[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Eternal Blaze]

K about the fients Bacon mentioned, I've been watching Iwao's matches and he uses that quite often.

Stuff like

2a 2b 5b 236D~D

5b 2c 3c 236D~D

mostly followed up by 5b into more pressure. Looks like it can be used for pressure off of stuff that give some room so that their mashed normals wont hit you and your 5b will CH them.

Also do we have anything consistent off of non-CH 5C on aerial opponents? 6C doesnt seem to work and they flip out before i can get zettou j.B to combo.

[iBeeTrollin]

agreed. l originally thought it wouldn't be much of a problem, but oh how wrong l was. it really is like you have to feel your fingers press the right buttons.

l could understand him having difficult hitconfirms, wonky combos, and unrelenting defense should he screw up, but having a single move be this silly to whip out on a whim... honestly, it's surprising. never dealt with something like this in bb before.

hopefully arc hears our whining and does something about it

Jesus man it's not that hard, I hope they don't fix it. I like how nice it feels when you do it right.

[DerQ]

Well at least the game being strict on inputs has one positive point and that's to enforce better execution habits regardless of the game you'll play, it's not pleasing, but in the end it's good habits. But anyhow, it's kind of a tangent from Amane related discussion any further from here.

On another note entirely, I tested some invincible reversals to see if I could make them whiff after 236D~D while attacking. After that I got absorbed in some netplay for the rest of the evening. I'll still post what I got and when I'll have every character covered, I'll probably make a concrete post or add it to the main post of the pressure thread, that or if anyone wants to take the lead:

3C > 236D~D > 2B

• Amane can 6B to hit through or escape.
  
• Arakune can super through. You might get a trade depending on spacing.
  
• Azrael can growler, 3C or 6C, 623C guard point through, 623D guard point and use both his supers through your stuff. Guard points might trade if you chain into something else. It'll catch his front dash if you are far enough, but he'll teleport behind amane if too close. Beats 6A as well.
  
• Both of Bang's supers connect against this. 6D can be a problem especially due to teleports. j.D can dodge a point blank attempt at this. If you stay out of 2B's range, you can prevent bang from teleporting on mashed 6D drives using 3C. j.D will dodge it, but whiff against it as well. Other drives loses to low
  
• Bullet can go through if you are too close and she has heat with 5D or j.D. No point trying to try from a further distance as she stays still unlike other reversals.
  
• Carl's doll super and over drive super can go through. Making carl block, beats his doll/drive armor moves
  
  
  

3C > 236D~D > 5B

Catches Amane's 6B.

Arakune can super through. You might get a trade depending on spacing.
Azrael can 6A through it, growler will trade if point blank, else it's a free CH. It beats most options 2B can't beat. Supers still go through. Cannot reliably forward dash through.
Bang : Similar logic as 2B, less efficient. A higher amount of active frames might help beat guard point's active window, but they also easily let bang teleport. Plus there's less rewards than 3C.
Bullet can 5D through it on max heat. No point trying to try from a further distance as she stays still.
Carl's B command dash can go through, doll super and over drive super. Making carl block, beats his doll/drive armor moves

[Loli Bacon]

Things to note that are especially important with this character: the difference between an early and a late jump in. Late jump-ins give better frame advantage so they can't mash you when you land, so you can continue pressure. Early jump-ins beat anti airs, but are easily mashed when you land.

dash delay 6B/Throw is probably the strongest thing you can do with him for pressure.

Hariken feint into 214x is good to watch how your opponent reacts when you first start fighting. Get a feel for how they poke.

[STenSatsu]

For Gekiren on pad, the best thing I've found is that when you get to the 2 part of motion, just tip your thumb towards 3. Seems to be the most consistent way of doing it for me.

Man, relearning neutral is gonna be such a pain lol.

[Justice7541]

Im also on the pad also. Stopping my fingers at 3 is hard because one slight nudge in the wrong direction and raibu comes out and I get murdered loll. I just need to practice more I guess, gotta break the habit.

