Order-Sol vs. Zappa

[Sesshyru]

The Dogs and the swords and the orbs and the big glowing bigness of death and dismay!?! What to do >.>? I also noticed a lot of my attacks just didn't land. Crazy inv. frames or something..

[reaVer]

Zappa is low profile with most things he does, so that already excludes any use of special moves, except for fafnir and BRP. If you'd sate your problems more accurate I'd be able to help more.

[LM_Akira]

lol beat me to it, I wanted to started this thread quite soon actually. Some pointers I can think of for the time being... The main concern when fighting Zappa is having to deal with Raoh. Certain moves that Zappa has in unsummon and Ghost/Dog/Sword summon mode will give him orbs. Once he has 8 orbs, he can summon Raoh, which is going to make your life a major pain for the 14 seconds or so he's around. If you know which moves to look for (which give Zappa orbs) you'll know which moves you should try your best to avoid being hit with. Cutting down hits taken from these moves will ultimately make it harder for Zappa to summon Raoh, which ultimately makes your life easier (yeah, easier said than done I'm afraid). Zappa's Centipedes (236P) acts as his summon move. On hit it gives 3 orbs and knockdown. If you trade with Centipedes, Zappa will still get 3 orbs (3 orbs is the most you can get from a single move). The move itself is basically a grounded dragon punch and as such can be baited. When use in combos it will still give 3 orbs, hence it's possible for Zappa to RC this move multiple times (twice in fact) within a combo to get "instant" Raoh. Zappa's force break 214D will unsummon whatever summon he currently has and will give an orb on hit (it's also an overhead). - Actually, I will add more to/edit this post shortly, I will write up things more coherently when I have the time.

[Sesshyru]

Yah, he slaped me into the corner and did that thing 2 times and got instant uppercuts of pain and desolation. Also to be noted that its so hard to hit him. After like 5 matches I decided to try and zone him, but the 5S went right over his head, and when I tried to hit him he'd rush in and do the centipedes and have some kinda invincibility. The dog lockes you in the corner, the sword attacks from sooooooo far away, but I have noticed that you can just RI in most of the stuff or go in low (2D); the ghosts, I donno what they do he didn't use them much but when he did I got hit for no reason, didn't even see golf balls. Also to be noted, the dogs bite is unblockable if hes in the corner same as you thats messed up. And that stuff that comes outa his back can still hurt you even after it hit the ground, which stops so much pressure.. I dono much about that glowing armor thing, I always evaporated when it came out. Went from 60% hp to 0 in 4 moves, all in the same combo. Also the sword gets orbs lie nobodys business.

[Phrekwenci]

This happens to be one of Zappa's better match-ups because both characters need to "charge" to be able to produce more and certainly better attacks unlike many other characters that have everything from the start. Dog: a big mistake with the dog is that opponents try to hit the dog. The goal is to hit Zappa, it'll get rid of the dog and cause damage to Zappa. Hitting the dog accomplishes nothing other than effectively canceling his summon to be able to summon again. Not to mention most Zappa players tend to be offensive with the dog more than Zappa, so you should be able to hit Zappa atleast once with a simple mixup if he is trying to position the dog. The ghosts are a bitch, plain and simple. One of your better options is probably the ground viper (the alpha blade thing) to bypass what he throws and possibly hit him on the way. The sword is also trouble in the hands of a good Zappa. Though most of the time that projectile thing HOS has will stop it, even by hitting the attack itself. But lucky for you, the sword is usually a Zappa's worst summon so you shouldn't have too much trouble with it as long as you have a quick IAD when he's stuck in frames.

[reaVer]

This happens to be one of Zappa's better match-ups because both characters need to "charge" to be able to produce more and certainly better attacks unlike many other characters that have everything from the start.

That's not true, Order Sol needs charge to get more damage and lvl3 turns him into more or less a slayer copy where every poke combos into decent damage. This however isn't a requirement to get his game going. If you look at KZO for example, who works without charge, he plays the game in an entirely different way then say 0, who works with l3. Both OS players produce results, and perhaps this year both will qualify. So usually it's not a disadvantage that's forced upon the OS player, but a disadvantage the player decides to have.

I'd recon GB would work once or twice, but say Zappa is launching his first ghost and OS doesn't hit jack with the GB, he ends up right next to zappa, who gets a free combo and a ghost on OS. Next to that, vs any character that is wary: they can kill your gun blaze even if you're done. This means even if the flame is at it's peak, you get hit by 2P, that thing dissappears, doing no damage whatsoever, I think even with 3 flames out, you'd see those dissappear by a mere 2P, so understand the risks you take there.

