[P4A] Yu Narukami vs Mitsuru Kirijo

[MashThat5A]

Discuss the 5A matchup here

[VR-Raiden]

5A matchup

lol

Block punishes vs Mitsuru:

B+D

- CH 214A

- FC 2C

- air hit CH 5B/2B

- ground hit CH 5A

- backturn IAD j.A

Note: 5A will punish if they didn't cancel to Bufudyne super on block, and also recovers fast enough to block/roll/super if they did Bufudyne super cancel. Loses to Myriad Arrows. backturn IAD j.A punishes for no cancel and dodges either super.

A+B

- (dash) CH 5B

Note: In crouch state during recovery.

Droit (IB at not max range)

- CH 5A

Bufudyne

- dash CH 5C

- FC 2C

- (during flash) A+C > CH 214A/FC 2C

- (during flash) Ziodyne/Cross Slash/Myriad Truths

Myriad Arrows (after kick)

- CH 214A

- FC 2C

- (during flash) Ziodyne/Cross Slash/Myriad Truths

Niflheim

- CH 214A

- FC 214B

- FC 2C

- (during flash) Ziodyne/Cross Slash/Myriad Truths

I'll edit this if something's wrong or needs to be added.

Added IB Droit > 5A, and B+D > air hit CH 5B/2B for if you're worried about cancel to Bufudyne on block.

[Killey]

I think from my own experiences as well as what I've read around this match up is 5-5. After narrowly winning a tournament against Mitsuru, I'm beginning to hate it greatly but I suspect Teddy and Aigis are going to piss me off the most later on. Anyways, here's the information I've gathered so far and I need some help banging out other ideas on dealing with Mitsuru.

Instant blocking seems to be your best friend in this match up for reasons I'll list as I go on.

This becomes a heavily footsie based game because both characters have ways to control each others air approaches. In the footsie game your tools are composed of primarily 5B, 5C, 2C, Swift Strike while Mitsuru has 5A, 2A, 5B, 4B, 6B, and Droit. The biggest caution for Yu is that 5C and 2C are slow and leave Izanagai out for an extended period of time making them susceptible to Mitsuru's 5A or A Driot.

Mitsuru's 5A is a bit slower than Yu's 5B (at least according to Lord Knight), however, it out ranges your 5B so you can't take it head on. Her 5A also has lengthy recovery time so if she whiffs 5A in your face you can actually whiff punish with dash 5B. If your opponent is poking at max range with 5A you can actually use 214C/D/CD to shrink your hit box and beat it. It's not something I would go to often as if it gets baited you're going to eat big damage. If you instant block 5A and the opponent stops their offense there you can punish with 5B or if you make the read they'll push the offense you can throw out 5C it'll counter hit whatever normal they use. If they opt to do 5AAAAA... if you instant block the last hit at any part they stop the chain you can always punish with 5B.

The tricky part is when they start canceling 5A strings, 5B, 4B, or 6B strings into 2AB. Mitsuru's 2AB can also be held down to cancel the trip, which gives her ways to set up frame traps and tick throws. It leaves Mitsuru in a counter hit state but she's safe on block but if you instant block it you can punish with 5A (the timing is weird but you have to delay the 5A after the instant block) and it'll be a counter hit. Her 2AB is a bit slow on start up so if you anticipate that the opponent will do 2AB in a string you can actually just BD it even if they decide to feint the 2AB. I think it's possible to BD her 2AB on reaction but obviously this is easier said than done in tournament pressure.

Now this can go one step further where she can Droit right after 2AB to catch you pressing buttons for a counter hit. Droit on counter hit is not something you want because she can get good damage from it into pressure. If it's B Droit it ground slides and in the corner you're going to eat a 3-4k combo. Droit leaves Mitsuru at slight frame disadvantage (-2 for A version) but it's safe on block. If you instant block it though you can punish with 5A into whatever. Again, if you make the read that they'll try to push the offense you can throw out 5B instead and it'll counter hit whatever normal she decides to through out. Keep in mind, however, that if Mitsuru anticipates this she can either BD or Bufudyne after.

5C and 2C in the footsie is incredibly risky for the Persona but if the opponent gets comfortable with your 5B range you can use 5C or 2C (at further ranges) to start countering their pokes. Some of this will need to be done pro-actively rather than re-actively but landing a counter hit or fatal counter 2C can lead into huge damage.

