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Shinjin

[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

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I think that YRC is a very cool feature and I think it can easily coexist with FRC.

At I first this is what I thought :

Using the Yellow and Purple for the new RCs and not using the blue color is like a sign that they are planning to bring back the FRC at sometime in the future.

But adding FRC to Xrd will have a good and bad effect that's why they didn't add it to Sign.

Good :

*Ky being able to cancel his stund edge, throw and slide for 25% for decent combos and mix ups.

*Chipp used to be able FRC his dp but now you can't RC reversals on whiff at all.

*many Characters that wasn't added to Xrd yet needs FRC like Robo-Ky I can't imagine him not being able to FRC his HS.

Bad:

*They want to attract new comers so it's not a good thing to initially put FRCs in the game.

*Zato doing HS drill FRC into ID j.K combined with the time slow mechanic will cause a very easy and stupid unblockable.

After hearing Pachi's answer I realized that I was just overthinking and their reason is just stupid.

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And not necessarily a bad thing.

@elven: yeah, I don't mind the bullet time or anything, they said that it broke up the flow so they slowed the games pace down to match. Why not just change the duration of the slow instead to keep the pacing. That's all.

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After hearing Pachi's answer I realized that I was just overthinking and their reason is just stupid.

I don't think him being a Faust player is why FRC was taken out (Ishiwatari himself says he decided against including it for being too difficult), it just solidified his agreement with its removal. At least, that's the impression I got, especially with how his and Ishiwatari's discussion of modern gamers went.

 

@elven: yeah, I don't mind the bullet time or anything, they said that it broke up the flow so they slowed the games pace down to match. Why not just change the duration of the slow instead to keep the pacing. That's all.

It wasn't the duration, it was the bullet time itself. A sudden change in speed of that caliber was determined to be too jarring, I guess.

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People would do well to remember that the vast majority of folks who play video games see them as a means of casual entertainment and don't necessarily enjoy features that require extremely precise inputs and extensive homework to even learn how to utilize them properly.  You can think developers have their heads up their asses for trying to make minor alterations to their game to make it more accessible to 90% of the people who pay money to play them, but out there in the real world — that world outside of memorizing frame data and equations for calculating hitstun decay and five-page-long debates on match-up ratios and terabytes of downloaded stream footage and Saturday nights spent in training mode practicing corner mixups — people call that an intelligent business decision.

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How is that a bad thing? :(

I am not sure if it's bad thing or a good thing.

It's just like Redsilversnake said

 

 (Ishiwatari himself says he decided against including it for being too difficult)

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I don't think him being a Faust player is why FRC was taken out (Ishiwatari himself says he decided against including it for being too difficult), it just solidified his agreement with its removal. At least, that's the impression I got, especially with how his and Ishiwatari's discussion of modern gamers went.

 

It wasn't the duration, it was the bullet time itself. A sudden change in speed of that caliber was determined to be too jarring, I guess.

 

 

So they did what exactly to decrease the pacing of the game to level out with it? Move speed? Increase the hitstop? The "bullet time" doubles the frames of the opponents actions right? That should be linear, the jarring effect should be equivalent regardless of the "pace" of the game. 

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They overrated the frc difficulty imo, 3 or 4f accuracy isn't that hard to pull, especially if u play a bit competitive.

But most people don't play competitively. And it takes quite a bit of dedication to play GG adequately.

 

Heck, I'm not even that consistent with FRC's but Ky isn't very reliant on them, luckily for me.

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Sigh.

What I'm saying is that the FRC system was incredible and was a substantial part of what made the XX series so good. Why take that away? YRC is a poor replacement. FRC's are too good for how much they cost? Buff the other tension options to make them on par.

Keep in mind, this is just an opinion.

understand what your saying. Same time you gotta understand people didn't play bc they felt learning frc's was too much work and difficult (which makes no sense when u have ppl learning 1fr links and memorizing frame data lol). Would I like to see frc's in the game hell yea...put some slow motion effect in it would look super cool lol. But same extent bc of the "difficulty" of performing frc's they took it out to help upstarts get into the game also to attract more people to play. But i def get what you are trying to say

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My main issue with removing FRCs because of difficulty to the average person is that the average person probably isn't gonna try to do FRCs in the first place.