[excelence]

The ghosts are a bitch, plain and simple. One of your better options is probably the ground viper (the alpha blade thing) to bypass what he throws and possibly hit him on the way.

the only problem dealing with Zappa+Ghost is ... "zone". it's very hard to get the spacing right for GB ... well it's always hard against those who have long reach for OS ... for me i do fd brake and fake Jump pressure make him throw all his ghost and he's good to go ... i think . with unsummon FB moves/Tension it's a big pain in the neck

The sword is also trouble in the hands of a good Zappa. Though most of the time that projectile thing HOS has will stop it, even by hitting the attack itself. But lucky for you, the sword is usually a Zappa's worst summon so you shouldn't have too much trouble with it as long as you have a quick IAD when he's stuck in frames.

umm when? ... when he do the charge, he can feint it, and i need to gamble if i want to punish it, if not i might got caught in his Upper Frc/Rc combos

the only times i certain is when he do something stupid like that rolling jump to get an overhead which is an easy punish with GB

and i'll take note if that BHB can deal with most of his sword stuff

vRaoh : his only weakness that i know is... he didn't have any mix up, just watch out with his j.hs/2hs/6hs, since it comes out of nowhere and will shave a massive ammount of life u has with his Edguy combos upon hit... btw Fafnir has longer reach than any of his melee attack, not sure how to deal with Darkness Anthem thought

[Tsak]

the main problems in this matchup are -Sword it can shutdown alot of your options if hes close with it there is no really reliable way to get out of the sword pressure -Ghosts zone zone zone zone + more zone yeah thats always bad for hos

[Phrekwenci]

umm when? ... when he do the charge, he can feint it, and i need to gamble if i want to punish it, if not i might got caught in his Upper Frc/Rc combos

Nearly everything Zappa has with the sword causes him to be stuck in frames and all of his FRCs are at impact. So if it didn't happen at impact, there's a good chance he's not canceling it (this mainly goes for the uppercut since the FRC for the swipe is useless without impact, and hardly anyone can figure out the timing to correctly use the sword rush FRC).

Yes, you do have to worry about the uppercut. I guess I can't speak of it because I never use it. But the HOS I fight is fast enough to catch me in frames of a prior move to IAD over and cause damage. Even if I used the uppercut in my match in general, I'd be stuck anyway.

[Hintalove]

2h is the only move that I'd say has major vulnerability on whiff. Most zappas wont throw out the sword dp with out the intention to frc it. Besides being very vulnerable to fafnir, the sword really doesn't have too many weaknesses except being a little slow.

[excelence]

duh the cross up games was never crossed in my mind ... i'll try ib'ing the charge and iad over ... thx

[Sesshyru]

vRaoh : his only weakness that i know is... he didn't have any mix up, just watch out with his j.hs/2hs/6hs, since it comes out of nowhere and will shave a massive ammount of life u has with his Edguy combos upon hit... btw Fafnir has longer reach than any of his melee attack, not sure how to deal with Darkness Anthem thought

Pff thats not a weakness, its a trade in. Traded useless mixups for somethin that even on block makes you go... Sssssssss..... ahhhhhhhhh....

Would one agree that a point of the sword is that it keeps HOS away from zappa? Also, I have noticed that in the block string pressure w/ the dog in teh corner, theres a small windo while blocking to kick the hell outa that mut, on the 3rd time the dog gets rdy to lunge his head out, the zappa player is too far out to stop you from kickin that dirty thing and you can get right back into blockin the next stuff comming.

[Hintalove]

The main point of any strategy executed against hos is to keep him away. Any place that isn't "away" is in hos' strong zone. As for poking the dog, I think the zappa you fight might be a little uncreative with his blockstrings.

[reaVer]

Euhm, he is the Zappa:P

[LM_Akira]

Yes, there are plenty of corner options that Zappa has with Dog summon that can keep you pinned down for quite some time. Dog Bite loop is something that springs to mind as well as the IAD stuff (block strings where the Dog is hitting you and Zappa loops IAD into ground strings).

Note that you can only hit and destroy the Dog as it is being controlled by Zappa and doing a move i.e. if you hit the Dog when it is sat idle and doing nothing, you will not get rid of it. If you hit it as it is being commanded to do something, it'll disappear.

Euhm, he is the Zappa:P

Ummm no, Sesshryu is the Order-Sol player describing how he escapes Zappa Dog block strings, Hintalove is telling him the Zappa he plays against is not creative enough with his block strings to keep him pinned down.

[reaVer]

Ah, misinterpreted, my bad.

[excelence]

Pff thats not a weakness, its a trade in. Traded useless mixups for somethin that even on block makes you go... Sssssssss..... ahhhhhhhhh....

Would one agree that a point of the sword is that it keeps HOS away from zappa? Also, I have noticed that in the block string pressure w/ the dog in teh corner, theres a small windo while blocking to kick the hell outa that mut, on the 3rd time the dog gets rdy to lunge his head out, the zappa player is too far out to stop you from kickin that dirty thing and you can get right back into blockin the next stuff comming.

i'm guessing that u're actually try to stuff up his moves as it does sent u far away on ch ... well fight this one with the same tactic u go v Johnny

[LM_Akira]

vRaoh : his only weakness that i know is... he didn't have any mix up, just watch out with his j.hs/2hs/6hs, since it comes out of nowhere and will shave a massive ammount of life u has with his Edguy combos upon hit...

