[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Myoro]

Meter management, defense, Solo combo confirms.

 

I don't want to say the rest is incredibly easy, but by comparison they'll seem that way.

[NecroTheReaper]

Microdashes being necessary for pressure and learning to not spam ignis. Also, being killed more easily on defense than a lot of characters. His CA is his best defensive option, but only helps you if you get a CH. Led ley isn't a proper defense tool, lasting the same length or longer than most moves in the game. Vinum, stupidly having every attribute in this game, along with having a terrible hitbox, gets OS's by a loooooot of moves. Hakumen 6B comes to mind. Backstep was once upon a time good, now it should only be used as a neutral tool to distance yourself.

[susano]

I'm not really new to Relius (messed around with him in Extend/CS2) but I have no clue about his CP stuff. I know there's a combo section but how does one start learning about this creepy dude? :P

 

And Myoro, you bastard. I blame you for this...for no apparent reason. :3

[NecroTheReaper]

Learn 5B>3C>6D>j.B. Leads to everything as far as pressure/mixup is concerned. You just get more gimmicky from there since his mixup is kinda straightforward. Also leads to combos easily, either in the corner or midscreen. 3C>6D>j.B>2C>6C>41236B midscreen and 3C>6D>j.B>2C>236C>214A corner.

Lots of oki options. Standard is 214C since it catches everything and puts them in blockstun for a long time. From there its either being respectful to their defensive options with block+6D (I need to use this more) or getting more gimmicky. 236D is the standard for unblockable setups since its so easy to time on wakeup. Very effective against Noel. Usually you'll set up oki after 3C or 4D, but if you wanna go for a safer UB setup, 6C>236D safejumps but is kinda telegraphed.

These are the two things I can think of that are kinda necessary for people new to Relius, but there's more.

[Iron Savior]

When doing 3c>6d>j.b, you can input the 6d as 9d and you will jump with Ignis covering you

His 22x is reealy good, the c version catches a lot of people unaware(sometimes multiple times in a row), and the b version is good for stopping people who charge at you

People can grab you out of 236a, do don't spam it, and if you have Ignis out, you can use any of her attacks that isn't a special, 2d has armor in it so it is also good for oki

[NecroTheReaper]

Not to mention 236A can really only punish dp's off a successful ley. Some character specifics are able to be killed this way if you read properly (example: Mu/Jin 6C).

22A even has its uses against characters that can cover distances very quickly such as Rachel. Not somethin to use too frequently, since its -9 on block and will possibly leave you open afterwards.

Somethin I need to practice a bit more is jump cancelling 3C into barrier. So many people burst this should be burst bait, yet I never barrier.

[Myoro]

I'm not really new to Relius (messed around with him in Extend/CS2) but I have no clue about his CP stuff. I know there's a combo section but how does one start learning about this creepy dude? :P

 

And Myoro, you bastard. I blame you for this...for no apparent reason. :3

 

Well I'd better take responsibility for no apparent reason, shouldn't I?

 

From CSE to CP.

 

We lost some character combo rating, as a result you'll never see Relius break 5000 meterless, and he's neverever gonna do 9000+ without negative warning and or danger state. This means we're supposed to prioritize our Ignis spending on pressure, neutral, oki, and mix-up most likely.

 

New to CP is GAD LEIS, (41236B)  the miracle jack-knife that makes Relius' solo combos possible, gives damage to normal combos, and is plus on block to boot! New to CP1.1 is the ability to combo Gad Leis into 3C and get knockdown and an improved hitbox making stuff like [5B>6B>j.B>j.C>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C>superjump>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B] possible!

 

Also new to CP is Geara Lugia (22A/B/C) A useful harassment move, it lets Relius establish a full screen presence even without Ignis. 22A can be used in combos after 2C or 6C for a makeshift knockdown. 22C can be used similarly after 236C~214A (though I generally just 236C~214B TBH.) 22B/C can be used to harass zoners optic barrel style.

 

New to CP is Crush Trigger (5A+B), As you might expect having Ignis attack while Relius sets up a crush trigger is effective in both combos and blockstrings. 1000 damage that ignores character combo rate is nothing to sneeze at, put this in for that extra 600ish damage oomph in your combo.

 

Tus (214C) now tracks and is quicker, much quicker. Unfortunately it is not as + on block or damaging as it once was, but I'd say it's still an improvement. Tus is so quick in fact that you can throw it out and she'll be on the opponent in no time, if they block then you can get in and start pressuring for free. If they get hit by tus you can do a Bnb that does 300ish extra damage.

 

(214D) now useless, use 236D for unblockables.

 

Increased game gravity makes 5B>3C>6D+jump>j.C>665B>3C>repeat an airtight blockstring that only stops when Ignis dies... if done right. getting them in this loop and adding variations on it such as 2B/6A/other shenanigans.