What kind of pad?

[sparkaura]

What kind of pad?

Just a regular Ps3 dual shock. I'm getting it down more consistently though. Gekiren is a wonderful tool against hakumen. My friend thinks the mu 65-35 in Hakus favor I think otherwise though.

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[Justice7541]

Just a regular Ps3 dual shock. I'm getting it down more consistently though. Gekiren is a wonderful tool against hakumen. My friend thinks the mu 65-35 in Hakus favor I think otherwise though.

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I use a PS1 pad which is more precise with inputs since the pad isn't pressure sensitive shit but I used to use a PS3 controller. As long as you make sure to stop cleanly at the diagonal it's not too hard. As long as you're not using the stick anyway.

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[vegta12]

Anyone finding hazama to be a little bit of trouble with him having such great movement. Also what do y'all use as a normal to punish something u feel that's unsafe. I hate the idea st.A doesn't hit crouch people lol

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[Nov Ganon]

Hey guys not sure where to post this but what are some good amane players I can watch thanks in advance

[DerQ]

Anyone finding hazama to be a little bit of trouble with him having such great movement. Also what do y'all use as a normal to punish something u feel that's unsafe. I hate the idea st.A doesn't hit crouch people lol

Depends on what you want to punish. 3C has decent range and startup for really unsafe stuff, a counter hit state can lead to good damage. 5C,2C,j.C are good for long distance stuff. 6B gives fatal, which is very desirable midscreen, probably more so than 3C. 5D counter hit on standing can give drill level 3. There's not one guaranteed solution to punish.

Also a lot of 5A whiffs on crouching, no need to hate that one in particular for that.

Hey guys not sure where to post this but what are some good amane players I can watch thanks in advance

They're listed in the video thread on the first post, excerpt :

Shadow

Hinane-chan

Jiro

Ora

Other notable names

Arukemi

Tomi

NT

SpinKing

Sonya-Chan

[Eternal Blaze]

I mainly hate that his A normals have NO range, you cant use it to interrupt pressure with gaps like other characters you have to take the backdash route or back zettou which sucks coz its wasted damage.

[Eshi]

I mainly hate that his A normals have NO range, you cant use it to interrupt pressure with gaps like other characters you have to take the backdash route or back zettou which sucks coz its wasted damage.

agreed, 5A is terrible except for hit confirming zettou jB. 6A is very nice though.

Just a regular Ps3 dual shock. I'm getting it down more consistently though. Gekiren is a wonderful tool against hakumen. My friend thinks the mu 65-35 in Hakus favor I think otherwise though.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Amane probably doesn't have any match-ups worse than 6-4. he's very well-rounded, just low damage and really tough hit confirms. Hakumen could be 6-4 or 5-5, it's a kind of awkward match-up and I need more xp.

[Bane]

I mainly hate that his A normals have NO range, you cant use it to interrupt pressure with gaps like other characters you have to take the backdash route or back zettou which sucks coz its wasted damage.

Chicken blocking with barrier or super jumping also seem to be decent ways of taking advantage of gaps in some pressure strings. The goal for Amane seems to be to escape pressure, not poke out of it.

[haketh]

agreed, 5A is terrible except for hit confirming zettou jB. 6A is very nice though.Amane probably doesn't have any match-ups worse than 6-4. he's very well-rounded, just low damage and really tough hit confirms. Hakumen could be 6-4 or 5-5, it's a kind of awkward match-up and I need more xp.

Haku is not a big deal, after playing it out more Nu and Tao are definitely the worse seeing how they can very easily get in and establish pressure that we don't have many answers for in the case of Tao and Nu just stops you from setting up and getting comfortable, winnable but hard. I'd say around a 7-3.

I'm not a fan of the stricter 623 input either, its honestly driving me away from playing Amane. So far there's not much I dont like about this game but I DEFINITELY hate this nonsense.

