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LM_Akira

Order-Sol vs. Axl

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Originally posted by Digital Watches:

(replying to excelence about SBing against Axl's 2HS and then doing Fafnir)

Um. Don't try to SB the second hit of 2H. It's a lot harder than it sounds. For one thing, the gap between the hits can be as low as 0 frames, meaning that the second hit will hit on the frame after the first one does. Secondly, the gap will vary based on how far into the first hit (which active frame) connected. Lastly, the move doesn't need a CH to stagger, so even if you can wiggle out quickly, getting hit by the back-pull of 2H is just free offensive momentum for Axl.

Probably a better idea would be to IB the first hit and FD the second, since this would presumably pull HOS closer. Either way, I'd call this a very disadvantageous matchup for OS. Keeping ground pressure, like most matches against Axl, is easy, but getting it in the first place is something that HOS doesn't really have very many tools to do.

Your best bet is to try to bait the Axl player into throwing something out that won't connect, so that you can get in, but due to HOS's low jumps, mediocre airdash, and lack of moves that will reliably beat out chains while moving him forward (or for that matter, even gain a knockdown from far away,) HOS just has one hell of a time getting in otherwise, and Axl has no reason to do anything but wait and see what he should throw out. Focus on tripping up the Axl and taking advantage of gaps created to get in, and most of all, once you're in, STAY THERE. Keep pressure going no matter what. Watch out for Housoubako and go for lows often to prevent it. Also keep in mind that a smart Axl will try to push you out with FD, giving him enough time to try to beat you out with 6K, 5K, f.S, 2H, or 2S (depending on the angle you come in from. Also watch out for 2K, which will go over most aerial and some grounded moves. If you suspect one is coming, go for a low j.H, which will hit Axl despite the "low profile" hitbox. Just as HOS has few if any tools to get in on Axl, Axl has few tools to beat out HOS once he's in, but that doesn't mean you don't have to be wary of attempts.

Some random things that might work getting in:

-I've seen j.H beat out Axl's chains on occasion, especially Axl's j.S.

-If the Axl is going for a combo instead of using optimal zoning spacing, it may be safe to try a SV to get a knockdown.

-If you can get out of Axl's reach, you can try to make the Axl nervous by charging your meter and trying to bait pokes to beat out with the charge burst.

All in all, this matchup is horrid for HOS, but definitely not unwinnable.

Lots more discussion can be found here:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3999

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Your main points of entry during the Axl fight are when he whiffs 5P, or when he whiffs 2P/2HS/Rensen (lol). Jumping is ill-advised until you make Axl realize that 5P is not going to stop you. Stay on the ground and utilize FD braking and 6P (yes, it whiffs/CHs 5P). Once he throws either of the lower pokes, you're in via jump or Fafnir (paaaaaaain). RI can also close the gap, but the risk is usually greater than the reward (even if it is a potential CH KD). Once you get in, Axl has to either DP, counter, or FD you away and escape. The former two options fall to lows (excluding the low counter, obviously), and the later two options fall to throws. I tend to avoid using highs/jump-ins, as 2S is amazing and 2K can low-profile under a lot of your crap. Axl's offense isn't too threatening. Aside from Rensen FRC mix-up and while-landing j.S into either Bomber or low, he doesn't have that much that you can't react to or SV/GB effectively. 3P is annoying when it's spaced properly and makes you want to jump into 2S/6K, but he doesn't get anything off of it unless it's a CH (meaning don't swing unless it's a Fafnir). 5K can beat a surprisingly number of your pokes, but in general it's not something you worry about.

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Your main points of entry during the Axl fight are when he whiffs 5P, or when he whiffs 2P/2HS/Rensen (lol).

Remember, however, that a good Axl will know that 5P is only really for punishing things/Anti-air, so throwing it out to whiff isn't going to happen often.

Jumping is ill-advised.

Fixed that for you.

Stay on the ground and utilize FD braking and 6P (yes, it whiffs/CHs 5P).

I'd say 6P is much better against j.S than 5P, for the reasons listed.

Once he throws either of the lower pokes, you're in via jump or Fafnir (paaaaaaain).

You'll have to get to mid-range for either of these options to be very effective, as IADing over anything at full range will usually let Axl block in time, possibly throw a 2S, 6K, or even TK FB (In the case of more flashy Axls) to AA you.

RI can also close the gap, but the risk is usually greater than the reward (even if it is a potential CH KD).

Usually rock-it doesn't get past low pokes, which makes it very sub-optimal to get in. Not to mention that it's pretty easy to housou on reaction if it's from even a slight distance.

Once you get in, Axl has to either DP, counter, or FD you away and escape. The former two options fall to lows (excluding the low counter, obviously), and the later two options fall to throws.

Remember that like any other character, there are also the other two options of going for 1fJ chicken blocking or IBing and trying to punish you (A surprising amount of HOS's stuff is throwable on IB.) In particular, 2K goes under quite a few moves even on the ground, and might also catch you off-guard.

