Order-Sol vs. Slayer

[LM_Akira]

Originally posted by WUT:

Slayer is retarded in AC. Link system allows him to convert pretty much any hit into solid damage with 25% meter, his CHs are great and give him free combos, and all his combos end in knockdown and oki.

To be honest, I didn't have much experience in this match-up until a friend pointed out a relatively simple fact, which I promptly tested at SER v.2 with great results: outside of 2HS range, Slayer only has 3 ways to come in and start his mix-up, 6HS, Mappa, and IAD/jump in j.HS. That being said, if you can find what beats those three ways in, along with baiting 2HS effectively, then you can fight a Slayer. HOS' main answer(s) to 6HS, Mappa, and j.HS come in two flavors: GB and 2D, with GB being the better option. Both will either hit Slayer out of his offense, or whiff his offense and recover in time to be safe, so you can throw it out occasionally.

The problem starts when Slayer begins relying on 2HS to prevent you from keeping him out. 2HS CHs 2D (ugly) and hits you out of GB (non CH). The solution to 2HS spamming is an easy j.P whiff falling j.HS. At that point it becomes a little mindgame on whether you're going to jump in (so he has to anti-air with 2S and 6P, both of which score a CH on falling j.HS but clash/whiff if you do another j.P instead. If Slayer anti-airs with 5P then you trade if you do another j.P, or lose if you do a j.HS), or whether you're going to continue keeping him out (for more 2HS spam). The funny part is, if Slayer tries to anti-air with 5P, 2S or 6P, they all lose to 2D. Even if Slayer uses his FB BBU to anti-air (bad decision), 2D/GB win. So we're right back where we started in terms of keeping Slayer guessing.

Offensively...I'm not too sure. I was focused more on baiting and countering Slayer than starting my own offense, but when I did get a chance I just used basic mix-up and tick throws. Personally, I prefer to back off and Charge in this fight, forcing Slayer to come in and begin the baiting game again. That way, I always have Charge to combo with when I do score a hit. Meaty oki (particularly 6K) on Slayer is particularly effective (no DP) until he gets 50% tension. Speaking of 50% tension: fear Dead on Time (punch super). Once Slayer has 50% and you're trying to come in, you HAVE to bait it. However, once you successfully bait it you get a free punish with Slayer pretty much in the corner (a running Fafnir into air combo is great for this).

Originally posted by TITANIUM BEAST!!!:

Some more observations on the Slayer matchup:

2HS is an annoying move, especially when he uses it to zone you. However, your 5S(f) beats it out on startup if both moves are thrown at the same time. The catch here is that his 6P will CH your 5S(f), but he must guess on this one and as WUT posted above, 2D will beat 6P for a free CH into combo, so this gives you another tool in the midscreen baiting game.

2S can also beat 2HS, though the consistency of this is arguable. Regardless, I've been able to CH Slayer out of his 2HS with 2S, but other pokes like 2K and 5K will probably beat it out.

Another tool against 2HS is Fafnir. At first, it seems like Fafnir would lose to 2HS due to the lower-body invincibility on the move, but this only happens if you do your Fafnir first or at the same time as his 2HS. Slayer's 2HS only has lower-body invincibility up to the first active frame of the move, same as Fafnir. So if you do Fafnir after he does 2HS, you will beat it. This is another baiting game, as basically whoever does their move first will lose. The risk/reward is roughly equal here, except that Slayer doesn't have to commit to using his 25% meter immediately. So trudge carefully.

One place that the above information can really come in handy is when you are on defense. Some Slayer players like to autopilot their links when they are on offense, which you can take advantage of. If the Slayer you are fighting is always doing 2K-2HS, you can block the 2K and Fafnir against the 2HS for a free combo.

Another tip for in-close fighting is to use 2P. Slayer's 2K has this annoying property of being able to evade 5K even at fairly close ranges (except for point-blank). However, 2P will usually beat 2K cleanly. It will also beat out 6HS if you are in range to hit Slayer. So use 2P more often for starting your strings in this fight.

I've been relatively unsuccessful with getting j.P to clash with Slayer's 2S, so I would opt to FD if I throw j.P and he hasn't thrown out another move. In general, I don't like to just use j.P out of the blue in this matchup, I get anti-aired way too much.

Backing up and Charging is a requirement versus Slayer. Trying to initiate offense at midscreen is far too risky as the risk/reward is heavily skewed in Slayer's favor. It's better to play conservatively and try to make Slayer come at you so you can counter his approach and get a knockdown to start your offense. Level 2/level 3 makes this fight much easier as well.

Some other stuff:

Properly spaced, your 6P will beat Slayer's 6P. 6P is useful in general as long as you are outside of 2HS range.

Usually, j.P will stop Slayer's IAD j.HS cold, but if he is far enough away, you won't be able to hit him and may even risk a CH. Spacing is IMPORTANT.

