[P4A] Yu Narukami vs Mitsuru Kirijo

[Kikuichimonji]

Her A moves are better than our B moves. You have to get lucky with a psychic read and then cling to her like glue. This matchup is really dumb.

I agree the matchup is really dumb because of 5A, but I'm not convinced yet that the matchup is bad (even though I'm losing more than I win). I think it's just extremely polarized, and you need to kill her when you hit her.

You should be able to block Mitsuru almost forever unless she does a rising j.b OMC combo. The throw corner combo is a problem but her only real way to set it up is to do the sweep feint or a OMC.

Maybe when I play Mitsuru in a month or two I'll think it's bad. Right now I think my biggest problem is my mixups and combos off mixups need to be more spot on, and I need to kill Mitsuru for uppercuts. The biggest thing is to know when you are allowed to press buttons, and when you can't. Also, her midscreen damage seems far worse than in the corner, and she has to work to get you there.

Is her 5C unsafe? I got that impression after playing a Mitsuru, I always got a CH 5B on block regardless of the number of hits. I know she can cancel to Droit to mess you up for challenging it.

[XShoryuken 26]

noob question, what is yu's fuzzy guard setup against mitsuru? or what is yu's fuzzy guard setup in general? lol.

[Kikuichimonji]

noob question, what is yu's fuzzy guard setup against mitsuru? or what is yu's fuzzy guard setup in general? lol.

Very deep j.b, double jump forwards j.a. You really can't combo off it without additional D as far as I know.

[XShoryuken 26]

Very deep j.b, double jump forwards j.a. You really can't combo off it without additional D as far as I know.

your name looks odd without seth/akuma under it. =]

[Killey]

I agree the matchup is really dumb because of 5A, but I'm not convinced yet that the matchup is bad (even though I'm losing more than I win). I think it's just extremely polarized, and you need to kill her when you hit her.

You should be able to block Mitsuru almost forever unless she does a rising j.b OMC combo. The throw corner combo is a problem but her only real way to set it up is to do the sweep feint or a OMC.

Is her 5C unsafe? I got that impression after playing a Mitsuru, I always got a CH 5B on block regardless of the number of hits. I know she can cancel to Droit to mess you up for challenging it.

I don't think this match up is bad at all and during the Arcade release the Japanese had this match at 5-5. The match can landslide one way or another but like I said before this is a match of footsies and making the right reads as both sides have answers to each others tools.

Mitsuru's damage output comes from AA's, CH/FC starters and she can only create those opportunities through frame traps. She can't really get a whole lot of damage from stray non-CH grounded hits or without blowing meter. Also, she doesn't have many options to open someone up as her mix-up game is mediocre at best. The only reason she can get those CH/FC starters is because she can put you in extended block stun that at some point you have to challenge her strings in order to get momentum. This is where the mind games come in because all of her frame trap options can be beaten with a move that Narukami has but if you make the wrong read your eating the CH/FC. There's no one encompassing move that beats all of her options.

The same goes for Mitsuru players when we have momentum. They have no encompassing move that beats all of our footsie tools or oki options. Every hit from us either puts her in the corner, does big damage (with meter), or leads into a knockdown into oki. The challenging part is that you have to earn those hits more so than other match ups and Mitsuru has ways to make up for your damage output. The match up reminds me of Litchi vs Jin during the CT days.

I would never challenge a blocked 5C because she has a ton of things she can cancel at any point that can lead into high damage if you push a button at the wrong time. It's best to just instant block it out (on a good Mitsuru player) and wait for an ideal opening. If they cancel into droit and you IB it, it's a free 5A punish into a knockdown for 5D oki.

[Kikuichimonji]

Is her sweep plus? If you prevent her from doing blockstrings from Droit, I don't see how she can extend blockstrings safely besides whiffing sweep feint.

your name looks odd without seth/akuma under it. =]

Robo 5K is way trollier than Akuma or Seth ever could be.

[Killey]

Is her sweep plus? If you prevent her from doing blockstrings from Droit, I don't see how she can extend blockstrings safely besides whiffing sweep feint.

Her sweep is safe on block but punishable on IB with 5A (timing is weird though) but since she can cancel into droit it makes you scared to try and punish it. What I was trying to get at before is that she can keep you blocking by making you afraid to push buttons with her frame trap options and her significant damage output.

