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LM_Akira

Order-Sol vs. Johnny

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Johnny's another frustrating fight for HOS (in fact he's Johnny's best matchup) it's not so much that he'll zone you like Testament, Venom or Faust can (for example) it's that he has such great range on his pokes and specials meaning it's hard to get into him. Mist Finers cover an awful lot of ground, especially at Lv2 which is what you'll probably see most (Lv2 P MF for wall bounce and combo, Lv2 K MF for air combos using KJ FRC). It's next to impossible for Johnny to score a 1-hit Ensenga knockdown on HOS but he can however use Divine Blade at the end of air combos for knockdown. He doesn't really have that many oki options now (at least I see it that way) apart from coin (to make you block) coin > TK Ensenga (RC) into combo (if you're blocking low on wakeup, especially in the corner) 3HS (safe against reversal SV) and so on.

Originally posted by Mitsurugi:

When he is from afar and you fear an upper Mist Finer (MF), you can dash-jump and or double jump and FD it to bait the MF. If the JO player perform it, he would lose a level 2.

Dash Brake (run and FD) with low FD if you want to approach from the ground. Same thing here in order to make him waste a level (MF-K or S) if he uses it as a poke/thinks there is an opening.

Anyway if he zones you from afar, that is a good opportunity to charge since you can cancel before he gets close to you. Avoid the burst cancel whatever it is called, it may works the first time but afterward, you'll get baited and punished after it.

2H mashing is easy to punish thanks to OS small jump. Don't know how, but I played two good HOS players and if I carelessly throw out it, they small jump (anticipate it) and big combo.

On the opposite, i think OS has good frame traps and "priority" that makes it hard for JO to escape pressure : 2H is really risky and blocking (FD, IB) then punishing or escaping when there is a true hole (not a bait from the frame trap) are better options for JO than mashing the panic button IMO.

When you wake up, beware of 2D or dash > throw too, either masked by a coin or a little gatling beforehand or not.

Don't recklessly throw out reversal SV as an appropriate 3H will nicely stuff it thanks to its range and 2 hits (CH against all reversal shoryukens but the distance varies for JO). Granted, it he does it too close you can nail him but that should not happen often.

3H is not a low by the way !

Do not poke with Rock It as a simple 5K will CH hit.

Originally posted by LM_Akira:

I honestly feel backdash is your best friend when playing Johnny, not to be used too often but it's good against coins at midrange and to bait any pokes that have laggy recovery. You can nullify coins with 6P but it's not something I find myself doing much. Jumping in a neutral situation will probably get you killed as Johnny has 5HS, 6P and Lv1 P MF as anti air to stop you, unless you FD. Even 3HS and 6HS can work as anti airs!!

KJT KJ can actually hit you if you do Lv1 BHB AC on the other side of the screen without FRCing, so it's probably best not to do it much (unless Johnny's been knocked down or something).

And yeah, Johnny has no invincible dragon punch style move to get himself out of pressure (apart from That's my name) so he will naturally have trouble with pressure/block strings up close and fuzzy guard off j.S can be useful for knockdown.

HOS can also dash sweep underneath coins as a further way to avoid them but you'd need to be up close to start with and be confident in judging distance.

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Whore Order Sol's 2D, that move is a real pain in the ass and allows you to play your wakeup game afterwards (JO has no wakeup move except his OD). It even wins over Johnny's 5H with proper timing and distance. Well, maybe not whoring or else you'll get predictable but definitely use this move a lot. I think you can even 2D > CC > combo but that may need to be a CH 2D.

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you can cc into combo on normal hit too. The problem is that johnny will hit you out of it if you don't do it super early with his stupid 6h(I think they designed that move to fuck hos). I hate this matchup honestly. Johnny having poor tools to get in with in AC is irrelevant seeing as hos has to bring his game to you and you have an option for shutting down every option he has, it's just a matter of not doing the wrong thing. I'm kinda realizing now that I kind of have to play the match like Zappa, in the sense that getting hit by a coin must be avoided at all costs. One thing you have to remember is to do iad combos where you can. Honestly they aren't that hard and even adding in an extra jp s h into your sweep gattling is fairly substantial. The other thing I hate about johnny is comboing him. My initial instinct is to always go for dloop on him since he weighs 10 tons, but it never really works. Off a midscreen gb is the best thing you can really do 5s ji h sj finisher? Can you do any of those tricky 5h sj d dash s d combos to him? Or is that pot only?

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Don't forget the high/low mixup from TK Ensenga or Lv2 low MF when you're in the corner, Johnny can combo from either of these from 6 miles away :vbang: Yes they take resources for him but it's frustrating he can combo you from such a large distance lol I find my DL vs Johnny too inconsistent so I tend to stick with HJ combos or JI stuff.

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Gunblaze can beat 6HS but damn the timing is a pain in the ass. I've yet to nail it down perfectly. I mess up 50/50. There's SV... Johnny's 5K is so damn annoying. The only thing I can use to counter that is SV. This is such a pain. Jumping is more risky since near the corner Johnny can combo for free. Which can lead to KD with Baccus Sigh. He kinda reminds me of Axl.

