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[P4A] Elizabeth Tricks and Gimmicks Compilation (Updated 3/11/13)

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Elizabeth Tricks and Gimmicks Compilation

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"She was not lying when she said she has several effective ways of inflicting pain"

tumblr_m7qz5fzx3H1r8hguio1_250.gif

Credits:

  • Elochai for updates on gimmicks
  • ryofoong and TD for the idea.
  • Juunee for 5C(2) > JD information and evidence.
  • TD for chicken block trick
  • Geobuster for JD Extend range trick
  • Synthesis for Mahamaon Trick.
  • chuchoyei for more JD reset information.
  • Pulsr for video showing instant overhead.
  • Eshi for safe jump setup and maragidyne oki trick.


    Table of Contents:

  1. Introduction


  2. Gimmicks

1. Introduction

Solid player but tired of having a one dimensional playstyle? Want to look for several effective ways of inflicting pain? Well you've come to the right place. This thread is designed to provide you with the many options to keep your opponent on their toes, and will bring more creativity into your gameplay which will always bring something fresh and new. Of course this thread is open for discussion, so feel free to contribute anything you may want to add and hopefully we could get a nice list going on!

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2.Gimmicks




  1. Thanatos 5C Pressure: Rock, Paper, Scissors!
    Notes: The easiest way of testing your opponent's knowledge of the match-up. After the 2nd blocked hit of 5C, either cancel into 2C or 5D. The guard point from 2C beats mashing while 5D is a throw that beats blocking. Both options beat roll, but lose to holding up back (except in the corner where 2C hits a vulnerable jump frame when timed correctly). Liz can also cancel 5C into 2D - it loses to mashing just like 5D, but recovers faster so she can get a chance to punish. This form of pressure is fairly weak midscreen, but spacing Liz at 5B's sweetspot distance against a cornered opponent makes it very difficult for them to punish 2C without risking a counterhit.

    After 5C has completely recovered, she can also do 214A (beats opponents who hold up back on autopilot) or jC (keeps Thanatos in place for you to use 5C again). Note that 5C is minus on block however, therefore this will lose to mashing. Typically it's bad for Liz players to go for midscreen pressure with Thanatos too much because you can very quickly find yourself persona broken.


  2. 2C Hit Confirm Option Select
    Notes: Liz has a useful input option select to help her hit confirm 2C. After pretty much every 2C while she has 50 meter, input 2C > 214B > OMC > 5C. If the opponent gets hit by 2C then Liz will immediately cancel into 214B and she can hit confirm from there. If the opponent blocks 2C, then Liz gets OMC > 5C frame trap instead. This helps keep Liz from getting persona broken extremely quickly after blocked 2C's and lets her work in one last guessing game.


  3. 2B > OMC > JA Instant Overhead
    Notes: Self explanatory, it's just a quick attack into an instant overhead, and it can be seen here. Fatal counter hit on a feared opponent makes it much easier to hit confirm, and remember that you can do a low or throw instead once the opponent starts adapting!


  4. OMC 5C On Block!
    Notes: Normally 5C can not be OMC'd on block - however, if you hold input 2ABC just after the first blocked hit of 5C then you will get on OMC! This is extremely useful for Elizabeth because she gains a number of options:
    1) 5C > 2OMC> 5C - frame trap that punishes both mashing and holding up back!
    2) Keep pressure on the opponent by getting closer with 5C > 2OMC > dash or 5C > 2OMC> Instant Air Turn Dash [iATD]
    3) 5C > 2OMC > dash > 5B > 5D - This gimmick leaves Thanatos right on top of the opponent and makes it very difficult to react to 5D. The spacing also makes it safe against many character's R-Actions.


  5. JC Combo Ender
    Notes: This is the standard combo ender on standing opponents which provides you with the ability to air dash to your opponent to maintain momentum and apply pressure if you need to. In addition, you could opt for Thanatos pressure since he will reappear on the ground where jC hit, or you could aim for a Mabufudyne where you feel that players may opt to try and away once they have recovered. In the corner, it also provides you with a quick 2A/Throw mixup.


