Advanced/Expert Zappa play

[kanom]

since the dog has a high percentage of coming back after you're hit,and since most my enemies fear my dog,i often say when i'm hit, what goes around comes around

[Oiboi]

I dunno, that sounds like something that could trip someone up on occasion, but... 21F is still 21F. Do people really have a very hard time reacting to that on a regular basis? Especially if you lose raou and thus obviously don't have a dog covering you, that sounds risky as hell to try.

It works a lot more often than you think it would. I think the reason why it works is because the moves are so terrible that they just don't expect it to come out, especially when their expecting a Raou 5HS low hit to come out.

[Digital Watches]

It works a lot more often than you think it would. I think the reason why it works is because the moves are so terrible that they just don't expect it to come out, especially when their expecting a Raou 5HS low hit to come out.

Well yeah, but the whole point of blocking low and waiting for overheads is that overheads tend to be pretty slow and easy to recognize... and both of those overheads are. Like I said, I'm sure the surprise factor can catch people sometimes, but those are still pretty slow moves to assume people can't react to, especially considering how unsafe they are on block. I'm not saying it won't ever work on people, I'm saying the risk/reward is fairly bad.

[Phrekwenci]

When you get Raoh, start looking to throw your opponent. They are going to be defensive, looking out for key moves. That's when you toss them into the wall and start the loop.

[Oiboi]

When you get Raoh, start looking to throw your opponent. They are going to be defensive, looking out for key moves. That's when you toss them into the wall and start the loop.

This is assuming your opponent is twitchy or smart and uses grab invul moves as you get in their face.

Well yeah, but the whole point of blocking low and waiting for overheads is that overheads tend to be pretty slow and easy to recognize... and both of those overheads are. Like I said, I'm sure the surprise factor can catch people sometimes, but those are still pretty slow moves to assume people can't react to, especially considering how unsafe they are on block. I'm not saying it won't ever work on people, I'm saying the risk/reward is fairly bad.

Yeah, but the trick is that their looking for Raou's 5D to come out. They aren't looking for the normal dust, or 5HS or 6HS. 9 times out of 10, they won't register Raou's dissappearance soon enough to block high. On paper, it seems very high risk for little reward, but it's an option that Zappa can really use.

[Digital Watches]

Right, but weren't you just talking about how most people know how long Raou is out? It's not exactly a secret, and people do count down. Raou disappearing and you throwing out something FAST would be one thing, but it's just such a slow set of moves. I still disagree that it's going to catch people all that much more often than just the regular overhead. I also disagree that throwing out throw-invincible moves is that smart to do, since there are plenty of ways to beat throw-invincibility, not the least of which being, well, strikes. The safe way to get out of tick throws is to chicken block. EDIT: I guess I'm not phrasing this well. I think it's a really cool gimmick. But I think it's just that: A gimmick. Something that isn't all that solid, but that will trip people up occasionally. I don't at all mean to disparage the idea, I just think it's a little misleading to say that it's going to get people "9 out of 10 times" or whatever.

[DonPatch]

what would the practicality be in adding zappa's FB in towards raou's mixup? it hits high, only has 16F startup, and the large flash over his head may help confuse people into thinking it's raou still in some instances. basic setup, crank the guard gauge, throw a DA, rush in, 2P, 2K, if they've been hit by then go into an edguy loop, and if not FB. If it hits, combo into c.S, 2HS, j.P, j.K, j.P, dj.P, dj.D (221 damage on sol)

[Oiboi]

Right, but weren't you just talking about how most people know how long Raou is out?

It's not exactly a secret, and people do count down. Raou disappearing and you throwing out something FAST would be one thing, but it's just such a slow set of moves. I still disagree that it's going to catch people all that much more often than just the regular overhead.

I also disagree that throwing out throw-invincible moves is that smart to do, since there are plenty of ways to beat throw-invincibility, not the least of which being, well, strikes. The safe way to get out of tick throws is to chicken block.

EDIT: I guess I'm not phrasing this well.

I think it's a really cool gimmick. But I think it's just that: A gimmick. Something that isn't all that solid, but that will trip people up occasionally. I don't at all mean to disparage the idea, I just think it's a little misleading to say that it's going to get people "9 out of 10 times" or whatever.