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Johnny 5k beats basically everything except jumping normals and maybe you could fafnir it. The biggest problem I have is I end up in the corner blocking, and really, there is no counter measure against johnny rushing you down besides like supering. You have to risk throwing out 2d/what ever poke you want wayyy in advance, and if you whiff it prepare for painnnnn. I find my self fighting johnny all the time now and am starting to get really frustrated with the match. I havn't had a ps2 since I switched to hos to boot so losing due to lack of knowing how to combo him is pissing me off, but that will be fixed when ever I can find a slimline power adapter >.>

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Johnny 5k beats basically everything except jumping normals and maybe you could fafnir it.

At a decent distance you could probably Fafnir his 5K, but close up I think 5K would eat Fafnir for breakfast, as with most pokes :( (I've lost count of how many pokes will stuff Fafnir if you're close up, yeah I know, don't use Fafnir that close up, but sometimes I find you need to).

If you like to do Lv1 RI (blocked) > Fafnir, Johnny's 2HS will actually stuff your Fafnir too. Of course the Johnny player would have to know this, and expect your Fafnir.

5HS, 6HS and Lv1 P MF all act as easy tech traps against HOS, I fucking hate being caught with these and taken into a combo or knocked down.

Coin pressure/ wavedash rushdown is also a right pain, I just try to stay mobile and block as correctly as possible.

I play this match all the time, a bit less right now as I'm focusing on other chars but I can add some more stuff next time I play.

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If he likes to corner you and mix you up with Tk Ensenga , then punish him in the landing recovery, you even have enough time to 6HS / BRP Lv2/3 him ! But the best is to dash Fafnir (412366 D)>Combo if your tension bar allow it.

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Well i dont understand why 6HS is such a problem for OS.. how can he tech trap u? Also lvl1 MF P doesnt leed to combo (lvl2 and lvl3 do). If JO is taken to the corner i believe it is death for him. His only good option at preasure is 2HS (excluding DA of course). Johnny also doesnt have any above head anti-air move making things even more difficult at corner. 6HS is good when used from a big distance and is always sure to hit cause of its 18 frames startup and the -15 frames if it misses. Again if u expect it u can 2D it.

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Do you know what a tech trap is? If a Johnny player sees that you always tech backwards out of combos or pressure for example, he can then chose to drop a combo after a few hits, wait for you to tech then throw out a move or try to air throw you (which leads to Bacchus Sigh FRC, block string pressure into unblockable MF). 6HS and Lv1 P MF blowback on mid air hit. That puts Order-Sol into a position he doesn't want to be in (and do ok damage for "pokes"). If you get knocked back into the corner it can become a damn pain. On CH Lv1 P MF gives knockdown, so that's another thing that puts Order-Sol into a position he doesn't want to be in (since Johnny can safely bait reversal SV with 3HS and so on...). These work as pseudo anti-airs against Order-Sol since his jump is so low...so the Order-Sol player needs to bait these things or FD them in the air (and watch for Johnny throwing them out if you tech backwards out of combos). Also 6HS is not -15 if it misses, it's -15 if it's blocked. There is no + or - advantage when you whiff a move, that's to do with block/hit stun. 6HS just has 32 frames of recovery after a whiff.

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I know what a tech trap is but again i fail to see how Johnny can tech trap u with 6HS. About the whiff recovery i knew i was wrong but since i dont know how to calculate it i just made a guess. Of course im not here to pretend a pro player, but to learn for myself and if i can, help others. I play with both JO and OS but i have only vs OS experience ;/

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Well it's quite simple really, Johnny can just throw out 6HS if Order-Sol techs out of a combo. Not much more to it tbh. With hindsight it's maybe not one of his best tech catches, 5K and 5HS are probably a lot stronger but it still has some uses. EDIT: In fact, in the corner Johnny can use 6HS as a tech trap and if it hits, follow with JC j.K, j.S, dj.K, j.S, j.D, Ensenga for easy damage (186). Try it yourself. 5HS and 6HS have very similar animations, 6HS might actually be better at catching techs than 5HS since it is JCable and 5HS is not.

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Now i agree with u :P But i saw before things like "6HS is made to kill OS" and such and i though that i missing something about this move ;p I know about that 6HS combo u mentioned but that can happen very rarelly (proper height needed). The best thing it could happen for a johnny is an air CH 6HS/HS then u can do whatever u want, thats what i aim for. OS's jump goes above 6HS so jHS will kill johnny. Same goes for teching i think and thats what i personally fear. Although vs Raziel's OS rushdown i didnt have much of a choice :P I've played tones of matches vs my friends Sol (badguy not OS :P ) and i found his 2D to be my worst nightmare. It went below my coins and it could only be stopped with JO 2S (went below fS, HS, 6HS,K) or just baited to gain the upper hand. I guess it would be the same with OS wont it?