How is actually having to do the input nonsense, tighten your shit up.

[Eternal Blaze]

Nu isnt that bad, she's taking as much risk as you throwing out swords, plus she has low health so a CH 2C/5C can lead to like half her life gone. Plus she has no reversals unless she's in Luna mode (which she wont be in much as that mode is pretty booty in comparison). She can only CA out of pressure, she has a head inv move but that doesnt kick in till frame 4 and gets beat but a lot of shit.

Tao is pretty annoying though yeah, dunno about 7-3 bad.

Hazama and Noel are pretty nuts so far for me, seems they have good options against our stuff and theyre all over the place so its hard to start pressure on them.

[haketh]

True she has low health but the pay off for her taking risk is bigger than ours and she has a bit more on the side of defensive options than we do. Also starts of the round is important because a lot of our options don't exactly work out out the best at Start of the Round position while hers do. Need to grind the MU out more with NC Pain.

Noel I feel pretty comfortable against, not much Hazama experience. Need to play against Dacid next event I go to to get some more MU EXP.

[Eternal Blaze]

Idk if I agree with that, we have a reversal for 50 heat, she doesnt, we have zettou as well. Both characters have shitty 2A/5A. Her backdash is better and thats about it.

Plus at the beginning of the round you can 5D, what can Nu do about it?

Noel's 4D (?) goes through projectiles so using drills on her and drills resets are very risky which sucks, and her derpy pressure gives Amane a lot of trouble.

[DerQ]

Both v-13 and tao have super reversals as well. Both can pressure Amane making him block for some duration but so can we. Thing is that once you're in on v-13 and Tao, you can stay in with far less worries than against other matchups because they also lack defensive options. Add to that the lack of an escape for drill setups/resets, and it can be a steep hill for them to. I'd say v-13 is a better matchup than tao though. It's risky for her to try and set the tone. By that I mean her drive normals are much faster than Amane's ones, but you get to respond with whiff punishing if you guess right and then start your game.

Also v-13 can't do anything against 5D at the beginning of the round? Well with 17 frames of startup, nothing at all forces her to respect it. Jump, backdash, etc. Blocking it is not a threat as well, you don't apply pressure off of it, Amane will just distance himself from her and be at negative frame advantage. That's undesirable for us IMO

[haketh]

She has a reversal for 50 heat, Gravity Seed, her 2A is alot less shitty than ours and start of the round IAD Back 5D beats out Start of the round 5D from us. Zetou si useful but it's easily scouted. her reversal for 50 heat also doesn't take anything other than meter away. And that backdash is a big deal.

Yeah we can run some hard offense on them with our pressure if we get the start but getting it is harder than most otehrs an dthey benefit better from universal defense options than we do.

And yeah it's 4D you're talking about.

[Eshi]

Dora posted in his ask.fm a while back that Amane's best strength is that he doesn't have any really bad match-ups. So I'm very skeptical of any match-up being worse than 6-4. I definitely expect Tao to be a huge pain, though.

Also, DerQ has a really good point about them lacking defensive options. This is AMAZING for Amane because his 6D setups become unavoidable and he gets free chip all day.

[DerQ]

Actually that comment Dora made me wonder why he'd think that. When you look at a lot of matchups, it's a lot of times dependent on who gains momentum first. Outside of neutral, your defense sucks as Amane, but your available tools in pressure are there in large numbers even if it doesn't mean crazy fast overheads and a lot of characters have to expose themselves to risks. All of which can be anticipated to get out of your pressure.

What I do think is the main factor as to why you'll have a lot more 6-4 than favorable matchups is that more characters get to dictate what happens at neutral. Their normals are faster and have more explicit uses than the ones we have. I can poke with ragna 5B, but try doing that with Amane's normals and the first conclusion is "These tools sucks". Try finding a good poke on this character that doesn't have a huge flaw attached to it for that purpose. 5B stuffs well but has 11F startup and ok range, 3C is slow, 5D is slow, 2C/5C/j.C when whiffed are dangerous, A pokes suck in range, 2B is alright I guess but still has 11F startup.