I tend to avoid using highs/jump-ins, as 2S is amazing and 2K can low-profile under a lot of your crap.

That's the right idea. You pretty much have to know he'll still be in blockstun to come in from the air.

Axl's offense isn't too threatening. Aside from Rensen FRC mix-up and while-landing j.S into either Bomber or low, he doesn't have that much that you can't react to or SV/GB effectively.

Don't get baited by Raei (either one) or Rashousen though.

3P is annoying when it's spaced properly and makes you want to jump into 2S/6K, but he doesn't get anything off of it unless it's a CH (meaning don't swing unless it's a Fafnir).

Incorrect. 3P at max range can gatling into sweep, which is SCable and thus can start any normal combo. It also gatlings into 2H, 6H, 5H, f.S, and dust, which are all dangerous for different reasons, and gives a decent amount of frame advantage on normal block, and thus can set up for, and in itself be a tick throw.

5K can beat a surprisingly number of your pokes, but in general it's not something you worry about.

Remember that your priority is getting offensive momentum back, so getting poked out of things is not what you want to do. The danger of 5K isn't that it's particularly fast (about even with some of the worse jabs in the game, with 6F startup) but that it gatlings into basically any normal, meaning that if you get hit by or block it, you're taking a block string or a combo. I would also advice avoiding being too quick to SV on wakeup, due to how easy it is to bait with a meaty 2K, or a late 6H or 3P (Meaning they won't hit if you just stand there, but they will let Axl block your SV.

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I'd say the tick throw part of 3P is irrelevant if the Axl player is spacing it properly. It's only +2 on block, so at farther ranges you can react to dash throw attempts pretty easily. It's scarier more for the huge number of options he has from it and its sheer safety.

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I'd say the tick throw part of 3P is irrelevant if the Axl player is spacing it properly. It's only +2 on block, so at farther ranges you can react to dash throw attempts pretty easily. It's scarier more for the huge number of options he has from it and its sheer safety.

Well, yeah, there's that. :v:

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I just find this absolutely hysterical. You can trade with Axl's 2P, 2HS, and Rensen via 2HS. Even when you're outside of Fafnir range. If you trade with 2P you actually recover in time to do a running 2S, 5HS SJ IAD combo, or you can opt for a full dashing j.HS into Dust Loop, depending on distance to Axl/the corner/your own manliness. A little too risky to be a viable solution to Axl's zoning, but if Axl spams that fucking 2P all day and you want to be even more awesome than usual, go ahead and make them shut up at least once with this little protip.

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I just find this absolutely hysterical. You can trade with Axl's 2P, 2HS, and Rensen via 2HS. Even when you're outside of Fafnir range. If you trade with 2P you actually recover in time to do a running 2S, 5HS SJ IAD combo, or you can opt for a full dashing j.HS into Dust Loop, depending on distance to Axl/the corner/your own manliness. A little too risky to be a viable solution to Axl's zoning, but if Axl spams that fucking 2P all day and you want to be even more awesome than usual, go ahead and make them shut up at least once with this little protip.

All Order Sols should keep this in mind: It's what you do against scrub Axls, because it's flashy and cool and works. Much like my awesome 3-slow-overheads-in-a-row mixup, this will seldom if ever work on experienced and competent players.

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Lulz. Last time I fought order-sol, I realized something hilarious: A lot of HOS players seem to try to fafnir through gaps in blockstrings. Against Axl, a lot of gaps in blockstrings involve 6H coming out... which goes over fafnir.

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Fafnir fafnir fafnirrrrrr Wasnt that a Final Fantisy boss?... Or avatar.. On topic: Do you recommend slasbackin his normals when you try to IDA in? Or would that double hit mess HOS up?..

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Its more a question "Can you do it" instead of "Should you do it", if you can do it successfully then you should go for it. However, if you'd want to train that stuff, I'd say its a waste of time.

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Lulz. Last time I fought order-sol, I realized something hilarious: A lot of HOS players seem to try to fafnir through gaps in blockstrings. Against Axl, a lot of gaps in blockstrings involve 6H coming out... which goes over fafnir.

The hell was doing that? At BC? :psyduck:

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A thing I realised is the use of the one frame jump : against axl it's very usefull. Here why : - It instantly makes the 2P and 2HS of Axl useless. Each time you thing he will do a low poke like this one, do a one frame jump. If you are right you will be in air, if Axl does a 5P you will take it in the air gard if close, or not take it if not close. - After you jumped on a 2P/2HS, do air dash. You will arrive on axl when he's finishing his move and you'll be able to attack him. This technique is not ultimate, it's just usefull against axl players who like to establish a campsite. A axl taking heavy damage each time he makes a 2P/2HS that is predictable will stop poking without thinking and hesitate, and you'll be able to come closer more easily.

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A thing I realised is the use of the one frame jump : against axl it's very usefull.

Here why :

- It instantly makes the 2P and 2HS of Axl useless. Each time you thing he will do a low poke like this one, do a one frame jump. If you are right you will be in air, if Axl does a 5P you will take it in the air gard if close, or not take it if not close.

