Order-Sol vs. Faust

[WUT]

I'm having some writer's block at the moment. I've been meaning to do a vs. Faust match-up thread for awhile, but I just can't decide what needs to be covered. I'm assuming most people don't have much experience fighting Faust. With that being said, what are your main concerns when going against Faust? Is it just dealing with zoning? His mix-up? I'd like to narrow it down, as my current plan of approach is waaaay too much to read.

I'll probably edit this post once I get a clear idea of where to go with this one.

Thanks guys.

Let's get it started and branch out from here:

Getting Zoned

Faust has a relatively easy time keeping HOS out once he's pushed you back/escaped. 5S(f), 2HS, and 2D are all solid mid/long-range pokes that both annoy you and potentially start his offense (cancelling into item throw or scalpel pull). Along with his superb ground-to-airs, j.HS has absurd range, restricting your movement should you try to jump over his ground pokes from further out. Some things to keep in mind:

1: Faust is always at frame disadvantage when special cancelling into item throw (5S[f] and 2D leave him at -10, 2HS leaves him at -5).

2: Faust cancelling 2HS into 5P whiff leaves him with frame advantage (+2).

3: Scalpel Pull must be FD'd in the air, and you can't backdash it (kinda' obvious, but should still be mentioned).

Getting in requires a little conditioning and finesse. Faust has huge recovery time on his zoning normals, so whiffing any of them means you're in. FD brake is a godsend. Same with delayed double jumping, straight up IAD'ing, or jumping FD. Any time you're forced to guard his zoning shenanigans means he potentially gets a chance to start his mix-up. Faust should rely on 2HS and 2D more than 5S(f) when it comes to poking, as it is beat by 2D and GB. 2HS and 2D both lose to jumping, however, which 5S(f) covers (to an extent). As such, you can condition him to throwing one or the other and acting accordingly to counter it.

Against Anti-Airs

Jumping eliminates Faust's overwhelming ground game, but poses its own set of risks. Faust's anti-airs are amazing. 5K, 6P, 2K (lol) and 2S can all ruin your day. There is a secret, however. Aside from 2S, Faust must commit to his anti-airs and throw them early, or they trade/lose to j.P whiff falling j.HS. Once you make him pre-emptively throw out his anti-airs, you can proceed to come in via 2S/2D.

Pogo/ForceBreaks

I treat Pogo Stance, its FB counterpart, and FB hand slap in the same manner; Greed Sever-esque moves. Bait them, and punish. Faust has frame advantage if you guard the hand slap; both the pogos allow him to be punished should you block them. GB is a good option against both the FB attacks; you'll whiff them and score a CH. HOS also has an amusing way of dealing with Pogo Stance. 5K, 5S©, and 5HS all hit him out of it once the attack has finished. A dashing j.P also does the job nicely. If you're forced to guard pogo stance, remember that P (Faust headbutt) is an overhead that leaves him with frame advantage, and S (ground flower) is a low with frame advantage. He doesn't get anything but a guard break from the headbutt, but he gets combo + knockdown if the flower hits. Yes, it's stupid.

Against Items

This will mostly be tailored to your plan of attack/escape once the item has been thrown.

Food Leave it alone. You effectively halt item throw for the duration the candy is out.

Chibis If it's Faust or Robo-Ky, you can either approach on the ground, or wait until they land and try to SJ over. If it's Potemkin, try to get on the other side as soon as you can (but be smart about it, don't eat 50 damage from j.HS while trying to AD past it).

Hammer/Pan Whatever you do, don't get hit by them. That Dizzy Mod is absurd. 2 CH Hammers/Pans = pretty much a free Dizzy. Not nice.

Bomb If you're forced to guard it, FD (it has chip damage x2). SJing right before it explodes is optimal, but if Faust is waiting on it he can air throw you into the bomb and combo off the resulting explosion (very manly). Faust will hesistate on poking you, as he can extend his hitbox into the bomb and end up being hit (stupid). Visually, the bomb pulsates 3 times before exploding, just to help with your SJ timing (or SV timing, if you're REALLY manly).

Meteors I hate these things. Once Faust gets meteors, it's RTSD time for him. Thankfully, Faust's rushdown is really tame. SJing and guarding is your safest bet, otherwise you can try to GB if he approaches by air (Lvl2 escapes meteors rather nicely), or follow the earlier advice if he tries to approach with his longer ranged pokes.

