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[CP] Iron Tager Video Thread

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Im going to love doing this, its so beautiful. :keke:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmpxcud4-jE#t=19m49s

It's probably the old classic "Hit Ada to extend your active frames."

oh i never knew about that.

@Tagertime. From what I've heard that 2D definitely could not have been comboed from using GF pull. I'm pretty sure the guy teched late on purpose. If not we should be able to do Really crazy stuff in the corner that would be easy enough to have been discovered already.

Your right he could have teched after the slide was over.

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I was just disappointed because the match show cased pretty much all of the ways Tager got worse. Tager would have been doing much more damage and had much better Abare in Extend and all of the cool things he did do were doable in Extend (and better). So I don't even know where to look for hype in that video.

@Tagertime. From what I've heard that 2D definitely could not have been comboed from using GF pull. I'm pretty sure the guy teched late on purpose. If not we should be able to do Really crazy stuff in the corner that would be easy enough to have been discovered already.

On the bright side I've been seeing (in other videos) cool safe jump ins as Oki instead of GF and that's pretty awesome because our oki normally requires a hard call out for DPs.

I would make the argument that Tager's the best he's ever been. I think his Abare is better now that he can convert a random j. A into Grand Punish. He can also go into his air combo from 3C xx A-Sledge, which makes his unmagnetized combo potential off 5A that much better. With a higher combo rate than in Extend, we still haven't seen the limits of what he can do. For one, I haven't seen a single Tager incorporate Crush Trigger into combos, or use his Crush Trigger much in general. I also love his new corner combos, which maximize his damage and keep the opponent cornered.

You mentioned the exact reason why I'm so hype for CP Tager; he has real grappler oki now with his ambiguous cross-up safe jumps. No more gimmicks, just pure terrifying mix-ups; this means we'll be landing a lot of empty jump command grabs if we condition our opponents correctly. To me it seems like Aksys want people to only neutral tech against Tager, as doing anything else will get you punished easily. I can't wait to jump into the lab with him on day 1.

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I would make the argument that Tager's the best he's ever been. I think his Abare is better now that he can convert a random j. A into Grand Punish. He can also go into his air combo from 3C xx A-Sledge, which makes his unmagnetized combo potential off 5A that much better. With a higher combo rate than in Extend, we still haven't seen the limits of what he can do. For one, I haven't seen a single Tager incorporate Crush Trigger into combos, or use his Crush Trigger much in general. I also love his new corner combos, which maximize his damage and keep the opponent cornered.

You mentioned the exact reason why I'm so hype for CP Tager; he has real grappler oki now with his ambiguous cross-up safe jumps. No more gimmicks, just pure terrifying mix-ups; this means we'll be landing a lot of empty jump command grabs if we condition our opponents correctly. To me it seems like Aksys want people to only neutral tech against Tager, as doing anything else will get you punished easily. I can't wait to jump into the lab with him on day 1.

That is a little confusing then, because literally none of those things happened in the supposedly super hype video. Nothing in that video and I mean nothing that actually happened in the video was better than it would have been in Extend.

I don't think you can really have an ambiguous safe jump cross up? You have to be too low by the time they recover for it to be ambiguous, right?

I'd like something off of collider with no mag when I'm not cornered, but as long as we still get 5k+ off of collidering them into the corner still I'll enjoy it.

I'm not sure if I agree Tager's abare is better, only because it is really really good in extend. Time will tell, but I'm gonna miss j.D CH combos.

(Conditioning opponents never made sense to me. Not the concept, but that it Is a concept. It isn't Really any different from any other mix up, but it get's special mention and terminology like it is somehow more complex. )

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Yes, you're right, you can't make it a safe jump and ambiguous at the same time. Making it ambiguous might mess up their DP input though, which is still nice. I'll miss CH j.D combos too, I've seen some players follow up with 6A in some situations though.

I'm sorry to hear that you're not as excited as me, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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What about that body slam move. It looks like it can make a lot of air combos still give knockdown and oki.

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What about that body slam move. It looks like it can make a lot of air combos still give knockdown and oki.

It seems like they can tech roll before you recover. I don't think that's very good oki, honestly.

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Yes, you're right, you can't make it a safe jump and ambiguous at the same time. Making it ambiguous might mess up their DP input though, which is still nice. I'll miss CH j.D combos too, I've seen some players follow up with 6A in some situations though.