[Kikuichimonji]

What I've learned about about this matchup:

• You can't challenge Mitsuru 5A with pokes
  
• You can't challenge Mitsuru j.b with 2B
  
• You can't challenge Mitsuru j.a with j.b
  
• 5D has a significant dead zone where it can't hit you if you're too close
  
• C slide/D slide will always beat 5A unless she starts her 5A faster than your slide. C slide can start up even after her 5A. On block C slide is not in counterhit so if she blocks it the best she can do is 5A > stuff. You lose a primer though. There is a range where C slide actually cannot be punished by 5A, but it's WAY far out.
  
• Mitsuru's 4/5/6 B will fatal counter your slide 100% consistently. D slide will trade but she gets to combo anyway.
  
• Her low options are worse than her overhead options when she has an ice shield out or she has 50 meter to OMC j.b. Her only lows are 2A and sweep. She can get a combo off sweep but it's pretty slow so you should be able to block high, and then react low. At the range she wants to be at, which is 5A range, she can only really do 2A > A droit as a low.
  
• None of her A or B attacks are jump cancellable on block besides 2B.
  
• If they do j.b without meter high up I think you're plus on block. Might even be able to punish her with instant block 5A/2B.
  
• At the right spacing, B Droit is plus even on instant block (I was told this, didn't test it myself)
  
• If you are in awakening and in the corner, you can punish her uppercut with 2B (air hit, both hits) > D slide (1 hit) > cross slash > 2B > 5B > j.c > j.214B > 2B > j.c > j.214A > cross slash
  
• If you are near the corner, the best punish for her uppercut is off 2C fatal counter. If you are not near the corner, you can do 214A > dash 5B 5C > 214D > OMC > 214B > 5B > j.c > j.214B > 2B > j.214A. If you block and then dash 214A, dash 5B 5C you can get her to the corner even if you started in the corner. She can super cancel to counterhit you on both of these.
  
• You can roll through Bufudyne on reaction. You can't roll through Myriad Arrows on reaction. You can roll in the middle, even if she doesn't charge the last kick.
  

[VR-Raiden]

That all sounds accurate based on my experiences too.

I'm still ass at this match up, I feel like you have to play significantly different then vs other characters.

A useful way to punish B+D when they have meter, you can 5A right when she lands. If they cancel to super immediately, you recover in time to block/roll/super it. If they didn't super you get a CH 5A crouching ground hit. Think I saw SKD do it. Seems really good cuz you can call them out for super canceling for a huge punish+waste of their meter, and get them for not canceling at the same time. Have to be careful you don't 5A too late though or the super hits you.

[VR-Raiden]

double post but more random stuff :/

After sweep > 5D, if you jump in and they have meter they have the option of reversal Bufudyne which is air unblockable (why ASW, why).

So be careful if they start to do that.

Psychic 214A apparently goes over Droits with the right timing and CH's her. Also can go over her sweep and 4/6B for a CH.

[Killey]

What I've learned about about this matchup:

• You can't challenge Mitsuru 5A with pokes
  
• You can't challenge Mitsuru j.b with 2B
  
• You can't challenge Mitsuru j.a with j.b
  
• 5D has a significant dead zone where it can't hit you if you're too close
  
• C slide/D slide will always beat 5A unless she starts her 5A faster than your slide. C slide can start up even after her 5A. On block C slide is not in counterhit so if she blocks it the best she can do is 5A > stuff. You lose a primer though. There is a range where C slide actually cannot be punished by 5A, but it's WAY far out.
  
• Mitsuru's 4/5/6 B will fatal counter your slide 100% consistently. D slide will trade but she gets to combo anyway.
  
• Her low options are worse than her overhead options when she has an ice shield out or she has 50 meter to OMC j.b. Her only lows are 2A and sweep. She can get a combo off sweep but it's pretty slow so you should be able to block high, and then react low. At the range she wants to be at, which is 5A range, she can only really do 2A > A droit as a low.
  
• None of her A or B attacks are jump cancellable on block besides 2B.
  
• If they do j.b without meter high up I think you're plus on block. Might even be able to punish her with instant block 5A/2B.
  