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Excelence, it seems you are counter-hit by Johnny's 2H when you dash under his coin. As a JO player, I can try to give you pointers, good or bad, you tell us then if that works for you or not. Try dash breaking (dash then FD) because if he doesn't RC it, he will be in real pain as it has a lot of recovery on whiff/block. Even if he cancels it into 5D (2H only has a gatling into 5D), you can punish him, for instance CH Fafnir > combo > outch ! It might be distance specific and might requires a timing (depends on when and where you start dashing when he throws the coin before you FD) as FD will push you back more but there is definitely an opportunity to CH. Or you can try dash > 2D as it will make you slide under the coin and forward during the sweep (dash velocity), allowing you to avoid the coin and hit farther. Don't time it late as the 2H will stuff you in this case. Your best best is also to block the coin, he has a limited supply, let him waste them !

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Your best best is also to block the coin, he has a limited supply, let him waste them !

Yes this is a key thing. If Johnny doesn't have coins, his damage potential drops (unless he has 50% Tension and has been cranking your guard gauge or something).

Stopping Johnny from getting to Lv2 or Lv3 with his coins, although easier said than done, is going to pay off for you.

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lately, I've found this match to be extra resource-intensive, such that I need level 3 to gain any ground. L3BHB has been a massive asset when trying to get in. otherwise it's like trying to mess with a porcupine.

still very hard to deal with corner pressure. i basically just pray i have enough to dead angle and trade places.

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We got some old ass posts in this thread. To reiterate, the moves that get a lot of hate are: Johnny's 5K, 5HS, 2HS, 6HS. Your 2D goes under Johnny's 5K and 5HS. Fishing with your 2D is a bit of a guess, but I think the risk is worth it, considering the pay off you are looking to get, should you land a counter. Once you've discouraged 5K and 5HS with your 2D, we can move on to 2HS and 6HS, which are really non-issues. 2HS is a huge gamble with very little reward and 6HS shouldn't be hitting you too much anyways, as long as you aren't using any moves slower than your 2D. Past 2HS and 6HS we got 2K and 2S, which I don't think are particularly scary moves and Hos players don't seem to complain much about it. Oh and 2D, which is a pretty good move, but hardly unbeatable.

You don't need a lvl3 to get in. You just need Johnny to whiff a move. And there's still plenty for you to do when you aren't in. You can charge and build tension. I would suggest only charging to lvl2. Your special moves won't startup quite as fast, but Savage Fang is a hell of a lot better at two than it is at three. And once you have some meter, you can run Johnny's own game back at him with your forcebreak.

Also try experimenting with your 5P some. Your 5P doesn't have a lot of range, but Johnny's moves do. You might be surprised at what it'll beat out, at 'weird' ranges. 5K too, but I suggest 5P because it has less animation frames. If you whiff a 5P, not much of a loss. Most players wouldn't even know you whiffed anything till you're done recovering. But should you of activated a twitch from your opponent and got a move coming your way, you'll have time to recover and backdash to force a whiff, or DP or super or whatever.

I think where a lot of Hos players fuck up with this matchup is in philosophy. Johnny wants to play defense. Johnny could play offense, but then he'd have to deal with your Storm Vipers and random Gun Blazes and 6K's, nah fuck that. Johnny is staying on defense and is going to make you come to him. Make you deal with all his long range pokes. And this is where new players fuck up. They want their moveset to line up with Johnny's moveset 1:1. I did this move and Johnny did this move and beat my move and got a cool combo, so I should have some move that beats out that move and gets me a cool combo too, right? Nah, Order-Sol isn't that kind of character. When Johnny does A move, you aren't always going to have some answer that skips over B and goes straight to Cool combo. Some times all you get is 10 pixels closer to being "in". But you know, the closer you are to being in, the easier it becomes to get in. The game moves off of Johnny and on to Order-Sol. Less structure, more chaos. Less well defined zones and footsies and more gambles and mixups.

or you can just randomly spam fafnir

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Lately I am playing against to many Johnny players in only, I come here for read other people experiences, And I would like to share some of my opinions of this machup.

I read that too many people have problems with his preasure, yeah it is very hard to guard, but are some tricks to beat it,

he can make overheads D, essenga tk, other tk moves frc... jump anything,

low hits: 2D, 2K, mist finner low

and grab: 6K FRC, dash, mist finer cancel, other moves like 214 somthing XD grab

I found very useful 2D to bait too many ot this options, near to everything grab options and D, essenga.

for me this it my main tool for get out of the pressure of joh, you will get too many counter 2D > combo and I dont get scared of joh pressures anymore.

I Think the same that 4r5 Joh players usually try to get space for use his better range for beat your rushdowns, if he has lv2 mf you should try to make them waste it, if makes more easy the match if you are not inside your presure zone.

If your are not clore to him I found useful punish some of his moves with rock it, use 5S or rock it frame traps to get in. If you are close 5p or 2P its very usefull specially in frame traps

Begin the match with 6P sometimes punish some of his moves.

Yai, long time that I dont whrite in english sorry for my grammar mistakes LoL T_________T

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