Another move that will help you get around 2HS spam is BRP at pretty much any level. However, again, this will lose to 6P and CH 6P leads to a huge chunk of your life. The risk is usually only worth it if you have level 3 since you can combo off of it for big damage, but level 2 is ok to go for occasionally since you will get the knockdown you want. Level 1 is not worth it.

I think that's all I can remember for now. Fuck Slayer.

[excelence]

2K-2HS, you can block the 2K and Fafnir against the 2HS for a free combo.

i just realize this fact as Fafnir has lower body invul and immune to his 2hs

and hell, Tyrrant Rave is useless on this fight as he can BBU it on block

question, what can OS throw at him when OS is on a well spaced knock down by him, other than high jump escape and SF reversal?

[Sesshyru]

Uh... Block?

[reaVer]

If he's doing proper okizeme you can only block or backdash, no other forms of escaping are possible. If he's doing improper okizeme(standing right next to you, doing crap like 5H or 6H) you can SV him usually for free as they are not paying attention.

[excelence]

ugh... i guess, i should bear with his oki and got more solid blocking and mind games (+_+)

[Sesshyru]

Yah slayer eats SV if hes doin weird stuff. Most good moves comes from that overhead kick which is slow enough to react to, or that down kick sweep, but I come up blocking low anyway so thats not usually a problem. Blocking is the best option for me cause if I mess up, thats like 80% of my frikin life.. Just watch out for 6P after block strings, its too good..

[reaVer]

oh, if he's doing the overhead wrong, you could try gun blazing it, but that's hard:P

[whytesakura]

cvs2 fight...don't get hit first lol xD hos def won't beat slayer in the damage game (suv vs a 16 wheeler)

[reaVer]

On level 3 OS can definitely hurt Slayer. It depends on what Slayer wants to do, if he waits for you to go in at him you're just gonna hit&run and there l3 gives you maximum damage; if Slayer decides to rush you down you can play your regular game and if done right you'll be only hitting Slayer and not the other way around.

[Sesshyru]

I have always liked fighting slayers because its an actual fight. The thing about slayer is most of his stuff "over" extends him, he moves back then he moves forward 100 miles or he has to jump in deep. RI and GB really tears him up, just gota get your timing down to an emasculate degree. But its just thoes dang stomps >.o The range lies and if you mess around and get hit your done

[reaVer]

Use l1Ri against 2H, owns it for free. If he does them more carefully just guard them, since he's not gonna keep using them.

[Sesshyru]

2H is the stomp or the Vega slide? RI beats that? Wha O.o?!

[Tsak]

2H is the stomp or the Vega slide? RI beats that? Wha O.o?!

vega slide is 2D i believe

2H is batty cloud

[reaVer]

2H is stomp, 2D is gay slide.

[Sesshyru]

and RI beats that >.>? Lies <.<

[whytesakura]

slayer can really punish a really offensive sol. thats why i said its a very cvs2 like match. you put yourself in a position to get punished, slayer will capitalize. you gotta run the hos game on him before slayer makes you regret you ever tried to fight pound for pound

[WUT]

A few more observations on the Slayer matchup:

- HOS' mobility is a great asset for this fight. After the mandatory Manual Charge to Lvl3, you can use Slayer's limited mobility to your advantage. Keeping in mind Slayer's main methods of closing the gap (Mappa, IAD/jump, 6HS/2D), you control the pace of the match as you dictate exactly when you move within range to fight him. Just space the shit out of him, make him whiff an anti-air with double jumps/IADs/superjumps, or punish him for trying to get inside. Combo, knockdown, rinse, repeat. You can successfully run away from Slayer and win; it's laughable.

- Something I realized recently, that makes me feel like a total dumbass for only just now doing it, is that reversal Fafnir is both really dirty and extremely effective against certain reversal-safe tactics. For this particular matchup, Slayer's 2K, 2HS, and 2D all fail horribly when used as oki with Fafnir present. Making Slayer realize that throwing a meaty low = 180 damage for 25% tension, he'll opt more for high/throw, and limiting Slayer's options = awesome. Also, giving Slayer more to bait and worry about = always a plus.

Tangent: Reversal Fafnir is also effective against the likes of Anji, May, and Axl. Anji and May: using 2S or 2K/2D for oki, respectively, baits reversal SV and GB effectively. Reversal Fafnir ruins both sets of meaty normals. An Axl using meaty 3P or 2HS (lol) is in for a rude awakening when you CH the shit out of him.

Moral of the story: Reversal Fafnir is your friend.

- Dandy Step > swinging with 2D. Pilebunker > GB AND descending j.HS. So, as stated, Dandy Step < RI. Use it. Make him shut up. More rock/paper/scissors fun.

- As stated, RI > 2HS when used outside of 2HS range. When within 2HS range, you need to bait it effectively; RI doesn't win here. 5S(f) also does the job, but you've got a 3F window to work with or you get CH.

[Sesshyru]

-Moral of the story: Reversal Fafnir is your friend.