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Yes but we want an easier bridge for them between what we are doing, and what they are doing.  If novice people are able to experience more of the mindgames and fun we have, then they will likely stay around longer to hit higher level.  Hate it or hate it, but SF4 did a great job of making a game that pulled new people in and kept them there towards the competetive level.

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Yes but we want an easier bridge for them between what we are doing, and what they are doing.  If novice people are able to experience more of the mindgames and fun we have, then they will likely stay around longer to hit higher level.  Hate it or hate it, but SF4 did a great job of making a game that pulled new people in and kept them there towards the competetive level.

 

And yet SF4 still has 1f links... I tend to think their methods for pulling in new players goes beyond simplification of execution requirements...

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i guess being exhaustive doesn't hurt

 

you can't safely meaty characters with fast (<5f) DPs like you could with FRCs because YRCs have startup now. mixups where you FRC something before it goes active are either gone (testament 5D, stroke the tree) or different (whiff FRC throw) because of time stop. combine the two and millia doesn't have guaranteed haircar 50/50 anymore.

 

DP FRCs (beta blade) are definitely out. it can also be argued that the loss of certain FRCs which are more useful for frame advantage than combo extension (rensen, hammerfall) affects those characters in a way that is hard to compensate. and then there's shit like tk restive rolling and +R slidehead.

 

all other uses of FRC i can think of are covered by YRC. or you get an even better combo for half the cost but that's gone. oh well

 

doesn't seem like much freedom lost compared to what YRC allows?

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What really puts off newer players is when basic concepts are hard. Not nuanced situations that require tight timing.

 

For example: "This game's basic mechanics tell e I can do x, but it's extremely difficult to do x without practice. That's stupid."

 

They're not going to go: "well, I can IB, reversal backdash YRC out of this situation real quick, but that's difficult to do without practice. That's stupid."

 

The difference is one is a basic mechanic, while the other is a complex situation where you use multiple basic mechanics in a different way.

 

Most game copanies strive for the latter kind of complexity making the game hard. That way, when you see something on the screen, that way when a player sees something really nuanced and complex, it creates the illusion they can do it. Think of the barrier like if you made it so playing keyboard required the equivilent of some basic notes requiring a complex input. There's dexterity already inolved, why the hell should learning twinkle twinkle little star poorly require you to input the equivilent of the part of a dragonforce song for a single note? a new player will give up before even playing twinkle twinkle little star in that case.

 

Low barriers of complexity for entry level play is the hook. Once a player enjoys pressing buttons and doing basic things without much strategy, then they'll play until the first critical frustration roadblock arsies, or they get bored. The trick is the game can have frustration roadblocks the deeper into the game a person is, because they're more invested, and less likely to give up. So when you get to the situation above where I mentioned IB backdash YRC, yeah, it might be hard to do for them, but they already like the game, so they're way more likely to learn how to do it.

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Ishiwatari stated he wanted to focus more in the plot of GG, something which he though it will be much easier to do in a HaS game than a fighting game, that's why.

 

About Potemkin, he also mentioned back then his excitement of doing a "Robo-Pot" soon or later, so the new Pot introduced in Xrd was something he had in mind for a long time.

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i guess being exhaustive doesn't hurt

 

you can't safely meaty characters with fast (<5f) DPs like you could with FRCs because YRCs have startup now. mixups where you FRC something before it goes active are either gone (testament 5D, stroke the tree) or different (whiff FRC throw) because of time stop. combine the two and millia doesn't have guaranteed haircar 50/50 anymore.

 

DP FRCs (beta blade) are definitely out. it can also be argued that the loss of certain FRCs which are more useful for frame advantage than combo extension (rensen, hammerfall) affects those characters in a way that is hard to compensate. and then there's shit like tk restive rolling and +R slidehead.

 

all other uses of FRC i can think of are covered by YRC. or you get an even better combo for half the cost but that's gone. oh well

 

doesn't seem like much freedom lost compared to what YRC allows?