I'm sorry to hear that you're not as excited as me, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I am excited. About the same things mostly too. I was just upset because None of those things were in the video, and what Was in the video were Tagers getting beat up because they kept getting hits they couldn't get damage/oki/a combo pick from, and their new tools being completely ineffective the whole match.

The only match Tager did well in was because he was using Old tech that still worked (though not as well)

@Darlos I really really wish Grand punish had more advantage on hit. I can really see myself rapiding it for better oki. The damage is good at least and I like that some j.Ds can combo into it so you don't even miss out on mag.

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I'd like something off of collider with no mag when I'm not cornered, but as long as we still get 5k+ off of collidering them into the corner still I'll enjoy it.
You get 2D -> Gadget pull. :^P

Yeah, I'm not super hype for CP Tager either, but it'll be forever until we can play so it doesn't matter yet. (^.^)

(Conditioning opponents never made sense to me. Not the concept, but that it Is a concept. It isn't Really any different from any other mix up, but it get's special mention and terminology like it is somehow more complex. )
This is what I'm here for - it's not a mixup and it requires a completely different set of skills like being attuned to how the OTHER person is learning during your match. A mixup is basically "do this and then choose from these following options, varying your choice by what you think/know of the opponent", whereas conditioning your opponent is dynamic and works differently every time and against every person. It's training the other person, in a very short period of time, so that you can have ONE virtually-guaranteed opportunity when you need it most. And it's amazingly rewarding because you get to make the other person look dumb. Hehehe.

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Collier is a combo and utility move now.

5A, j.A and air driver are anti-jump. They made his anti-jump a lot more reliable, especially with grand punish of whatever.

I mean, yomi collider was just so fucking FUN that I hate how bad it looks now, but yomi air driver will probably replace it anyway.

They also nerfed 720, which allows him to be a little bit more stable in the gameplay department IMO. Less polarizing gameplay leads to less high risk high reward guessing, which makes a character easier to balance. I'd still rather arc sys stop giving grapplers super throws, it's so much easier to make a fun for the other guy grappler when you dont, which means you can make grapplers not bad! :)

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This is what I'm here for - it's not a mixup and it requires a completely different set of skills like being attuned to how the OTHER person is learning during your match. A mixup is basically "do this and then choose from these following options, varying your choice by what you think/know of the opponent", whereas conditioning your opponent is dynamic and works differently every time and against every person. It's training the other person, in a very short period of time, so that you can have ONE virtually-guaranteed opportunity when you need it most. And it's amazingly rewarding because you get to make the other person look dumb. Hehehe.
I don't agree that is isn't a mix up. As long as it is dynamic it has to be a mix up because you opponent has the ability to think about what you're doing in ways you don't intend. Of course you may work very hard to try and make that difficult, but unless it isn't dynamic it is a mix up. It's a success rate in the end.

I know what conditioning a person is. I just don't find it all that special (In my opinion it is a little backwards to say "conditioning" since it implies you're choosing your goal in advance rather than finding favorable conditions in the flow of things). More importantly I find it deceptive for a lot of newer players. Every time some bad mix up becomes apparent there's always that one guys who says "So all we need to do is condition our opponents to not jump and we'll land lots of throws" or something equally meaningless.

Collier is a combo and utility move now.

5A, j.A and air driver are anti-jump. They made his anti-jump a lot more reliable, especially with grand punish of whatever.

I mean, yomi collider was just so fucking FUN that I hate how bad it looks now, but yomi air driver will probably replace it anyway

I'm not sure I understand j.A as anti jump (do you mean anti air? like air to air?), but I do like that 5A is still good.

The real problem with colider not coming together is that it our best anti air in a surprising number of situations and we're not even getting CT style combos. I'm not so sure that air driver is going to be that reliable. I haven't seen it put to good use and there's just too much I don't know about it.

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@Darlos I really really wish Grand punish had more advantage on hit. I can really see myself rapiding it for better oki. The damage is good at least and I like that some j.Ds can combo into it so you don't even miss out on mag.

Oh yeah, I nearly mentioned RC possibilities but thought it was obvious. Seems like we still get plenty of meter overall so it's not like it's an unreasonable option.

And yeah doing it off of j5D is pretty boss.