• At the right spacing, B Droit is plus even on instant block (I was told this, didn't test it myself)
  
• If you are in awakening and in the corner, you can punish her uppercut with 2B (air hit, both hits) > D slide (1 hit) > cross slash > 2B > 5B > j.c > j.214B > 2B > j.c > j.214A > cross slash
  
• If you are near the corner, the best punish for her uppercut is off 2C fatal counter. If you are not near the corner, you can do 214A > dash 5B 5C > 214D > OMC > 214B > 5B > j.c > j.214B > 2B > j.214A. If you block and then dash 214A, dash 5B 5C you can get her to the corner even if you started in the corner. She can super cancel to counterhit you on both of these.
  
• You can roll through Bufudyne on reaction. You can't roll through Myriad Arrows on reaction. You can roll in the middle, even if she doesn't charge the last kick.
  

How are they spacing j.A and j.B in a way that you can't challenge it with 2B?

Also, her 5AAA is jump canceable.

[shtkn]

Also, her 5AAA is jump canceable.

only on hit.

5AAAAA is also jump cancelable on hit as well.

[Kikuichimonji]

Oh, did I mention that 214C/214D beats droit if both come out at the same time?

How are they spacing j.A and j.B in a way that you can't challenge it with 2B?

Also, her 5AAA is jump canceable.

Rising j.b, as in do it and hope it works. If I see it, usually it's too late to do anything but block or maybe uppercut.

You can beat j.a with 2B for sure, I said you can't beat her air to air with Yu j.b because her j.a is broke. Might be able to j.c.

And yeah 5A and 5AAA are jump cancellable on hit, but not on block.

[darkpath]

I've noticed you can 2A her 5A on 2A's range

[Ken-oh]

Anybody got any links to high level play of this matchup? Finding it really difficult. I found some arcade matches but the Mitsuru player always showed way more respect that I'm used to, they seem to press way less buttons. I'm doing the same stuff as in the videos (minus some of the better combos) but there's obviously something I'm missing.

EDIT: Disregard, didn't notice the video thread was divided by character. Still, any recommendations?

[Kikuichimonji]

Are you sliding under her 5A/Droit with 214C? That is HUGE for the respect issue. And she can't just throw out 5B and hope it works, otherwise you can punish her on whiff. She might be able to react to slide and 5B. But once you get her scared of your slide, then your own 5B becomes useful as does 214B and 214A.

Seriously this is the biggest single change to the matchup I've incorporated. At any reasonable range the only way she can really punish it on block is 5A which will get her like 1.3k midscreen and no knockdown, and if it hits you get a safe jump.

Also if you see her charging B Droit it seems like you can just 214D for free. Don't respect it.

[Ken-oh]

Are you sliding under her 5A/Droit with 214C? That is HUGE for the respect issue. And she can't just throw out 5B and hope it works, otherwise you can punish her on whiff. She might be able to react to slide and 5B. But once you get her scared of your slide, then your own 5B becomes useful as does 214B and 214A.

Seriously this is the biggest single change to the matchup I've incorporated. At any reasonable range the only way she can really punish it on block is 5A which will get her like 1.3k midscreen and no knockdown, and if it hits you get a safe jump.

Also if you see her charging B Droit it seems like you can just 214D for free. Don't respect it.

I started using 214C but are you supposed to do it on reaction? A droit comes out way too fast and if its out first it seems to win. So I'm essentially guessing when to do it and while 214C doesn't seem too bad on block, it just puts me in her face and she starts pressing her buttons.

Also when she is right in on me, does 214C beat her 5A then? It felt like whenever I tried it, I got beaten on startup.

It just feels like I have to work my ass off to do anything at all, while she is quite mindlessly pushing buttons in my face, everything safe, and even if it feels like I can press something its beaten out by 5A. I've started instant blocking a lot but it doesn't seem to change a ton, all I can punish is A droit but its rare they do that on block now I can punish it. Matchup really doesn't feel like 5-5 at all, feels like I have to play absolutely on point; tech every throw, IB everything, go for the most elaborate oki, while they just lounge around pressing 5A.

If anyone has some videos of the matchup being handled as it should be, please post it here if you could.