 

When you're starting to learn Relius Id practice these combos, not to be used in battle but to help you with the difficult parts in his later execution:

 

5B>[6D>665B]x7>3C>632146D

 

^this will teach you how to use 6D and microdash in conjunction to start/continue pressure. even from max range 5B can go into pressure by doing 5B>6D>663C>jump+6D>falling j.C>66B>stuff.

 

 

5B>[5C(2hits)>jump+6D>falling j.C>665B]x3>5C(2hits)>3C>632146D

 

^This will teach good timing for 6D+jump and falling j.C>microdash. also 3C>632146D is an important combo finisher too.

 

For Bnbs try these!

 

Midscreen: (any thing less then 4 hits)>3C>jump+6D>j.B>2C>6C>41236B>665B>5C(2hits)>superjump>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B>airdash

 

^This has great damage corner carry and Oki and is one of the most flexible combos ever. If you confirm an air hit into 2C you can pick up the combo from the 2C in this one and get similarly great damage and corner carry.

 

If you have 4 or more hits before the 3C or have a jab starter or dont have enough IG for j.214B try this modification!:

 

(5A or 4+hits or whatever)>3C>6D+jump>j.B>2C>6C>41236B>3C

 

Corner: (anything less than 4 hits)>236C~214A>665C(1hit)>jump forward>j.C>j.236C~j.214B>falling j.B>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C(2)>4D>3C>(optional distortion)

 

^This is our corner Bnb and our highest damage getter usually.  costs 3000 IG. if you have a jab starter or 4 or more hits before the 236C you have to get rid of the 41236B>5B>5C(2) and go straight from the 6C to the 4D. if you have 3 hits before the 236C you only need to get rid of the 5C(2).

 

I have my own versions that I use to save IG which are:

 

5B>3C>236C~214A>665C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236C>5B>5C(2)>4D>3C which costs 2000IG for 150 less damage than the standard Bnb off a 5B confirm

and

5B>3C>236C~214A>665C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C which costs 1000IG and only does 500 less than the standard corner Bnb off a 5B confirm

 

Hope this helps! ^_^ If you need more data look at Lich's in progress FAQ and the Combo thread. Lich is an awesome dood with awesome ideas so you'll get some awesome stuff there, and Necro and I have been putting our blood sweat and tears into the combo thread (I don't think there's a single post not worth reading there)

 

Also be sure to check out Lich's matches as well as RYO's to see the various things that make Relius powerful in action! (RYO is kinda like the god of Relius players. I aspire to be a match for him one day.)

[NecroTheReaper]

I wouldn't say 214D is completely useless. Its good to use against hakumen, cuz he has limited options to beat it. Over all though, Myoro has a good assessment. Really the first thing to do is see what you have issues with xD my biggest issue is pressing C.

[Myoro]

I wouldn't say 214D is completely useless. Its good to use against hakumen, cuz he has limited options to beat it. Over all though, Myoro has a good assessment. Really the first thing to do is see what you have issues with xD my biggest issue is pressing C.

 

Right it snipes Haku shields, but that's about all 214D does (It does kinda have some uses against Kagura too. If he's crouching a ways away chargin' his DP and waiting for you to approach him you can use this move to make him stand and lose his charge while you rush in.)

 

@Necro there's nothing wrong with pressing C, 2C is still my main way out of the defensive too, you just have to smartly press C. Big rewards are tasty for Relius because he's a momentum character. The quicker we turn the defensive around into a good situation the better our forecast for victory is.

 

Don't get down on yourself for pressing C, just press C in situations where you know you have a good chance of winning, and block, barrier, CA, vinum, and press A and D in situations where those win too.

[NecroTheReaper]

But I even tech with C xD I need to use AB so I don't fall for air unblockable reset, or not falling for obvious resets (lookin at you Bang).

Seriously though, all this talk about defense makes me cry at led ley. I was thinkin about your idea from earlier with 236A and 236[A] being new moves, but 236A being grab invul at like a 15-20f duration.

[Myoro]

We need to experiment more with wake-up Dash-Ley. I swear I've messed up Led ley baits and throws by phazing straight through them and making their hit boxes do weird things.

 

For instance Ragnas 2B meaty>5B to punish ley: I dash-ley'd through it and the 5B came out but went toward the corner and I who was behind him now got a 5500 5B punish for the win.

 

I could have SWORN I managed to defeat a grab in the very same way.

 

We need a way to discourage immediate grabs though as I think they'll still beat dash-ley, how do we punish grabs on our wake-up normally?

[NecroTheReaper]

I don't think you can outright punish wakeup grab with anything other than vinum or astral. Backdash avoids it, but the nerf to our backdash just makes us avoid their mixup. You could do j.C CH>j.214B and get either a good damage pickup or oki, but thats only if j.C CH's.

Ive also had a lot of success with dash ley, particularly as a round starter move against certain characters like Kokonoe. Definitely needs more experimenting, but it seems like a decent option at the very least.

[Myoro]

Necro! Let's test TKj.236C to punish wake-up throw! I'm hoping it doesn't whiff on any standing hit-boxes, but It's gonna be lulzy as heck if it works.

