Naoto's low health. Usually if you block the initial mixup which is usually j.bb or empty jump low for example, you can usually roll out if Narukami attempts to use Izanagi for a delayed roll mixup and what not. If its a delayed AD over style mixup, you run the risk of rolling towards Narukami, so stuff like that requires you to kinda block and hope you guessed right. Another nice thing is that Narukami does have the same problem with naoto as he does with Chie which is that he is susceptible to getting low profiled. Naoto can go under 5B, 5C, and Zios which is pretty nice so if you see Narukami doing the same strings involving those buttons, instant block and mash him. Or if he is simply throwing them out there in neutral, just hit him and force him to use 2B which has way more recovery and much better to whiff punish for Naoto.

Also, safe jump into the fuzzy guard is da besssssssss. If they get scared of it and decide to start late teching, pretend you are Chie and do delayed AD mixup for lols. They'll probably not try to DP if you've blown them up enough for DPing.

[Ichipoo]

Decided to post here out of boredom but I figured this will be useful for other members and lurkers here.

I just fought my friend who plays a very disrespectful Narukami in the sense that he will slide the moment he sees me doing unsafe shit such as pulling out my gun or calling out 5D and knows exactly when to DP. He also grabs me out of my C trap Oki even when I try to jump up to avoid it so much to the point where I don't even attempt Oki against this guy anymore and it forces me to outshine him in the neutral game which is pretty annoying for me. I'm also eating more 2Bs than usual.

Perhaps it's because I'm sort of off it these past few days but possible solutions could be to use C traps more, and to especially place them at more strategic places and not go derp and place them anywhere. I just now need to know where exactly to place them, perhaps near the ground would work. I would also say one somewhat high in the air but then again B Raging Lion would fix that, but it's punishable. As for my friend's tendency to slide, that could easily be fixed with just blocking low. I just need to remember the appropriate punish for blocking it though. It's also important to note that even from a far, if you tag them with bullets and you call out 5D right away, if they have at least 25 SP, they can SB slide and tag you, which of course makes it important to lay C traps at the right spots.

As for trying to avoid the 2B AA, maybe if you're expecting it, you can try a somewhat late double jump into j.C or D trap?

Also on the subject of defense, it would be nice if we know exactly which parts of his pressure to escape and how because I honestly don't see Naoto trying to outpoke him out of it unless someone can show me otherwise.

And lastly, on the subject of my friend not giving a fuck about Naoto's Oki and grabbing me out of it after sweep > knockdown > C trap, perhaps this is because I'm just a tad bit too slow on the execution and/or a spacing issue? Perhaps I need to be up close first in order for it to work? Maybe one of you guys know.

One of these days I'd like to invest in a recording device, record them and stream them so we can have an open discussion about it.

So yeah, obviously this matchup is very annoying for us, especially if the Narukami knows what their doing and/or simply plays like he doesn't give a fuck/goes all out and doesn't show fear like my friend does but it's still winnable though. We just have to be the better player.

EDIT: Forgot to talk about the neutral game but how do you guys approach this? I honestly try to lame it out and pretend I'm Yosuke by laying traps everywhere when I can, but again, I should do better to lay them at better positions as well as learning when it's safe and not safe to lay traps.

[Zeromus_X]

About C trap oki: Make sure you're doing it in the corner; trap oki won't work midscreen because you can't run up and set the trap in time before they can hit you. I like to do Sweep > 5D oki, or 5AAA > safejump setups midscreen instead. After ending your corner combo with 236A, make sure to hold D to cancel aim as soon as possible, then set the C trap. Since the first hit Narukami's DP is air unblockable, C trap > jump won't work to bait his DP, but C trap > backdash or IAD backwards will work. After they start respecting this, then you can start using meaty 5A to force them to block or get combo'd by the trap if they mash or try to roll, then start doing actual mixups with the C trap explosion. You can also mix it up with D trap > meaty throw oki to really blow up rolls, since you can throw them before the D trap explodes.