How does the YRC freeze work, is your character actually hittable?  How would millia's have changed that much, can't you just yrc a bit earlier and still have it hit on the same frame?

 

I generally dislike dp's having a 25% meter way to make them safe, I like it even less on whiff.  I'm glad it's out, but I could see why some people who dp too much are satly.  Frame advantage frc's are in there, at the cost of 50% meter.  I can hammerfall RC and get likely an even bigger combo, probably 6H super or some sillly shit.  Remember you can YRC most moves before they are active.  FRC's were too good for the meter (often, not always).  So now they basically cost more meter (unless its projectile YRC's which are even better for the most part).

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I like the yrc system...just will .it's the frc's lol...but they do work differently...u can't yrc in hit stun...but that's made up for bc the way the meters seem to build up. Overall I'm not complaining at all...yrc is bringing potential to the game w different options of mix ups and ways to slow down people's momentum. I'm pumped to mess around w it

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What really puts off newer players is when basic concepts are hard. Not nuanced situations that require tight timing.

 

For example: "This game's basic mechanics tell e I can do x, but it's extremely difficult to do x without practice. That's stupid."

 

They're not going to go: "well, I can IB, reversal backdash YRC out of this situation real quick, but that's difficult to do without practice. That's stupid."

 

The difference is one is a basic mechanic, while the other is a complex situation where you use multiple basic mechanics in a different way.

 

Most game copanies strive for the latter kind of complexity making the game hard. That way, when you see something on the screen, that way when a player sees something really nuanced and complex, it creates the illusion they can do it. Think of the barrier like if you made it so playing keyboard required the equivilent of some basic notes requiring a complex input. There's dexterity already inolved, why the hell should learning twinkle twinkle little star poorly require you to input the equivilent of the part of a dragonforce song for a single note? a new player will give up before even playing twinkle twinkle little star in that case.

 

Low barriers of complexity for entry level play is the hook. Once a player enjoys pressing buttons and doing basic things without much strategy, then they'll play until the first critical frustration roadblock arsies, or they get bored. The trick is the game can have frustration roadblocks the deeper into the game a person is, because they're more invested, and less likely to give up. So when you get to the situation above where I mentioned IB backdash YRC, yeah, it might be hard to do for them, but they already like the game, so they're way more likely to learn how to do it.

 

I'do agree with this post and BladeOfJustice7 post that say most people don't play competitively ... But those casual player wouldn't ever care or maybe doesn't even know if FRC exist in the 1st place, at least that what happen to me more than 10 years ago when i just randomly playing XX since it have the best graphic for fighting game at that time imo... till some good friend of mine steam roll my ass with Anji and throw me a lot of Daigo video when he play Sol.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_zo0dvfzY ... Those blue cancel looks fun, so i ask that guy who hand me my ass, what's that... after got some explanantion about frc... the 1st thing that crossed in my mind is ... "No fucking way i'll ever manage to pull this stuff" ... and about a week later... i started to do GF(frc)>BB loop in real match ... but that's just 1 random casual player, so it can't justify the whole community of casual player right? ... not too long after that i feel bored to always fighting the same guy for hours, so i'm thinking to building up community with the same interest in my area ... got few of them, and they totally a casual player, so me and my fighting partner got their ass handed over to them (still a kid back then my arrogance is way too much, ussualy this isn't a good way to attract new player on my experience) ... glad they didn't back off and show interest how can i do that ... a week later, i got Baiken & Slayer that do Stupid damage + 1 Eddie that keep your ass on ground.

 

From this experience i believe casual community isn't that stupid... but constant intimidation that say FRC is for the elites only keep them shy away from this title... Not Going to argue why they didn't include FRC in Xrd, since it's already pointless by now, Just want To say they reason for not Including FRC in this game is BS ... Still feel like to punching Ishiwatari face for saying FRC is too hard for new comer =_=

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Not taking a side BUT

It's not about whether it's too hard for a new comer or not, but what the new comer perceives the difficulty to be. GG has a REPUTATION of difficulty associated with FRCs.

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