  6. 2C > C Maragidyne Oki(Corner Only)
    Notes: While comboing an opponent in the corner, end whatever combo with 5C > 2C > C Maragidyne or just 2C > C Maragidyne such that they have to tech on the ground. Thanatos immediately starts Maragidyne after 2C recovers which then comes out a few frames after the opponent wakes up.

    This setup shuts down a TON of options. If they try to poke or F-Action on wake-up, Thanatos will probably get broken but Maragidyne will still come out for a fatal counter! If they try to roll out, Elizabeth has already recovered and can fatal throw them back into the corner on reaction! The only reliable option is to block, but they're forced to block for 2 seconds which gives time for liz to mix them up or perfect her positioning. It's extremely strong.


  7. JD Range Extend
    Notes: JD's range is normally pretty pitiful. However since Thanatos' summon position is behind Liz you can air turn so that your back is facing the opponent and this will DOUBLE the grab's range. Not only that, but it can also be considered faster since Thanatos' position starts closer to the opponent instead of having to go past Liz. This improves the usefulness of this move.

    Be very careful about using this while you have a burst - airturn jD uses the exact same inputs and it's very easy to waste a gold burst on accident. To avoid this, input 7AB4 first to get an IAD backwards which can cancel almost immediately into jD to lose very little range.


  8. JD Tech Trap
    Notes: This tech trap is quite interesting. It requires you to drop your combo to catch opponents in an air grab reset, and the following are known examples.
    The first method is by doing a JB > dj.D. This can be done in this combo for example: 5AAA > A.Bufu > JB > dj.D. If the opponent techs immediately Thanatos will grab them and score a reset. This is an example.

    The other method is by following up from SB.Zio in the corner. In the corner, after SB.Zio, you use 5C(2) > JD, and again if the opponent techs they will get caught in the reset. The only disadvantage with this reset is that your opponent has the easy option of opting not to tech and thus avoid getting reset, but this will happen more when your opponent is more accustomed to what you can do with Elizabeth. Example.

    Alternatively, if you have no meter, you can do b.bufu > 5C > j.D reset. For example, 5D > j.B > j.A > j.C > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > 214B > delay 5C > j.D reset.
    After any combo that involves bufu in the corner, you can do j.A > jump cancel air turn > j.D for a reset. Catches every tech but neutral (slightly delay the j.D on upwards tech). It's so wacky that on forward tech, Thanatos gets summoned in front of Liz to grab the opponent.

    5AAA D.Garu 5AA JD resets in corner against back, front tech. (They can't mash out of this) the JD timing is to jump cancel the 5AA and JD as soon as you jump. Also you can opt to finish the combo and reset after 5C(2) like normal (beats back, front, up tech).You can even do it after a JD reset, doing JD, 5B, 2AB, D.Garu, 5AA JD for another reset. 5AAA D.Garu 5A 2B dj.D works midscreen against back tech.


  9. Magarudyne Cross-Up After Blocked jC
    Notes: jC exhibits an interesting property on block - the opponent is shunted in the direction that Elizabeth is facing. What does this mean?
    1) Midscreen, Elizabeth can airdash behind them and input jC > D Magarudyne (236D). The jC cross-up is slow enough that most players can react to it, but blocking jC pushes the opponent under Liz and to the other side so that Magarudyne crosses up again! This can be hit confirmed meterless into Garu loops on Naoto/Labrys/Shadow Labrys/Elizabeth/Akihiko/Yosuke, but against other characters you need an OMC to follow up.
    2) Against a cornered opponent, Elizabeth can input air turn > jC > D Magarudyne. The jC will actually suck the opponent out of the corner and cause Garu to unexpectedly cross up for huge damage!


  10. Meaty 2C
    Notes: 2C has a ton of active frames which makes it a decent meaty. After a midscreen hit confirm with Thanatos, end it with 2C instead (EX: 5C > 2C > 214B > 2C > 5C > 2C) and immediately input another 2C as the opponent is rising. This forces them to block 2C much later in its active frames and allows 5C to frame trap afterwards without requiring any meter! You can also execute the option select 2C hit confirm here without meter.