Mitsuru's 5B, 4B, and 6B crush lows and hurt a lot on counter hit especially if you're close or in the corner. Some of Mitsuru's frame trap game involves this normal and she can put you into a block string and use 5B, 4B, or 6B to go for a counter hit or fatal counter. She can charge any of these normals for extended hit stun or cause fatal counter on full charge. This being said the charging takes some time and she can be hit out of it but the question is if you want to push buttons given her other offensive options. 5B leaves her safe on block and she can either cancel into Droit or gatling into 2AB, which beats out any counter pokes if you instant block it. You could still go for a BD but there's some obvious risks associated to that.

When getting rush down by Mitsuru you kind of just have to take it and block. This is why instant block is helpful because not only are you building extra meter but it allows you to punish certain strings or patterns from your opponent. There's a bit of reading required in some situations though but it's rough if you're in the corner. It's a pick and choose your moments because if you guess wrong you're eating a fatal counter combo into 3-4k damage and that's something you don't want.

[VR-Raiden]

Droit leaves Mitsuru at slight frame disadvantage but it's safe on block. If you instant block it though you can punish with 5A into whatever.

Thanks for all the info, adding this punish to the list.

[tastylumpia]

So did some testing with blockstring into charged sweep (whiff). Generally players go for a throw mixup afterwards on a blocking opponent. This actually gets beat by A mash. In fact even if Mitsuru does charged sweep into immediate block she can get counterhit on the recovery frames of the sweep whiff. But the opponent has to time it immediately and has to guess that sweep will be charged otherwise they get FCed by the regular sweep followup. The best counter option for this blockstring is actually to throw the startup of sweep (there's a gap between 5B, 2AB). The gap is large enough to get a throw counter but small enough that A mash will get counterhit by the sweep. However charged B into sweep has enough blockstun to not be throw punishable.

Reposted from Mitsuru thread

214C at tip range is safe on block and will low profile her jab bullshit.

You can safejump her DP but you're limited to frontal options, all the crossup oki gets beat by stupid C+D hitbox. Should be more than enough with his multiple high low fuzzy options anyway.

Like Killey mentioned you should be careful about Persona calls, so limit the use of your C button. Mitsu's probably the best in the game at primer breaking. Also none of that raw 5D in blockstrings shit, you shouldn't be doing that anyway.

If they're doing braindead 5AAA into droit, just throw her after droit, IB or not.

When in doubt, mash C+D.

[Killey]

Raw 5D in block strings means your opponent gets a free CH Droit into pressure or a full combo if your back is towards the corner provided they're paying attention.

Mitsuru's BD has a large hit box but it's slower than Yu's and can be safe jumped and chicken blocked (past the initially unblockable pre-jump frames). You can definitely still go for cross-ups and other mix-up options during 5D oki but you gotta properly space yourself to get the right timing. Most people do 2A, 2A, 2B (2 hits), 5B, 2AB and then try something like dash quick escape 5DD or dash jump air turn j.B. At the range after 2AB the time it takes for you to dash to set up the cross over or cross up has a gap that lets the opponent BD. If you do something like 2A, 2A, 2B (1 hit), 2AB you don't push the opponent far away. During the quick escape mix-up the string is tight because they're still blocking 5D by the time you get to the other side. In the dash jump air turn j.B situation it becomes a safe jump setup. If you do nothing during the cross up you can just chicken block and punish them on recovery (provided they don't do a super after wards).

You should always be weary of BD's anyways and do some baiting to figure out how the opponent plays like. Yu definitely has a lot of fancier and trickier mix-up options during 5D oki but a lot them leave gaps that are susceptible to a BD. Have to do the conditioning early and figure it out from there but this is more general strategy then vs Mitsuru.

[MashThat5A]

There is not a chance in hell Mitsuru 5A is slower than 5B. Where did you see this?

[VR-Raiden]

There is not a chance in hell Mitsuru 5A is slower than 5B. Where did you see this?

Probably from this vid AndyG posted cuz I heard it too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p_n9pgAK94&t=7m50s

but I think he meant to say "her 5A is a little faster than his 5B" based on what he's talking about.

[Killey]

Yeah, feel free to correct or challenge any of the information. I'm not an expert but I want people to gather as much information as possible as this is probably one of the characters that people will be facing the most later on.

Mitsuru gimmicks to be aware of:

-Blocked BD, land, Super - This is a gimmick similar to Yu's Ziodyne anytime during or after his BD; however, this is not a super cancel like Yu's as she doesn't lose blue life by doing this. It somehow cuts her recovery time from a BD down and both of her supers have start up invincibility. The odd part is that she can only do this if you block the BD. If the BD whiffs then you can go for a max punish ground combo. You can punish the blocked BD with 5B before she can do a super but the timing seemed really tight. It's something I wouldn't risk if they are desperate or have 100 meter to OMC the super for safety. In those situations it's best to 2B immediately after blocking the BD and go for a air combo instead.