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I know what conditioning a person is. I just don't find it all that special (In my opinion it is a little backwards to say "conditioning" since it implies you're choosing your goal in advance rather than finding favorable conditions in the flow of things).
Then you don't really appreciate what conditioning a person is. :^S I certainly have chosen goals. I make it a point, when learning a character, to look for several "places to do stupid/risky things so that my opponent can learn I do stupid/risky things", places where it looks like I'm just making kinda bad reaction choices without thinking that don't really get me hurt all that much, so that I can do the proper thing when it counts and score a free punish. They're totally planned in advance and I make use of them frequently. In fact, I find it much harder to condition someone based on something that happens "in the flow of the match".

Some examples:

Potemkin - if you watch any old AC matches you'll see I frequently do Heavenly on wakeup with about 75% meter even if they haven't jumped. It's invincible on startup, safe if whiffed, and very hard to punish on reaction, so it's not as risky as it looks like it is...but what it does do is train them hard to stand on the ground and expect a superflash in those conditions, which top players (even Japanese) will learn in about 2 repeats of the situation especially if they get hit. What you don't notice is that, with surprising regularity, it later gets me a free wakeup Buster with 75% meter, enough for FRC 2S 2H Heavenly.

Makoto - this one's dumb but tailored specifically for 3s. Unlike every other Makoto ever, I usually do corner EX rushpunch, F+Short reset, then j.medium axe kick. Most people are conditioned to jump or DP to escape low/throw in that situation, so they'll get hit by the axe kick at least once. Axe kick is very hard to parry, beats or trades with DPs or jump moves and lets me combo for the kill, and is safe if blocked, so it's a good weird option there. If it keeps working, great, but if they end up blocking it then I get a free grab later, and if they end up jumping up to parry it I get a free sj.RH later.

Tager - uh. I had a bunch in CT but I can't remember any of them offhand and I haven't played seriously since then. Go BB.

The key is picking something that LOOKS dumb and LOOKS like you're on autopilot, but is neither as risky as it appears nor as reflex-y as it appears. Even a move that's super risky if expected can be virtually unpunishable if used correctly.

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I'm not sure I understand j.A as anti jump (do you mean anti air? like air to air?), but I do like that 5A is still good.

The real problem with colider not coming together is that it our best anti air in a surprising number of situations and we're not even getting CT style combos. I'm not so sure that air driver is going to be that reliable. I haven't seen it put to good use and there's just too much I don't know about it.

anti jump in this case implies preventing someone from jumping out of a block string. anti-air is more people jumping into you.

as a grappler, one of the most fundamental aspects of a stable and balanced character in the archtype is being able to prevent people from chicken blocking. this is why you never really see zangief placed as an outright bad character in the sf4 series. he has really, really good anti-jump. tager has had all sorts of problems with anti-jump. kanji does not have these issues, neither does potemkin. though potemkin was mostly bad because he was a kind of fair character in a sea of total ridiculousness until slash came out. kanji has a couple of petty bad matchups, but is otherwise a decent character thats just a little weak IMO.

but yeah, jA is good at meeting people in the air and keeping them in your hands. if you ch people out of some sort of jumping attack, or them trying to back dash or something silly, now you get a combo! :)

thats all keeping in line with what i perceive is, this tager is probably going to not be terrible because of this. will he be just as fun? IDK! but he looks a lot more stable and capable of being not bad. it took arcsystems a really long time to do this, for some reason.

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I don't he will be terrible but he certainly imo is looking bottom tier even with his tools. But there are two factors that determine whether or not we will win or not....1) spark bolt management and 2) OD use. Spark usage is common sense to us by now so I am not going to go into that. OD usage may be the key to our bad matchups. Due to the invul frames it will be infinitely useful to us in sealing the deal. But the problem is that we are going to have to manage when to burst and when to overdrive depending on our needs and our skill. This is what I believe are our keys based off of what I have seen so far.

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snip
You're right, I don't appreciate that. Still that's very clearly a mix up, you're trying to create a weird one that is uncomfortable for the opponent, but it isn't like there isn't anything they can do about it. You keep using the word virtually because it Is punishable. Probably not easily for a first time opponent, but that's not that different from Sol 2D RC 66 2D RC 66 623K. Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with doing that, so this part is just me agreeing to disagree, but to me if it is also a mix up then it is a mix up and if it isn't then it is a gimmick. I don't consider it special and I hate how it is misused all the time.