[Kikuichimonji]

I started using 214C but are you supposed to do it on reaction? A droit comes out way too fast and if its out first it seems to win. So I'm essentially guessing when to do it and while 214C doesn't seem too bad on block, it just puts me in her face and she starts pressing her buttons.

Also when she is right in on me, does 214C beat her 5A then? It felt like whenever I tried it, I got beaten on startup.

It just feels like I have to work my ass off to do anything at all, while she is quite mindlessly pushing buttons in my face, everything safe, and even if it feels like I can press something its beaten out by 5A. I've started instant blocking a lot but it doesn't seem to change a ton, all I can punish is A droit but its rare they do that on block now I can punish it. Matchup really doesn't feel like 5-5 at all, feels like I have to play absolutely on point; tech every throw, IB everything, go for the most elaborate oki, while they just lounge around pressing 5A.

If anyone has some videos of the matchup being handled as it should be, please post it here if you could.

Your assessment of the matchup is pretty accurate.

No, you're not doing 214C on reaction but the goal is to get her to stop mashing 5A. Seriously unless someone is punishing you for it, just keep doing it. And then do the safe jump afterwards. If they stop mashing (they have to against slide) then you can do stuff like dash 5B.

Also like I said before, Mitsuru can't jab out of pressure because her fastest normal is 7 frames. This makes hitting buttons with Yu after 214A on block pretty legit. She can try to throw you, but you can be a total asshole and do 214A -> 214A to counterhit her for the juice. It also makes stuff like 5A dash 5A worth doing, especially if you mix it up with frame traps.

You can't 214C her meaty 5A but in any neutral-ish situation it will work. And remember, you don't have to do the slide at any given time. Droit only beats 214C if it's out way earlier, you can just block for a second and see if they do it. And of course they need charge.

The biggest thing I would point out is that Yu's offense is really unfair, and Mitsuru's is more annoying. Block high and react low when you're worried about j.b OMC/j.B + Ice shield. Her only lows are 2A and sweep, and 2A prorates terribly. Her throw mixups in the corner are pretty good, but risky. If she tries to mix up 4B and throw you can guess she's gonna 4B and CH her with 5B.

Work on the 5D fuzzy guard double jump j.a and all his other mixups. If they're blocking your oki more than 50% of the time, they're either super amazing on defense or you need to incorporate more stuff like rolls, j.b -> j.214A -> 5DD, Air turn air dash, empty jump 2A, low air dash, etcetera.

[VR-Raiden]

As for punishing her DP, I stated earlier you can 5A to hit her recovery for no Bufudyne super cancel, and it recovers fast enough to block/roll/super Bufudyne. However this loses to Myriad Arrows, so if the Mitsuru knows that, you can't get away with it. A better option that covers all possible choices (and potentially gets her to waste meter and give you a deadly punish) is shown here:

But I figured I would post these combos too since they seem like strong options for punishing provided you have meter and are in awakening. Getting the CS to cross under is a bit tricky unfortunately.

Midscreen:

air hit CH 2B > 214D(1) > CS > 2B > 5C > j.B > j.BB > j.B > j.C > j.214A - (4191, +Ziodyne 5102)

Yu near corner:

air hit CH 2B > 214D(1) > CS > 2B(1) > 5B > j.C > j.214B > 5D - (3373)

air hit CH 2B > 214D(1) > CS > 2B > 5B > j.C > j.214B > 2B > j.C > j.214A > 5AAA / CS - (4916 / 5716)

[Phong]

after a knockdown, what kind of Oki options are you guys using against Mitsuru when you anticipate that she's gonna try and DP? it seems like her DP works so well against a lot of the oki mixups

[VR-Raiden]

after a knockdown, what kind of Oki options are you guys using against Mitsuru when you anticipate that she's gonna try and DP? it seems like her DP works so well against a lot of the oki mixups

Yeah since the hitbox is so massive on her DP, it hits you for attempting cross ups. Fuzzy j.A is strong as always, since there's no gap and she's one of the easier characters to do it on. Mix that up with 2A. Or you can just jump in and block if they literally just mashing that DP. If you punish the DP badly enough times it should discourage them from mashing it out every time so you can start going for more tricky/rewarding mix ups. Also be wary of reversal Bufudyne to kill you for attempting any jump in mix ups, jumping straight up can avoid that.