-Forward Throw (Corner), Bufudyne - If you neutral or air tech backwards you'll eat Bufudyne because you air teched and Bufudyne is air unblockable. You'll need to air tech forwards immediately in order to escape this tech trap.

-CH combo into B Droit ground slide to corner, Bufudyne - What happens is that B Droit causes a ground slide. If it carries to the corner and the opponent is close enough they can do Bufudyne after wards. If you tech immediately from Droit you end up air teching and get hit by Bufudyne since it's air unblockable. If you don't tech Bufudyne will OTG. If you tech late you will avoid the Bufudyne and be able to punish the opponent.

[Kikuichimonji]

Is the frame advantage on droit spacing specific? If I IB non-EX Droit, is 5A free?

[Killey]

Is the frame advantage on droit spacing specific? If I IB non-EX Droit, is 5A free?

A Droit is -2 on block and you recovery from a grounded instant block 2f faster, which should put A droit at -4. I've already tested point blank IB A Droit and it is a free 5A punish.

B Droit is even on block so you can't punish with anything but you can at least challenge her follow ups after instant blocking it.

[tastylumpia]

Is that tech trap as in Mitsuru throwing you into the corner? She gets a full combo from corner throw (no counter required) anyway. Regardless, always be wary about teching into Bufudyne lol.

Mitsuru's standing jab is 7f while Yu's is 5f.

[VR-Raiden]

From what I'm finding all versions of Droit are a free CH 5A on IB if they did it close, but Droit A seems like you can punish it farther too as long as your 5A will reach.

[Killey]

Is that tech trap as in Mitsuru throwing you into the corner? She gets a full combo from corner throw (no counter required) anyway. Regardless, always be wary about teching into Bufudyne lol.

Mitsuru's standing jab is 7f while Yu's is 5f.

Yes, it's her throwing you into the corner. I know she can get a 3k damage from a corner throw combo but I've had people try this on me since they couldn't do it.

[RoKn]

Ok, this matchup is driving me nuts. I haven't been this frustrated for quite a god damn while. It seems like Mitsuru can punish me greatly for the slightest god damn mistake I make, and if I somehow catch her with her pants down, big whoop, it's probably just a 2-4k combo depending if I blow meter. There's no reason for Mitsuru to jump, and if I jump in, I eat a 2B into 3K meterless (Wow, why the hell is it so much more superior to our AA combo?). Waiting to try and catch a droit or BD punish just doesn't cut it, I can't defend forever without a mistake until they screw up on that. I hate this god damn matchup with all of my fury.

[Kikuichimonji]

Ok, this matchup is driving me nuts. I haven't been this frustrated for quite a god damn while. It seems like Mitsuru can punish me greatly for the slightest god damn mistake I make, and if I somehow catch her with her pants down, big whoop, it's probably just a 2-4k combo depending if I blow meter. There's no reason for Mitsuru to jump, and if I jump in, I eat a 2B into 3K meterless (Wow, why the hell is it so much more superior to our AA combo?). Waiting to try and catch a droit or BD punish just doesn't cut it, I can't defend forever without a mistake until they screw up on that. I hate this god damn matchup with all of my fury.

Your 2B combo sucks if it's not doing 3k. You can do a j.c loop, or you can go into 2b -> 5C -> tk j.214AB for more damage. Yes, these only work near the corner, but basically half the screen is 'the corner' for Yu. Also, Yu's 2B seems to have better range than Mitsuru's 2B. Mitsuru can challenge it with j.B but she doesn't really get anything off of it without a psychic OMC or a counter-hit.

You can do almost 5k with a punish combo without the super to follow it up. Punish her uppercut with 214A -> 5C -> 214D -> OMC -> 214B -> dash 5B -> j.C -> j.214B -> 2B -> j.C -> j.214B. If you want to avoid the potential super cancel, hit her out of the air with CH 2B -> 5C -> tk j.214AB -> 2B -> 5B -> j.c -> j.214B -> 2B -> j.c -> j.214A.

Work on your mixups and your damage.

You can keep her out of the air with footsie j.b, on counter-hit you can combo with say 5A 5B j.c -> j.214B (into another loop if she's anywhere near the combo).

Unlike Mitsuru, Yu has actual mixups. Knock her down with sweep -> 5D, and hit her with the cheapest shit you have. Low air dashes, crossups, fake crossups, high/low guessing games, the fuzzy guard, etcetera.

She is down frames after her 5A and Yu's 5B has slightly more range than her 5A. Mitsuru can be absolutely retarded, yes, but just don't challenge her when she has good options. Make her do risky stuff, like sweep/droit your max range 5B and throw out random D to catch your fireballs.