  11. Bufu > Air Unblockable Tech Trap
    Notes: If the opponent manages to break out of the ice in time they will be in the air. Remember that the A.Bufu has a low recovery state, making it easy for you to catch them with an air unblockable reset. You can opt for a B.Bufu but you have to be pretty quick with this, or you could quickly dash and go for a 2B. An example is doing 5AAA > A.Bufu > Air unblockable reset. Bear in mind that this is not the only time where you can go for a B.Bufu reset. You could also do it after a 5A or 2A in a combo on an airbourne opponent. Again there is the requirement for the opponent to tech in the air in order for this to work.


  12. B.Bufu/SB.Zio > 2D Ender
    Notes: After a B.Bufu, rather than going for the full combo you could end with 2D to inflict poison onto your opponent. You would have to input this fairply quickly though so you maintain Thanatos' position next to your opponent. You could also do this to an opponent in the corner after you've hit them with SB.Zio. The recovery of 2D is fairly fast meaning you can catch an opponent's attempt to mash and hit Thanatos , but Thanatos will lose to reversals which may render this method slightly less effective against those with offensive F-Actions such as Yu and Mitsuru. You can take a look at this by checking videos with Kaqn.


  13. Hide Your All-Out-Attack with SB Maziodyne
    Notes:While you have 75 meter against a cornered opponent, force them to block SB Maziodyne (236AB) and immediately input OMC > 66AB. The active frames on SB Zio completely mask the start-up of Liz's normally horrible All Out Attack - opponents who haven't seen this setup before will get hit 100% of the time.


  14. Mahamaon Death Trap
    Notes: This is an instant kill if you land a hit on oki. Hitconfirm any midscreen combo into xxx > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > Mahamaon > Sweep. This gives you sweep knockdown with a mahamaon very close to you. This gives you VERY threatening oki: if you land a hit, you instant kill. Depending on the situation:

    • 5D(CH) wallbounce > 5B > sweep > D.Garu > 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > JC (combos into Mahamaon) (100 SP total for setup and combo)
    • 5D(non-CH) > 5B > Sweep ?> SB.Garu[3] 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > JC (combos into Mahamaon) (125 SP total for setup and combo)
    • 5AA > 5B > Sweep > SB.Garu[3] (crossunder) > 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > j.C (125 SP)
    • 2A > Sweep > bnb (125 SP)
    • 2B > JC > SB.Garu etc... (125 SP)
    • IAD j.A > bnb (125 SP)


Pretty much, you can do whatever you want. It's actually quite easy to land a hit here; the enemy will be antsy and any hit (granted you have SOME meter) gives you the instant kill. If you don't have enough meter right away, you can still combo them right back on top of Mahamaon and go for mixups, like simply rolling behind them for a mahamaon crossup. To be successful with this you really need to read your opponent.



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We all know you can basically "teach" your opponent to do some things that you can later take advantage of. But this will get down to some specifics that will allow you to further analyze exactly each movement you do.

Opponent Conditioning:

- Opponents who are adept at fighting Elizabeths will eventually learn to watch Elizabeth herself to see what moves she's doing exactly. Like 5D her arm is out straight, 2C she is crouching and holding a card, and so forth. Something interesting is that opponents will begin to do this with even Agi and superjump airdash almost all the time. However, Bufu and Agi share almost the exact same animation and this can be used to trick opponents into jumping into a B.Bufu unblockable and then combo with whatever you want. (Only works with people who react extremely quickly, as the animations aren't identical and then they can just not airdash, leaving thanatos open. Only use in rare situations)

- A staple movement for a lot of high level Elizabeth players is to [dash forward > IAD back > j.B] Besides this zoning our your opponent and building meter it can be used to condition your opponent to expect this movement. It seems basic but Elizabeth has a number of ways to counteract an opponent who will attempt to get in on you during the holes of this movement. Options that Elizabeth has are as follows:

* Elizabeth can dash forward > jump > j.D if you expect your opponent to immediately jump in at you. Can be seen here

* Elizabeth can also use Bufu because Bufu is air unblockable and the A version comes out quite quickly.