Poison Be extra cautious and try not to get hit by this. I tend to dashing FD brake into it just to get rid of it, because poison just isn't nice. If he manages to get Poison during Oki (aka his Faultless Defense Cancel j.D cross-up/fake mix-up), don't reversal unless it's TR (lol). It's free poison + combo for him if you do.

Mix-up

Faust has quite a few options. Most of his overheads you can reaction guard (5D, 6HS, FB hand slap), meaning you can guard low most of the time. However, when Faust starts jc'ing and then doing FDC j.K to mix-up, you're in for a problem. What's nice is that the timing to do FDC j.K mix-up is pretty tight. If he does it too early he won't be able to combo after (FDC'ing adds recovery frames if done too soon), and if he does it too late you can either guard it, or he still can't combo after (from being too high up). Faust also has a command throw...well, not really a command throw, but more of an unblockable. I say that because you actually have a 4F window to interrupt it (after frame 1 he'll perform the throw as long as you're not throw invincible, and it activates in 5 frames). Faust's tick throw setups are pretty easy to see, as most of his faster pokes leave him with frame advantage (5P, 2P, 2K). Also, don't ever get hit by his teleporting door crap. Just jump and FD to guard all 3 options, then punish him for being stupid.

During Wake-Up

If the Faust you're playing has any experience against DP chars, he should know this one. Meaty 2K cannot be reversal SV'd; you will whiff and he will punish. Thankfully it's telegraphed, so you can just guard low and wait to escape. As mentioned earlier, he may try for FDC j.D cross-up/fake mix-up during Oki. Personally I find it hard to guard, so I recommend exposure and just learning when it will or won't cross-up. Experience.

Your Offense

The fun part. Thankfully, Faust's ability to get out of pressure is weak. Aside from his FB hand slap and Pogo acting as Greed Severs, he pretty much has to sit there and guard or try to 1F jump out. This means that your CC pressure works nicely. Tick throws also work wonders, provided you punish his Greed Severs enough to make him think twice about throwing them out to counter your assault. Once you pin him down your main focus should be on keeping him there, which shouldn't be too hard given Faust's limited options. Have a blast.

[GreasyGyro718]

it'd be nice to know how we can approach faust depending on the item thrown. for example, poison is out, how do we get to him from there? all that kinda stuff is good to start with.

[LM_Akira]

One of our local players uses Faust as a backup but he'll only use him once in a blue moon so I'll rarely get to play vs Faust. The times I do play him, the things that concern me the most are item spam, remembering to watch out for meteors, dealing with the outrageous range he has on certain moves, what to do when he's on the pogo and generally just approaching him. I play vs Testy and Venom quite often so I have a game plan for those matchups but trying to approach Faust I don't really know what to do. Go in from the air or stay on the ground and bait?

[Hatred Edge]

I'm concerned about getting in on Faust. That, and I don't know crap about his normals. His AA's, pokes, mixups etc. I know Faust zones HOS but outside of that I got nothing besides the standard AA's. My concerns are: -What not to poke with -What beats what -His pressure(besides block string > item toss -His mixups -Getting in -What specials not to use

[GreasyGyro718]

well I know one thing from playing faust I think twice. rockit isn't useful. he can just walk under it. never start the round with anything besides backdash or some other movement. any poke you do is gonna get stuff'd and CH'd by his 5k. his pressure and mixup is all about his iad FD j.d or iad FD land whatever. that's basically all I got outa playing faust for the very few times playing him.

[Tsak]

some pressure can be from his j.2k into GMW and since he does it low most of the time (well should be atleast) GMW will touch the ground before it comes back up so he will land with less recovery his okizeme usually comes from Meaty 2K into many different options which basically set you up thinking to block but he can throw in a command grab if you are prone to blocking against it also FDC j.k to fake you out with the instant overhead for pokes that stop you from getting in 2H->2P?(think) rinse repeat since it links into itself pretty well also 5S(f) -> 2K that loops as well he can go into item from like all of these as well also watch out with using 2D his FB handslap can be used on reaction to stuff it for pressuring him well its kinda hard your jump options usually get stuffed by his AA since you have to time it differently because he can just low profile your air attacks to make em whiff fuzzy guard on faust is extremely hard and since his ground pokes rape yours this makes it hard to get in on him bandit revolver is helpful at times cover it with FRC as much as possible though never use Rock it lv 1 since he just ducks under it you may find yourself using BHB and SV in this matchup alot more

[Hintalove]

one thing to know is that 6k wont hit faust if hes walking forward. Really wierd, but if you get predictable and the faust knows that it's free money for him.