You have a point, yes. I probably said that wrong myself; It doesn't really happen enough to really count as anything more than a gimmick for me. The reason is that I'll usually get a mixup, throw, or simply chip the enemy to death before I run out. But Raou lasts a specific number of frames, and even if you count the timing, it's incredibly difficult to determine the exact millisecond his gone. Aside from this, you can also tweak the timing by using a move just before he goes away (Like Edguy, 6HS), since it will not interrupt a current move to unsummon him, but he will disappear at the very end of the recovery frames. It's not a very tactical thing to know this, but you can still frustrate your opponent who suddenly second geusses their counting, then wham, overhead. For me, '9 out of 10 times' translates to the 10 times it ever occurs in a series of dozens upon dozens of casual matches. So yes, this IS a gimmick, but hey, zappa's a gimmicky guy.

what would the practicality be in adding zappa's FB in towards raou's mixup? it hits high, only has 16F startup, and the large flash over his head may help confuse people into thinking it's raou still in some instances. basic setup, crank the guard gauge, throw a DA, rush in, 2P, 2K, if they've been hit by then go into an edguy loop, and if not FB. If it hits, combo into c.S, 2HS, j.P, j.K, j.P, dj.P, dj.D (221 damage on sol)

Short answer is that the flash and sound of the unsummon is very easy to see coming.

Long Answer, yes, it's possible. Using the Darkness anthem is a good idea because it has a similar color to the FB, and it's fast enough to probably catch most people off gaurd if they aren't expecting it. Myself, I don't like unsummoning Raou, even on block it seems a bit risky and obtrusive. However, if you do it near the end of Raou's timer or if your the kinda guy who doesn't like having Raou, do it whenever you like. I don't see it working any more often than my 5/6HS gimmick, which pretty much comes down to how observant your opponent is anyways.

[DonPatch]

so if you take out the 2P, 2K and unsummon while DA is hitting them, it should be harder to see coming then. this is just another gimmick too, but it adds to raou's mixup, and has pretty good damage rewards if it connects. just gotta make sure the gb is maxed before trying it, but if you have raou that shouldn't be a problem

[Phrekwenci]

Anytime I am looking to connect with the unsummon, I do 6P. Doesn't matter what summon I have. If they block the 6P, they are blocking low and more than likely will get hit by it (that shit is fast, I don't see how anyone sees that coming). If they get hit by it, I don't unsummon and continue a combo.

[Zoogstin]

Yo guys. Assuming this works Oibi I think you should put this in the sword section. I think this a Fuzzy guard situation: You have your opponent in a sword blockstring. You have them block a 2HS (1hit) and then you jump forward. As you're falling you do j.HS which they should block then you FRC it and do a j.S. This is to fake out the opponent because after the j.HS (since you're falling) they'll probably want to crouch. This is where your jS will get them since they crouched and you'll land soon enough to go into a ground combo. As mix up you can just not FRC and land do a 2K.

[Phrekwenci]

You have your opponent in a sword blockstring. You have them block a 2HS (1hit) and then you jump forward. As you're falling you do j.HS which they should block then you FRC it and do a j.S. This is to fake out the opponent because after the j.HS (since you're falling) they'll probably want to crouch. This is where your jS will get them since they crouched and you'll land soon enough to go into a ground combo.

I think it's sort of tough to connect with a jS on a crouching opponent. I usually just go for a 236HS without the FRC or when I jump forward I'll IAD back with a jS to cover my tracks if they try a rushdown after blocking the string. That has been very effective and annoying.

[Zoogstin]

I think it's sort of tough to connect with a jS on a crouching opponent. I usually just go for a 236HS without the FRC or when I jump forward I'll IAD back with a jS to cover my tracks if they try a rushdown after blocking the string. That has been very effective and annoying.

I do that too but what I posted I think will work if Fuzzy guard comes into play. Sure they'll block low but their hitbox will still be in the standing position, not in the crouching position which is how fuzzy guard works. No what I mean?

[Phrekwenci]

Never heard of fuzzy guard.

[Oiboi]

Well, that's not too effective of a situation. Fuzzy gaurd is a specific issue that doesn't happen all the time, so maybe that's not the most reliable scenario. If your looking for mixup options, particularly in the air, j.HS FRC j.HS will catch most people who aren't exactly paying attention, but sword has better ground options. However, j.D works as a very weird cross up (if you jump in on top of them and do it, timed properly it will hit on the opposite side. Works best near the corner when they're not expecting it.