* 5C is good against IAD as well as run ins and can be hit confirmed for good damage. Seen here

* Using A.Zio instead of the j.B can also be effective against certain opponents. Seen here

* Standing and using 2B anti-air into a combo is also a viable option against opponents who don't IAD, but super jump airdash, or jump doublejump in.

- 5C Rock Paper Scissors+

Another thing to note is that 2C can be OMC on hit and can be used effectively against opponents who wait for a 2C and attempt to break thanatos.

- The Thread

I'll post more as I start to figure out more things.

My name is spelled wrong :P

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That stuff is cool, but I got that in the data thread in the guide because that stuff seems to be geared into how to be using Liz rather than tricks and gimmicks. I'd figured it'll be more useful there too since I would hope that beginners look to the data thread first when learning about Liz lol.

I've corrected your name and got the 2C info down.

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That stuff is cool, but I got that in the data thread in the guide because that stuff seems to be geared into how to be using Liz rather than tricks and gimmicks. I'd figured it'll be more useful there too since I would hope that beginners look to the data thread first when learning about Liz lol.

I've corrected your name and got the 2C info down.

Yeah I didn't know exactly where that info would go, but it's important info. And for beginners it's not something that can just be picked up by looking, it's the little things, ya'know? Anyways I'll attempt to contribute as much as I can to this thread, considering I kinda forced you into making it xD

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Again thanks for the info it's fantastic.

No worries dude, it's all good. As long as it helps I'm happy.

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There's a sorta gimmick I found here that can be done if you use Agi. You OMC after landing Agi on a blocking opponent and then walk up for mixup. This is pretty standard but people might not realize you can OMC it, as well as the fact that if you use SB.Agi the flames going forward actually conceal Elizabeth to an extent. If a move is landed during Agi keep in mind that the opponent will launch. Example

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if you dont mind losing a persona life: after 5c (hit, particularly standing non ch as there arent many options to follow up with anyway), 2d for poison. this will also work on block if the foe is expecting to punish a 2c.

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Regarding the 5C(2) > C.Agi corner oki:

It requires conditioning. If the opponent techs immediately after the 5C(2) they could easily hit Thanatos out of it and the flames will not appear. If they slightly delay their tech they will get hit by the flames even if they hit Thanatos. This is why you use the 5C(2) > JD tech trap so you condition them into teching late or not at all. There's another problem.

If they get hit by the flames and they do not hit Thanatos, if you followup with 5B, Thanatos will come out quite late and 2C will whiff on the opponent, which basically means you need to end with A.Zio or JC. For this reason I recommend using 5A > 5B > 5C, to give Thanatos the time he needs to be able to come out again. If they block the flames you're free to do whatever you want but you have to b creative with your mixup.

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Regarding the 5C(2) > C.Agi corner oki:

It requires conditioning. If the opponent techs immediately after the 5C(2) they could easily hit Thanatos out of it and the flames will not appear. If they slightly delay their tech they will get hit by the flames even if they hit Thanatos. This is why you use the 5C(2) > JD tech trap so you condition them into teching late or not at all. There's another problem.

If they get hit by the flames and they do not hit Thanatos, if you followup with 5B, Thanatos will come out quite late and 2C will whiff on the opponent, which basically means you need to end with A.Zio or JC. For this reason I recommend using 5A > 5B > 5C, to give Thanatos the time he needs to be able to come out again. If they block the flames you're free to do whatever you want but you have to b creative with your mixup.

I saw an Elizabeth doing 2C > C.Agi as well. I believe that has more hitstun than 5C does. I'll test it when I get back home later tomorrow.