[WUT]

I dislike trying to throw bait Faust as it is; his 5HS is a great "option select" should you be slow on your bait as it comes out in 9F. Some other notes: - If you guard a 5P, 2P, or 2K, you have a 4F+ window to backdash/escape, as his fastest normal is 5P (6F) and it leaves him at +2. In particular, this applies to 2K -> pseudo-link 2P, or 2P wait 2P pressure. - Scalpel Pull (full-screen command throw) can be 2D'd under, as well as GB'd. The further away the easier it is. - If Faust likes to start the match with 5K, use 6P. Faust's 2P and 2D both beat it, but both of those options lose to 2S, which, amusingly enough, loses to Faust 5K. Funny little rock/paper/scissors moment, but establishing momentum is important in this match. - Charge Burst is actually an option, as it stuffs 5S(f) and scalpel pull if you're being zoned. I tend to Manual Charge in short spurts, electing to Charge Burst on occasion to get a KD and momentum. Risky, but the option is nice.

[reaVer]

I haven't had a Faust that really tried to get momentum on me, but the trick pretty much is to beat his zoning. He can't really zone ground and air at the same time, so you should use that knowledge to base your offense on. If you get close to Faust, he pretty much dies because you out prioritize everything he has. Whether you do this with level or without level is up to you, just be sure to avoid his scalpel. If you see Faust go under his blanket, use Ri, it will avoid his attack completely or even punish it. In some cases you get a GB that hits. I wouldn't really bother poking him as he has plenty of ways to beat OS's ranged attacks. Just get close, do your damage and finish him off.

[WUT]

Item + FDC j.HS/any of his anti-airs do a great job at preventing both aerial and ground progress at the same time. If this wasn't the case then closing the gap on Faust would be as easy as "Oh I jumped Scalpel/5S(f)/2HS/2D and now I can j.HS and win". And it's just not that simple.

[reaVer]

Duh. I didn't say it was simple, its still a 2 way game. And with item out you simply have to wait till that item is gone, eventually the completely useless crap comes out and he has to zone by himself.

[Tsak]

..... man you have never really played against a good faust have you?

[WUT]

Faust doesn't just zone you. He can start taking the fight closer to you while keeping the threat of his pokes and items viable, which lets his pressure (albeit mediocre) come into play. He can gain momentum or footing from any item that isn't coin, doughnut and candy. If he gets bomb, mini-pot, or meteors you're in for some aggression, which can be difficult to navigate as you're concerned by both the item's impact and Faust's own pokes. Any of his other items control space, making "beating his zoning" difficult. While you have things you can do at long range (mainly Manual Charge), and "simply waiting" is an option, it doesn't do much for you as far as winning the match goes to sit there and let Faust zone freely until he gets unlucky and gets a crappy item. You still need to have an impact and make him feel threatened by trying to get inside.

[Senkei]

Duh. I didn't say it was simple, its still a 2 way game. And with item out you simply have to wait till that item is gone, eventually the completely useless crap comes out and he has to zone by himself.

Yeah please don't act like I'm just gonna let you come the fuck in on me. And waiting till the item is gone?

I don't mean to kinda rain on your parade but the only items that really halt Faust's zoning is candy and doughnut(both can be taken). All others(if you didn't know) help one way or the other in contributing to his zoning.

The trick against Faust is using HOS's speed and priority, mixed with a little bit of crazy. HOS isn't really too hard to zone because of a lack of projectile, but the speed and the range of J.HS is very nice for incoming from the air and his 2S and 2D are great for the ground progression.

What Ryan-bill has stated when it comes to momentum at the forefront of the match is very important. I try to always gain the upper-hand against HOS as soon as "Let's Rock" is announced. This allows me to better control my spacing and my zoning will be on my terms not his. That's momentum in a zoner's game.