 

if we rapid it I wonder if we could get a cross-up combo that puts em back in the corner...

[NecroTheReaper]

Just note that the recovery on grabs is different from character to character, though this may only affect if you get a CH or not. It hits carl half the time, so I imagine it hits everyone. Carl's grab animation is weird and sometimes it wiffs over his head. I guess its an ok option, but that would be a hard callout and would lose to any meaty setup.

Also, interesting find. 6A>RC>j.B is a fuzzy on taller characters.

[Myoro]

Yeah, I'm kinda hesitant to do Rapid combos for it because I feel like there isn't a situation where you would use the 50% gauge for vinum or CA instead...

 

Even so I'm envisioning stuff like TKj.236C>rapid>airdash>j.D>j.B>662C>6C>214C>jump over>stuff...>236C>214A>663C>profit.

 

I feel like it could be useful against jumps meant to bait vinum as well because j.236C>Rapid>airdash>j.B>j.C might get you some pressure.

 

I think TKj.236C is Atomic collider level of callout risky or even riskier. Still nice to know we've got options, even if they're bad ones.

 

Relius has few defensive options, so I feel like we should push the effectiveness of our moves to the max to compete with other character's defenses.

[killeriori]

Relius CMV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqQ9MmPW7nE

[Myoro]

Excellent CMV, we'll have to translate those combos to our combo thread and that Vid to our video thread in due time. I wonder how optimal some of those are though... They're pretty heavy cost but they do some pretty amazing damage.

 

as an aside, I need to remind Necro and the rest of you who will listen to pray at your bedside that Relius doesn't get any nerfs in the patch that will add Celica and Lambda, take away Nu's luna form, and do god knows what else.

 

If we all wish hard enough, maybe we'll get head I frames on our 6B for christmas, or something even cooler.

[NecroTheReaper]

I think the worst thing they could do to Rel would be nerf his already "meh" mixup options or Ignis' cost. Overall, I feel he'll stay in the same place as far as tiers go. Hopefully instead of nerfing Relius they just buff the rest, but thats sone hopeful thinking being directed to Arc. I am biased, but I feel Relius is a fairly balanced character. I feel the same way about Azrael though, so that might piss some people off xD

[Myoro]

I feel like I may spiral into despair if they change the way his combos work too much in CP2.0. I put so much time into solo combo making and IG cheap combos, and I was just beginning to get 2C/6C>236C>3C/5B combos down with some consistency...

 

There'll be new things to play with more likely than not, and I'll survive so long as 3C keeps being jump cancel-able on block and hit.

[NecroTheReaper]

What could they change? Unless they remove the 2C>6C gatling, I don't see how they could really change his combos. Though removing that gatling does sound like something that Ark would stupidly do. No AA confirms, nothing into 6C, meh.

[Myoro]

Change the properties on a couple moves here and there, delete my midscreen solo combos by making j.B/j.C/6B make the opponent go too high up. Make 5C or 3C not jump cancelable, decrease hitstun or increase pushback on anything.

 

There's a lot they could do, they could even put in a new move for new combo routes while making the old ones impossible, non profitable, or inconvenient, and also make us rely on Ignis more. For one they could make our confirms a lot harder or costly while making us actually have to choose between confirming or continuing pressure.

 

Many things could go wrong, but I suppose there's no point worrying. I guess I'll just work with whatever we get.

[NecroTheReaper]

For now lets think about good things. Like imagine if 6B became jump cancellable on block? It could be used for a lot of frametrap mixup since its only -1 on block, and not a lot of people expect it. Will it add a ton to our mixup? Hell no. But its an idea.

I think a cool idea would be a 623B/C input for a diagonal Leis that can be used to confirm 2C AAs, either FC or non.

[StylisH]

For now lets think about good things. Like imagine if 6B became jump cancellable on block? It could be used for a lot of frametrap mixup since its only -1 on block, and not a lot of people expect it. Will it add a ton to our mixup? Hell no. But its an idea.

I think a cool idea would be a 623B/C input for a diagonal Leis that can be used to confirm 2C AAs, either FC or non.

6B into 2B/j.C/j2D fuzzy would be nice.

[NecroTheReaper]

Another cool idea would be to make lafino tk-able. I'm assuming the frame data is off minimum height for how + it is, so if it were tk-able, you could either fall and do 2B or IAD and do j.B>j.C. also reduce its cost back to 1500 or its startup back to 20. For how skinny and slow it is, plus its bad on wiff, it wiffs waaaaay too much for costing 1/5th of ignis

[StylisH]

Another cool idea would be to make lafino tk-able. I'm assuming the frame data is off minimum height for how + it is, so if it were tk-able, you could either fall and do 2B or IAD and do j.B>j.C. also reduce its cost back to 1500 or its startup back to 20. For how skinny and slow it is, plus its bad on wiff, it wiffs waaaaay too much for costing 1/5th of ignis

Noel, Bang and Hakumen would have a field day with this. Would be cool to use though.

HEY ARCSYS, HOW ABOUT A FASTER 6A HUH?