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we can OMC 5c guys, but not just by pressing abc like for other moves, you have to press 2abc for w/e reason. anyway, this means we're equipped to punish chicken blocking with 5c(2) OMC bufu or j.5d. no more waiting for paralysis to do a scary mixup. however there is no invul on these moves so mashing can definitely beat bufu and maybe j.5d. also, as with all her pressure, guess wrong and you're back to neutral with 1 less persona life.

other things

-there's a minimum time to press 2abc, in between the gap of 5c(1) and (2). any earlier and you get 5c(1) 2c(whiff).

-pressing 2abc as early as possible will give liz a good amount of +frames as 5c(2) hits, though there isnt much that can be done from this? maybe short hop mixup?

2c c agi has been great for me so far.

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we can OMC 5c guys, but not just by pressing abc like for other moves, you have to press 2abc for w/e reason. anyway, this means we're equipped to punish chicken blocking with 5c(2) OMC bufu or j.5d. no more waiting for paralysis to do a scary mixup. however there is no invul on these moves so mashing can definitely beat bufu and maybe j.5d. also, as with all her pressure, guess wrong and you're back to neutral with 1 less persona life.

other things

-there's a minimum time to press 2abc, in between the gap of 5c(1) and (2). any earlier and you get 5c(1) 2c(whiff).

-pressing 2abc as early as possible will give liz a good amount of +frames as 5c(2) hits, though there isnt much that can be done from this? maybe short hop mixup?

2c c agi has been great for me so far.

That's actually really useful. I was attempting to OMC 5C earlier when I was messing around in training mode and was like "Damn, this can't be OMC. There goes all these options I was thinking of using!" So now it turns out I can use them. Good stuff good stuff.

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another weird thing she can do, she can gatling into shuffle time from 5a(and the two followups), 2a, 5b, sweep. its interesting that she can actually, there might be some throw feint mixups, or maybe plow through mashing or some dp's perhaps. l like to do 5aaa(1) shuffle time. the whirlwind serves as a visual distraction from the grab and it looks cool.

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Today when I was playing, I tried to do the Sb.Zio > 5C (2) > j.D tech trap. I couldn't get it to work to save my life. Is there a specific height or something to it? I'm pretty sure the players I faced were teching on the first possible frame.

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we can OMC 5c guys, but not just by pressing abc like for other moves, you have to press 2abc for w/e reason. anyway, this means we're equipped to punish chicken blocking with 5c(2) OMC bufu or j.5d. no more waiting for paralysis to do a scary mixup. however there is no invul on these moves so mashing can definitely beat bufu and maybe j.5d. also, as with all her pressure, guess wrong and you're back to neutral with 1 less persona life.

other things

-there's a minimum time to press 2abc, in between the gap of 5c(1) and (2). any earlier and you get 5c(1) 2c(whiff).

-pressing 2abc as early as possible will give liz a good amount of +frames as 5c(2) hits, though there isnt much that can be done from this? maybe short hop mixup?

Why do you have to press 2ABC here TD? Doesnt this work with just a normal OMC? This could be down ot me not fully understanding chicken blocking though.

Today when I was playing, I tried to do the Sb.Zio > 5C (2) > j.D tech trap. I couldn't get it to work to save my life. Is there a specific height or something to it? I'm pretty sure the players I faced were teching on the first possible frame.

I think the way I did it was that I slightly delayed the JD by like a second. I think I tried doing it immediately and it whiffed.

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Why do you have to press 2ABC here TD? Doesnt this work with just a normal OMC? This could be down ot me not fully understanding chicken blocking though.

I believe the game is reading an option select with a 2C and OMC. The 2C is essentially being OMC on the very first frame. I was going to post this earlier, but someone beat me to it! The shit is really freakin useful and yeah, I think it's well worth it.

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Today when I was playing, I tried to do the Sb.Zio > 5C (2) > j.D tech trap. I couldn't get it to work to save my life. Is there a specific height or something to it? I'm pretty sure the players I faced were teching on the first possible frame.

I noticed when doing the Sb.Zio > 5C (2) > j.D tech trap If an opponent neutral techs, the 5D will whiff. I could only get it to work provided an opponent techs back, forward, or up. so now to figure out something mean for neutral techs.