Potemkin, I think this is as amusing and interesting as the next person and it definitely starts with you so I stand corrected on that (Unless you started the HPBs by observing they had higher than baseline usefulness, which in my opinion is a better way to do it). I still don't find it that special though. It is just a weird mix up. I'll get into what I mean by that later.

Makoto, This is exactly the kind of situation I meant when I said it is just a mix up and it is backwards to call it conditioning. This starts with a tendency people already have, you found it in the meta and then you do what beats that until it changes their response and it turn into a regular old mix up in the end. The only thing that makes it special is novelty which in an ideal world wouldn't last very long and aganst some opponents might not last past the first moves, or might even result in net losses.

What I'm trying to say is..just like anyone who has ever played a grappler or any character with some mix up that is new to their opponent, I've strung people through their responses as much as anyone else, but I do it as a teaching experience because quite frankly I don't think it is a big deal and I want everyone to aspire to as high a level as they can, which means no secrets. That's a personal decision I made, as a consequence stuff like this goes no where special. I've also learned that not everyone needs me to teach them, and some people only need to see it once to infer the rest of the mix up. So I can't help but conclude it is nothing special and it doesn't go where I want to go.

Not saying I don't do it (or let you do it for me, knowing who has played you recently was really good data not that long ago) I just don't think it is special. I don't appreciate it, like you said. I'd like to say I never do ones like that potemkin one because they are expensive and goofy, but I've totally done almost exactly that one before.

The part I actually find upsetting, rather than over rated, is that people misuse it all the time. People tell me all the time how they use collider or will use air driver to condition people to get hit by 360B out of GF of all things.

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anti jump in this case implies preventing someone from jumping out of a block string. anti-air is more people jumping into you.

as a grappler, one of the most fundamental aspects of a stable and balanced character in the archtype is being able to prevent people from chicken blocking. this is why you never really see zangief placed as an outright bad character in the sf4 series. he has really, really good anti-jump. tager has had all sorts of problems with anti-jump. kanji does not have these issues, neither does potemkin. though potemkin was mostly bad because he was a kind of fair character in a sea of total ridiculousness until slash came out. kanji has a couple of petty bad matchups, but is otherwise a decent character thats just a little weak IMO.

but yeah, jA is good at meeting people in the air and keeping them in your hands. if you ch people out of some sort of jumping attack, or them trying to back dash or something silly, now you get a combo! :)

thats all keeping in line with what i perceive is, this tager is probably going to not be terrible because of this. will he be just as fun? IDK! but he looks a lot more stable and capable of being not bad. it took arcsystems a really long time to do this, for some reason.

My understanding is that 5B and 5A, kinda collider were the anti jump stuff. But if j.A leads into a tick throw set up then Totally. I want that. I've always been jealous of Bang getting air tick throw set ups. There's still a lot we don't know though.

I actually hated a lot of Kanji's anti jump stuff because there were ranges where like nothing would tag them if they IAD backward. I haven't played him in a while though, maybe I'd be ok with it having a fresh perspective.

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Currently updating the thread.

I wanna let you guys know that if the Tager player is unknown I won't type out "unknown Tager anymore" but just vs that character.

I am doing it to save characters. (funny because character limit was increased before I knew I wouldn't have to do it)

Tager player name is first regardless if he is on 1P side or not.

I am just giving you the heads up because from here on out that's what I am gonna do.

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New gamechariot has Yuumura running through people until finally getting stopped by another Tager of all things. Some interesting stuff like an RC collider combo, a pretty ridiculous corner combo, the return of the slingshot, and still no OD/CT use -_-.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19523729

Just goes to show: Tager's worst matchup is Tager.

More seriously: could Bullet's drive beat 6A super armor? It's blockable, but it's also throw-ish, so I'm not sure.

Also I lol'd when her counter assault whiffed vs 6A > 6B

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More seriously: could Bullet's drive beat 6A super armor? It's blockable, but it's also throw-ish, so I'm not sure.

Nah, 6A beats her Drive, I've seen it in one of the recent vids. I'll post a link a bit later if you want.

EDIT: Here it is.

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Basic rule is, if you can high-block it (Or it's a projectile), 6A and voltic can armour through it.

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Alright, cool. I was thinking 6A (with its seemingly faster armor startup) might be a nice reaction to Bullets who like to hop in the air and threaten with their circle-o-pain. I'd kinda feel like a chump if that always just forced me to go on the defensive.

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