With regards to this, Raoh does have a high / low oki option against you with 5D and 2HS. Both have similar startup and active time and both lead into massive damage combos (Raoh's ID after 5D is really easy and 2HS floats on hit for followup combos). Both have a similar-ish animation too, so unless you learn to recognise which move is which, you'll most likely take a lot of damage from either situation.

Depending on how the moves are used, you could reversal backdash/special against this mixup but it's a risk.

If Raoh is out and Zappa has over 50% Tension, don't ever consider jumping towards him, anti air Edge RC will most likely win the round for Zappa (it has a ridiculous 4F of startup only). You could always jump forwards and FD but that won't really put you in any sort of good position.

[Sesshyru]

Yep, and if he gets you in the corner he can float the 2 hit hado and so some other meanness. And I don't think he needs 50% tension to 4x demi-god uppercut you to the edge?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If he already has you in the corner and hits you high in the air with Last Edguy, then he doesn't need 50% to do a lot of damage to you. However, from midscreen and lower to the ground, he has to RC Edguy to follow up properly.

[WUT]

6P, 6P, 6P.

This move is surprisingly good for this fight. It stuffs most of the sword attacks and nulls ghosts (including P ghost if timed properly). It also screws with Raoh's non-low pokes. Don't overuse it, as the slow startup can get you punished. Just know that you have an answer to plenty of situations from that pseudo-mid range you'll get caught in while fighting Zappa.

No Summon: Mostly 2S and Fafnir bait. 5K is his best poke against you (feet/low invincibility throughout the move). Zappa's frame traps into centipedes (summon) are tricksy, so poking isn't recommended. Successfully blocking summon is a free Fafnir for you. Without a summon, Zappa can honestly mix-up running throw (free summon, possibly with orbs if he throws into a corner) or centipedes. It's simple, yet effective.

Dog: As was stated before: hit Zappa. If you're poking, keep it to quick recovering/jcable normals (5/2P, 5K, 5S[c]), as you may need to block if Zappa tries to interrupt your pressure strings. Dog catching you in recovery/startup of your move = you just lost momentum. Zappa can also trade the dog with your pokes and get a resummon for more orbs. Just not nice feelings.

Ghosts: They can zone you. You have to be patient. FD braking, empty jumps, jumping FD (ghost normals have deceptive range and still require you to FD in the air). Make him use up his ghosts and move in. 2D can get you under most of his pokes except for 2S and K ghost throw. 6P from the right range (within Ghost's 5S[f]/5HS range) is also a decent option.

Sword: 2S > you. Only Fafnir can effectively deal with it on the ground. If you do try and jump in (not really recommended against Zappa unless you know he's going to do a laggy move), know that his 2HS and his DP can stuff your attacks before you can even get close. I tend to pause slightly when I jump in and FD if I see Zappa twitch. Again, 6P can beat a surprising amount of Sword's ground pokes.

Raoh: That DP is ~100 damage if you eat it. So don't. Jumping FD nets you a free punish if you tries to anti-air with it and you guard it. If he RCs it to be safe, big deal. He just blew 50% to do so. 5D/5HS oki is kinda' tricky, but once you learn it he's not that threatening. Just watch for the throw, and if you plan on jumping to escape, please FD jump the entire way. That DP is massive.

That's about all the input I have. GB is useful in certain situations (particularly against Raoh and Sword), but I'm honestly not comfortable enough with it to advocate using it against any one particular move/setup right now. Like everyone else, I need more Zappa experience .

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Ryan-Bill: thing to remember is that Centipedes are only invincible to strikes, you can throw him out of it. Bait, bait, bait until you get point-blank and then throw the shit out of him. This also works against the mixup you mentioned, just throw to stop both of those options (you'll break/throw him first if he tries to throw you, throw him out of centipedes if he tries that).

[WUT]

Oho, very valid point. I've just gotten so used to poking out of throw attempts that strike invincibility rocks me. I'm spoiled by 3F 5K. Thanks for that. Edit: Old news, but 6P nulls Raoh's projectile. A vid in the OS Media Thread showcases one of the most manly 6Ps I've ever seen.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Haha, yeah, sometimes we forget. But generally it's good not to attempt throws too often since getting baited = horrible death. 1F jump -> FD is always the safest way to go. I still need to figure out how to deal with corner rape from the dog. Right now my general strategy against that is to not get cornered when the dog is out. =(

[Phrekwenci]

Just as a note, Raoh's main combo is now the 6HS, 236S,K loop (big forward punch into low fireball that'll lift off the ground). The spacing is sort of strict but it's real easy to set up after the uppercut RC. So again, don't get hit by the uppercut. However, he can start the same loop by using the fireball as a mix-up (doing a 236S,S instead) with a similar result, possibly without the RC.