[OmnixTSC]

What variations of 5D oki would you guys recommend against Mitsuru? 2AB>5DD> IAD j. B crossup? I know this shuts down her r-action if spaced correctly, but is there anything else I should be trying in my oki game when I play a good Mitsuru?

[skd]

Your 2B combo sucks if it's not doing 3k. You can do a j.c loop, or you can go into 2b -> 5C -> tk j.214AB for more damage. Yes, these only work near the corner, but basically half the screen is 'the corner' for Yu. Also, Yu's 2B seems to have better range than Mitsuru's 2B. Mitsuru can challenge it with j.B but she doesn't really get anything off of it without a psychic OMC or a counter-hit.

lolwut

[Killey]

You can keep her out of the air with footsie j.b, on counter-hit you can combo with say 5A 5B j.c -> j.214B (into another loop if she's anywhere near the combo).

Wait what? Her j.A is pretty fucking godlike so I don't see how you can challenge it with j.B. I'll experiment in training mode but can you go into more details?

What variations of 5D oki would you guys recommend against Mitsuru? 2AB>5DD> IAD j. B crossup? I know this shuts down her r-action if spaced correctly, but is there anything else I should be trying in my oki game when I play a good Mitsuru?

Use everything in the book but you have to play upon the Mitsuru players weakeness. If I notice they can't block empty jump low I'll do it more then mix it up with a high when they get comfortable.

The one oki option I like for this particular match up is the fuzzy guard setup because it's easier to land it on Mitsuru. Seems like you can really fuck with someone's head if you land a few fuzzy guards because now they have no idea how to react block to your high/low/left/right shit.

[OmnixTSC]

Use everything in the book but you have to play upon the Mitsuru players weakeness. If I notice they can't block empty jump low I'll do it more then mix it up with a high when they get comfortable.

The one oki option I like for this particular match up is the fuzzy guard setup because it's easier to land it on Mitsuru. Seems like you can really fuck with someone's head if you land a few fuzzy guards because now they have no idea how to react block to your high/low/left/right shit.

Ah, okay. I'll try the fuzzies, then. I couldn't really get my oki started against a Mitsuru I faced in a local tournament, so I was wondering how to deal with rather patient players. Thanks for the info!

[Kikuichimonji]

Wait what? Her j.A is pretty fucking godlike so I don't see how you can challenge it with j.B. I'll experiment in training mode but can you go into more details?

Yeah I know j.A is really good but I'm talking about at like half screen where she might want to do something dumb like just air dash j.b. You can just guess and do your own j.b while neutral jumping to stop this. If she does a droit or a sweep or whatever it will whiff and you can combo.

I think if you can get her to start guessing and just doing j.A on a guess that's good for you because you get a 2B combo. Her other obvious option would be to just 2D you, but she can't whiff that.

[Killey]

You could just react to her air dash j.B with 2B anyways though. I guess it's useful to cover the droit and or 2AB options but it seems like a delayed droit would catch the tail end of your j.B though.

New notes on the match up:

-Mitsuru's 2AB goes under and beats 5B, 5C, 5A - She can use 2AB to travel under these normals during the footsie game or if she makes a read that you'll challenge some of her block strings.

-214A (Raging Lion) will CH her 2AB - On the flip side, if you feel she's over abusing 2AB in block strings or during the footsie game you can use A Raging Lion and CH her into a knock down to start the 5D oki or you can do 5C xx 214D into big damage.

[Kikuichimonji]

You could just react to her air dash j.B with 2B anyways though. I guess it's useful to cover the droit and or 2AB options but it seems like a delayed droit would catch the tail end of your j.B though.

I think there might be a max range on forward jump Mitsuru j.B where if you psychic 2B it will work, but if she doesn't hit anything you'll whiff and she can land and 5A you for free. And if you wait for them to get closer to hit 2B I think you'll lose.

[MashThat5A]

Her A moves are better than our B moves. You have to get lucky with a psychic read and then cling to her like glue. This matchup is really dumb.

[Killey]

Her A moves are better than our B moves. You have to get lucky with a psychic read and then cling to her like glue. This matchup is really dumb.

The match up is dumb because it's completely momentum base and whoever can get the other person to the corner.

I feel that when Narukami has momentum it's a constant guessing game with 5D oki. When Mitsuru has momentum it's a struggle of who can read the other person better. Mitsuru has a set of moves that will beat out a set of Narukami moves but there's also a bunch of moves that Narukami has that can counter that. Whoever makes the right reads gets rewarded heavily for it.