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I noticed when doing the Sb.Zio > 5C (2) > j.D tech trap If an opponent neutral techs, the 5D will whiff. I could only get it to work provided an opponent techs back, forward, or up. so now to figure out something mean for neutral techs.

If you know the exact proration of your moves and what will not connect (I.E. Playing a lot of games) there's actually a point after SB.Zio here the 2nd part of the 5C will NOT connect. And if you opponent techs you can actually do a 5D and catch them. Here

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Watching alot of Damosu's play (seems to be the Liz with the most tricks), he seems to be doing alot of 5CC (whiff first hit) after B.Bufu in Thanatos midscreen combos, it works when there isn't too many moves before it, such as off air hits confirms or CH 5CC and such...and then instead of doing j.C ender, going for what seems to be a 2C air reset after the second B.Bufu, examples: (1) (2) (3)

This really doesn't seem to be very effective though since you can just hold tech and block 2C, or am I missing something?

Another possibility is that he's going for whiffing both hits of 5CC and getting a gimmicky backturn mixup, like this which looks really awesome

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Don't know if this would be considered a gimmick but for comboing SB.Agi you can time 2C to knock your opponent back to the other side of the screen. Sometimes you can even tack on an A.Zio or SB.Zio

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Hey guys I noticed something odd when setting up mahamaon and mamudoon in training today. I know when both set at neutral and timed they have the same length before going off but after laying mahamaon I have to do AOA > launch after max hits > j.aaa C.Garu, OMB, 2.c, 214b, 2.c, 236b before mahamaon activates, but if I lay Mamudoon in the SAME circumstance, I only have to get so far as the 2.c 214b before it activates. Anyone know whats happening here? Maybe something in the combo I'm doing is changing the length of time it takes Mamudoon to activate?

I don't have any video of it yet, but maybe later today I can get one up. thanks

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Hey guys I noticed something odd when setting up mahamaon and mamudoon in training today. I know when both set at neutral and timed they have the same length before going off but after laying mahamaon I have to do AOA > launch after max hits > j.aaa C.Garu, OMB, 2.c, 214b, 2.c, 236b before mahamaon activates, but if I lay Mamudoon in the SAME circumstance, I only have to get so far as the 2.c 214b before it activates. Anyone know whats happening here? Maybe something in the combo I'm doing is changing the length of time it takes Mamudoon to activate?

I don't have any video of it yet, but maybe later today I can get one up. thanks

That sounds interesting, possibly altering the length of Mudoon would be splendid. Gonna try it out myself :)

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A gimmick I found yesterday, costs 75-100 meter to do depending on how long it takes you, but is instant kill if you land a hit on oki.

hitconfirm combo into xxx 5C(2) 2C 214B SB.Agi Mahamaon > sweep. This gives you sweep knockdown with a mahamaon very close to you. This gives you VERY threatening oki: if you land a hit, you instant kill. Depending on the situation.

5D(CH) wallbounce 5B sweep D.Garu 2A 5B 5C(2) 2C 214B SB.Agi j.C (combos into Mahamaon) (100 SP total for setup and combo)

5D(non-CH) 5B Sweep SB.Garu[3] 2A 5B 5C(2) 2C 214B SB.Agi j.C (combos into Mahamaon) (125 SP total for setup and combo)

5AA 5B sweep SB.Garu[3] (crossunder) 2A 5B 5C(2) 2C 214B SB.Agi j.C (125 SP)

2A sweep bnb (125 SP)

2B j.C SB.Garu etc... (125 SP)

IAD j.A bnb (125 SP)

Pretty much, you can do whatever you want. It's actually quite easy to land a hit here; the enemy will be antsy and any hit (granted you have SOME meter) gives you the instant kill. If you don't have enough meter right away, you can still combo them right back on top of Mahamaon and go for mixups, like simply rolling behind them for a mahamaon crossup.

I've gotten quite a lot of wins off these setups. You really need to read your opponent though.

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