As for the neutral game, I always like to set at least a C trap on ground level in front of me as soon as I can get to fullscreen distance. I like to camp behind it and see how the Narukami player reacts to it first. C trap on ground level eats slide for free, so if they think that's a good option they can eat a CH trap combo into the corner. Some Narukamis like to use Zio when they see you setting up fullscreen instead. I usually IB it first to see if they'll adjust their position or just fire out more Zios in an attempt to "zone". If they keep firing, DP them and break a free Persona card every time, or A shot through it. Sometimes less is more with traps and gunshots, I try to only fire when I know I'm safe fullscreen, and only set 1 C trap and enough D traps to make them cautious from approaching on ground.

EDIT: About punishing slide on block, dash 5A should work. Autocombo or 5AA > 5C > 236B... to punish.

Once the Narukami player starts trying to approach from the air, you'll probably have to deal with B Raging Lion. B Lion is annoying (WHY is it +3 on block?), but if they really think they can just get in through the air for free with this move, anti-air it with DP for their troubles. If it's hard to react to, or they're using it more intelligently, try running under them or rolling instead.

I find most of the lower level Narukami players will get frustrated when they can't just do whatever they want to get in, and you can pretty much get free wins with good movement and punishing their unsafe maneuvers. Higher level Narukamis however, will use movement of their own and understand how much they can bully you with their normals. At this point you have to interact with them more, know how to move, and really have to know what buttons to press at the right time. Baiting 2B is pretty much a requirement for the matchup, as well as properly spaced 5B or sweep. Just try to keep the neutral game as long as you can; remember, if you have the life lead, there's no need to commit to anything, so just play it lame and build meter.

Defense in this matchup isn't very fun. When blocking against Narukami, I usually block low, and watch for highs, while looking out for a couple things:

-Sweep (blocked) > raw 5D. Punish them every time for not confirming properly into sweep. IAD jAAA > mash A combo will deal about 1k and build ~30 meter. You can also react with dash 5AAA... but if you don't react quick enough, you may get CH so I prefer IADing to punish.

-Wakeup crossups. This might be a netplay-only problem, but a lot of Narukamis will attempt to cross you up on wakeup to bait our DP. Yomi airthrow them to really fuck with their head until they learn how to safejump properly.

-214A usage. 214A is an overhead that's often used as a throw bait, or simply to continue pressure with 5DD. 214A is difficult to punish on normal block, but a lot of Narukamis just assume you'll continue blocking after it, or don't confirm whether you get hit by it or not. If you normal block, mash DP if they try to reset their pressure afterwards, until they start baiting it. If you IB, 5A to get out of there. 214B and 214AB are all plus unfortunately, so you pretty much have to accept it if you block them.

-5DD. The followup to 5D is very important for Narukami's pressure. It makes a lot of his stuff safe and covers him while he can do crossups, empty-jump mixups, or simply reset his pressure. However, it's also the visual cue that a mixup is coming, and taking note of when they use it can make it much easier to react to his mixup. Izanagi isn't Ada, he provides cover, but doesn't actually hit high or low, so only focus on Narukami after you see them use 5DD.

If you get hit by his mixup, try not to panic. Be patient and try to save your resources. Even if he combos you, he still has to go back into oki at least 1-2 more times before they can go for the kill. In this time, you're still building meter or burst from their combo, so just try to hold off as long as you can. The minimum resources you need to safely escape pressure is 50 meter and a Burst, so you can Counter Assault + One More Burst, which will always work if Izanagi is still active. If you have 100 meter, CA + OMC will work, and in Awakening, wakeup Raid + OMB is a guaranteed way to kick Izanagi in the face (also sometimes the Yu player will get hit by the OMB for a combo which is hilarious).

Hopefully this all makes sense, I just kind of garbled out my thoughts on the matchup since I've been playing my friend's Narukami lately. If you have a cool head and focus on the neutral game this matchup doesn't seem so bad on paper. I definitely have more fun against Narukami than against Teddie at any rate. Unfortunately most of my experience against Narukami is on netplay since we only have 1 person who plays him decently in my scene.