My point is that we don't get to a definitive way to start offense without a well defined risk unlike some characters, therefore don't adopt that playstyle I suggest. What we do get to do efficiently is respond to what an opponent will attempt. A lot of characters have trouble catching us due to how you can move, a lot of characters have to be mindful about what they do when they're not in our faces because they don't want to get whiff punished and we can do it with ease. It's a strength that I don't think matches up to what the top tier can do in this game. An efficient way to set the pace of a match through guaranteed methods versus abusing what your opponent is doing by letting them do it is definitely not as good. I do think though that's it's the best way to approach this character nonetheless.

For instance, in that v-13 matchup. She wants to do 5D? J.C can dodge and if you land a counter hit, that's stupidly good damage. If she wants to send an anti-air sword like 6D, 2C can reset into 6D or start your offense, if you can manage 5C counter-hit, you can do 5.5k at the cost of your overdrive and no meter. Another example is carl, if he activates his doll, you can 2C her for free and zettou from there. It tags her out of her attacks and drains her life bar away. What's carl gonna do about it?

Letting your opponent do something, react, catch on and kill them for it is flawed in the sense that you leave your opponent open to do something to which you might fail to react or predict in exchange for a way to respond. But it's still sounds a whole lot better to me than playing as if my tools were excelling at something else. Patience, intuition, reaction and spacing is your best ally.

[STenSatsu]

I think the idea behind not many bad matchups is that you can momentum people so hard if you get one good 6d setup or a good OD round that it can cover many disadvantages. Though I also imagine that 'bad matchups' in this case is stuff like 7-3 rather than 6-4. Then again Dora also had Amane at like high B tier in that madman cafe list he did a while back so who knows. Personally, I expect Litchi and Jin to be the worst matchups. Both have very strong pressure games and meterless defensive tools. They also likely beat all your tools once they get into 5b range and hit confirm into much more damage more often.

[Nov Ganon]

Thanks so much

[DerQ]

Some notes from playing yesterday.

-Whiff punishing is just way too godlike (against zoners). I had a match in a local tourney against Kirbster's rachel and applied that gameplan as much as possible. Even though he won in the end, he stopped doing he'd normally do in every matchup and told me so after the match. That means he wouldn't summon george, pumpkin or lobelias freely. This was new to him and he had to adjust by trying to go in without projectiles for cover him like he's used to. From there, it's on me as an Amane player to react properly. In that last post I did, I said that letting opponents do their moves first and respond to that was less guaranteed, but if your reactions are on point and well trained, there's no way a character like rachel can get any offense going without you being able to react to his actions. Against rushdown it's harder though since they don't play from fullscreen.

On another note, had a lightbulb moment yesterday after remembering j.B can chain into j.2C > j.D. From j.B, I often find that you don't get the chance to hit deep enough to get the desired spacing upon landing and getting that spacing after leaves a gap to mash out of it. j.B > j.2C > j.D makes abstraction of all that stuff and is just super efficient since it increases drills. Increasing drills = losing patience while on the receiving end. I'm not sure it's air tight, but j.B > j.2C is a 1F gap. Got a lot of success with it when first using it, wonder if it'll stay like that.

Another thing I happened to notice with j.D that's really cool. I was trying to get rising j.D from forward jump to stay in and build drill, sometimes failed getting the range or jump cancel from 6A and I would just jump out of range for it to connect. I would be at 5B's range or so. j.D is active until landing, any opponent that tries to jump and airdash out lands in the drill that brings them back to the ground. It's stupidly efficient and more or less risk free while building drill gauge. Plus, since Amane jumps so high, you don't have to work at all to get in a desirable location while covering a lot of movement attempts.