- After you jumped on a 2P/2HS, do air dash. You will arrive on axl when he's finishing his move and you'll be able to attack him.

This technique is not ultimate, it's just useful against axl players who like to establish a campsite. A axl taking heavy damage each time he makes a 2P/2HS that is predictable will stop poking without thinking and hesitate, and you'll be able to come closer more easily.

All this is really saying that is that predictable players can be punished for their predictability, but that's true in any matchup except I guess ridiculous crap like Bridget/Potemkin and May/I-no, but even then at least a little. If you are playing against a person who stubbornly refuses to get better, then yes, you will win for free, but that's not really a solid matchup strat. Generally Axl's good stuff is effectively unreactionable, and he can easily be the one reacting to you (which he SHOULD be doing if he's a competent Axl), so if he varies his tactics and isn't super predictable then yeah. This is a pretty crap matchup for HOS, and yeah OFJ is a good tool, but it's no magic get out of zone free card, especially since the aforementioned things it beats aren't even that useful because of how thoroughly 5P wrecks HOS' day...

Though it is totally true that if you do guess right and do manage to get through Axl's pokes the correct thing to do is rush that shit down.

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Yeah, this matchup is really gay unless you're upclose (where it subsequently becomes awesome). I suppose you could relate this to the Zappa Ghost matchup, where you need to be extremely patient and work your way in slowly through all the offensive holes. When you DO manage to get in though, keep him locked down. Go for tick throws since Axl has nothing to poke you with at close range, you'll pretty much throw him out of everything.

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Both of Axl's DPs have throw invincibility, and one of them comes out in 5 frames with low invincibility. Granted, if you bait them (and he doesn't FRC the S version) you get an awesome punish, but tick throws aren't the preferred offensive approach, especially considering most Axls will try to FD you out then escape via jumping.

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Oh, I didn't know about the invulnerability. DW and Stark have never used it for that before, at least while I was playing/watching.

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All this is really saying that is that predictable players can be punished for their predictability, but that's true in any matchup except I guess ridiculous crap like Bridget/Potemkin and May/I-no, but even then at least a little. If you are playing against a person who stubbornly refuses to get better, then yes, you will win for free, but that's not really a solid matchup strat. Generally Axl's good stuff is effectively unreactionable, and he can easily be the one reacting to you (which he SHOULD be doing if he's a competent Axl), so if he varies his tactics and isn't super predictable then yeah. This is a pretty crap matchup for HOS, and yeah OFJ is a good tool, but it's no magic get out of zone free card, especially since the aforementioned things it beats aren't even that useful because of how thoroughly 5P wrecks HOS' day...

Though it is totally true that if you do guess right and do manage to get through Axl's pokes the correct thing to do is rush that shit down.

Heeeeeeeeem... Yeah. Theory is interesting but in games you have also the psychological fact to take in account, from order sol point of view and axl point of view. OS will stress and lose if dominated by the pokes of Axl, AX will lose if OS manage to put a first combo and stay close.

I'm not a pro of the matchup, but as I said this is... a tool, and a very usefull one in my opinion that's all. I just realized that it was more useful against axl that other characters because of the long and horizontal pokes. You still have to use zoning options of OS (fafnir, lvl2 moves, Dash Break) with it.

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Both of Axl's DPs have throw invincibility, and one of them comes out in 5 frames with low invincibility. Granted, if you bait them (and he doesn't FRC the S version) you get an awesome punish, but tick throws aren't the preferred offensive approach, especially considering most Axls will try to FD you out then escape via jumping.

So he FDs your tick and then jumps?XD Isn't that as predictable as the tickthrow itself? Instead of ticking you can GB him(and it will hit him because he's FDing). Or you could do the tick and do an airthrow/5H CC.

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So he FDs your tick and then jumps?XD Isn't that as predictable as the tickthrow itself? Instead of ticking you can GB him(and it will hit him because he's FDing). Or you could do the tick and do an airthrow/5H CC.

Um... Gunblaze is stupid there. In general I don't respect Gunblaze as a move, but here's it's really dumb, because even the slightest pushback and the first hit doesn't hit, and given how much FD pushes back, with even two hits in a string before a gunblaze, you're just going to get comboed off of level 1, thrown off of level 2, and possibly thrown off of level 3 (even if the throw fails, they'll still get a guaranteed 6H which will end in neutral + you at lower life and sans level 3, and it's not exactly good for HOS to be at neutral v Axl anyway. So unless I'm missing something fairly big here, Gunblaze seems terrible here. Certainly, when I've had HOSes try it on me it fails pretty hardcore, but eh, maybe there's something I don't know.

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Gunblaze is excellent when used properly. In the case of ticking, off of a single FDed poke, Gunblaze can successfully cross up. So say that you are playing Axl versus HOS, HOS player runs at you to tick and you FD. If you FD his 2P, for example, he can immediately Gunblaze off the single tick and it will break your guard and launch you. You can counter it with throws, but you have to know the Gunblaze is coming, you cannot react to it.

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