So help my logic out here, 2HS stays active for a year and 3 seconds, so I have seen slayers throw it out before you can be hit so it hits on the first available get up frame(?). So... Fafnir is feet inv on the first frame?.. Or some other Magixal stuff?.. How exactly does it work.. I have this same problem with trying to beat out VV with Oki tactics...

- As stated, RI > 2HS when used outside of 2HS range. When within 2HS range, you need to bait it effectively; RI doesn't win here. 5S(f) also does the job, but you've got a 3F window to work with or you get CH.

Hah, it doesn't win xD!

[reaVer]

5S(f) doesn't reach as far as Slayer's 2H does, when in range 2H isn't even something that should bother you since anything you got can stuff it. And in corner an immediate j.H goes to dustloop. Same with fafnir: if Slayer's standing towards the corner and is reasonably close that fafnir you hit against his bad okizeme goes to a lot of pain. I've also tested a bit on how consistent Slayer can 2H your fafnir, and I might be wrong, but it doesn't seem to be his perfect anti weapon; you with your silly fafnir usually win, for CH.

[WUT]

Fafnir = low invincible from frame 1, giving you a 2F window to work with when beating meaty lows (you're invincible when waking up for the first frame). Even if Slayer does a perfect meaty 2K, 2HS, or 2D, he cannot recover in time to guard Fafnir. If Slayer does a fake meaty 2K (earlier, so it doesn't actually hit) so you Fafnir and he guards it, you're stuck at -6, meaning he can technically punish you with a 5K. If you're having that much trouble baiting reversal DPs, you need to opt for the safe meaty jump-in or dashing FD brake right outside of throw range. Just hold back during the jump in in case Sol VVs so you can guard, or wait for a moment if you opt to FD brake and react accordingly. I also use meaty 6P as oki against DP chars; you clash/whiff VV from the right distance and you whiff/clash/CH every other DP. Make sure you punish a reversal DP effectively; that will deter them from relying on it so heavily the next time you set up oki (unless they're thick-headed, which you can exploit in other ways).

[WUT]

Anything you've got? How close are you talking about? When you're right in his face sure, 2HS isn't a problem unless you poke with 2P/2K/2S/2D too much. But when you're around Slayer's 5K range, or in max 2HS range, 2HS is ridiculous and ruins everything that isn't Fafnir. And everything that beats 5K loses to 2HS. That, along with the reward for landing a 2HS, is why it's such a threat. Speaking of Fafnir: Fafnir: Active in 10 frames, low invincible from frames 1-11. Slayer's 2HS: Active in 13 frames, low invincible from frames 5-14. If you throw them at the same time or earlier, you lose. You have to throw Fafnir later to beat it consistantly.

[Sesshyru]

So.. Can a 2HS counter his 2HS or is that not ground inv from frame 1? Just in case you don't have meter?.. I wasnt tryin to bait his DP, I was tryin to kick his tail xD.. I have been workin on FD breaking and stuff, works great against reversals.

[Sesshyru]

So wait a second.. Both moves are low inv from frames 5-10? O.o.. So if a slayer throws it out so that the last 8 frames are hiting you then hes safe from a fafnir also? Throwing it out later.. Does that mean not to use it as a reversal* but to guard then respond with a faf?

[WUT]

So.. Can a 2HS counter his 2HS or is that not ground inv from frame 1? Just in case you don't have meter?..

I wasnt tryin to bait his DP, I was tryin to kick his tail xD.. I have been workin on FD breaking and stuff, works great against reversals.

2HS is low invincible from frames 14-22, meaning you'd need to throw it out before Slayer tried to 2HS in order to avoid it. Every time I've tried this, I end up clashing with 2HS or both moves just whiff each other. Don't rely on HOS' 2HS to beat Slayer's 2HS; just stick to playing it safe or jumping to punish it if you lack meter to be a threat with Fafnir.

So wait a second.. Both moves are low inv from frames 5-10? O.o.. So if a slayer throws it out so that the last 8 frames are hiting you then hes safe from a fafnir also? Throwing it out later.. Does that mean not to use it as a reversal* but to guard then respond with a faf?

I think you're misunderstanding. Slayer's 2HS becomes active after 13F of animation, and it's active for 2F. During frames 5-14 of the entire animation (which includes 1F of the move while it's active) he cannot be hit by low attacks. If Slayer did a perfect meaty 2HS (last active frame hits), he does not recover in time to guard a reversal Fafnir, as it has 22 frames of recovery animation to go through. I'm not saying a Slayer WOULD do a meaty 2HS, as it's actually a rather horrible idea to try and meaty 2HS as it's not active very long and it loses its low invincibility after the first active frame. I merely included it as another low in Slayer's arsenal, along with it being the low you're fighting against most often. During Oki, Slayer will opt for 2K and 2D as his low options, which is where reversal Fafnir comes into play.

Also, you cannot punish Slayer's 2HS with Fafnir. he's at -5 if you guard it; -9 if you IB it. If he does it from further out and you guard the only thing you can actually punish 2HS with is Savage Fang.

[Sesshyru]

ah.. Got cha.. Throwing reversal around kinda complicated things..