[P4AU] Elizabeth Loketest Discussion

[Elochai]

-Bufudyne Non-awakening A version: Now only one hit. Opponent simply falls after first hit.

-can't combo after Garudyne and slower startup and recovery.

How Elizabeth is getting better ..unless im missing some huge thing or is Eli is getting worse..

Can't combo after Bufu nor Garu.. Good luck Eli

Honestly, the A.bufu change isn't as bad as you think. We only ever used A.bufu as a combo ender, or on crouching in the xx > 5C > 214A route. You're not losing much honestly. The Garudyne change, however, I would agree is a bit of a nerf.

You can't just look at two things and assess whether or not the character is for better or worse though. We have things like hop cancel normals (which in theory gives us the ability to do a 50/50), so it's not like Liz is at a total loss. Additionally, compare Elizabeth's changes to that of the entire cast. A lot of characters (seem to) have lost their damage output. It's not just her.

[TD]

We don't have the game yet. I am positively sure Liz will gain a new bnb that will do decent to above average damage, and anyway it's still a loctest so things are bound to change. Maybe she won't be dishing out 70+% on a consistent basis anymore but she can still hit people.

Also, bufu a wasn't particularly important outside of being that combo route you hate to use. Not only that but just because it doesn't freeze doesn't make it useless. It could still have a lot of untechable time.

Garu might be a worse nerf, however it still isnt anything to be upset about as I'm more than sure Liz will be alright without doing 6k+

Liz is moving from making that one or two hits count to an actual character. She's got a buffed neutral, a lot more toys in awakening, A vital increase In her health, possibly improved defense and a counter that could lead into massive damage. She looks good. Also considering the universal damage nerf and some of the top tiers losing some of their bull.

[m-vegeta]

After reading your comment's guys maybe i exaggerated a little bit.. But don't blame me when you look at her position in the tier list i did not think it needed those nerfs..

Another thing i wanna say .. Is why most of the time the characters that are loved by the community are the weak chars.. BB tsubaki .. GG johnny .. P4 Elizabeth .. Even capcom rose in SF4 lol

[DudeUnderscore]

After reading your comment's guys maybe i exaggerated a little bit.. But don't blame me when you look at her position in the tier list i did not think it needed those nerfs..

Another thing i wanna say .. Is why most of the time the characters that are loved by the community are the weak chars.. BB tsubaki .. GG johnny .. P4 Elizabeth .. Even capcom rose in SF4 lol

I heard a tsubaki won SBO though

[Luminos564]

I'm kinda hoping Randomizer helps her defense when she inevitably loses Thanny during Persona Break. Her major downfall was that she need him for, effectively, everything sans her Furious Action. Randomizer, since it lasts so long, could potentially serve as both a defensive maneuver and a means to give Thanny enough time to recover. Granted, she has 6 Persona Cards in comparison to everyone else's average of 3 and 4 (except Shadow Labrys) so she'll get more mileage out of him, but as others pointed out, it takes a lot of time to recover 6 cards as well. Certainly beats using Mind Charge for it at least.

[m-vegeta]

I'm kinda hoping Randomizer helps her defense when she inevitably loses Thanny during Persona Break. Her major downfall was that she need him for, effectively, everything sans her Furious Action. Randomizer, since it lasts so long, could potentially serve as both a defensive maneuver and a means to give Thanny enough time to recover. Granted, she has 6 Persona Cards in comparison to everyone else's average of 3 and 4 (except Shadow Labrys) so she'll get more mileage out of him, but as others pointed out, it takes a lot of time to recover 6 cards as well. Certainly beast using Mind Charge for it at least.

She needed some defensive buffs so i agree with you.. It's reall hard to defend when playing Elizabeth

I heard a tsubaki won SBO though

Right.. But that was mostly because of the player(Konan) not the character.

I could be wrong too.

[Luminos564]

She needed some defensive buffs so i agree with you.. It's reall hard to defend when playing Elizabeth

That and please do something to make Mamudoon have a use. I know that the move is an instant kill but when has there ever been a point to use Mamudoon? The charge time is horrible and is gone the moment Lizzie takes a hit/blocks. At least Mahamaon has utility in some, albeit situational, combos. Mamudoon, not so much. It really sucks when your character cannot really make use of any one move. Makes that character feel real weak.

[Effenhoog]

I'm just wondering if they are improving her mixup game at all. That really felt like the biggest deciding factor on high and low tier placement in P4A, other than Kanji

[Diveman]

I'm just wondering if they are improving her mixup game at all. That really felt like the biggest deciding factor on high and low tier placement in P4A, other than Kanji

Not really, it was more like her lack of a good neutral game and overall gimmicky style. And for the record, Goro destroyed everyone with Makoto in BBEXT one time.

[Elochai]

I think that gimmicks and lack of mix-up are sorta related to one another. Without the mix-up, the only way to open people up was to run gimmicks or condition people to get hit by silly stuff (which I guess you might call gimmicky too). In vanilla, we had a mix-up game, albeit a weak one; using 214D (or 214C in the corner) somewhat forced the opponent to guess between j.A/2A. Similarly, 2B & 236D 50/50 existed, too. I think Elizabeth's mix-up game is more "normalized" in P4C, or at least it seems that way. I don't know if hop is faster now, but having hop cancelable normals makes me believe that a neutral mix-up game is present. I dunno though.

[TD]

Iirc no hop cancellable normals are overheads in p4c (don't quote me, I don't have a reliable source). She has good pressure though, IMO, in her 5a and 5aa strings which lead into so much - maybe not as easy to land as other characters but the options are there if you like attempting hard reads. It also resets into itself (5aa) multiple times and is safe for the most part.

I think not having dead end moves is an absolute boon, as in, pressure doesn't end after x move if you don't have heat. Her pressure being safer is really going to show. I love her changes. Not sure about randomized yet though bit far negative penalty sounds broken lol.

And tsubaki, when she won sbo, was mid tier.

[Elochai]

Sorry, I realize now that I might have been a little nebulous in my reference to hop cancelling. The HCable normal itself isn't an overhead, but the following normal would be. Similarly to how you can hop > j.A in vanilla, in theory, you should be able to do 5A > HC > j.A or 5A > HC > 2A. It's not quite a solid mix-up, but I suppose it's good for catching people sleeping or something.

[DudeUnderscore]

my only complaint with Randomizer/Debilitate is the command is [6]4....which means you have to hold forward then backwards.

So I see that more as an offensive tool for baiting after a blockstring.

[TheArm05]

I think not having dead end moves is an absolute boon, as in, pressure doesn't end after x move if you don't have heat. Her pressure being safer is really going to show. I love her changes. Not sure about randomized yet though bit far negative penalty sounds broken lol.

This is why these changes are a MASSIVE buff. My(everyones?) biggest problem with Liz was the lack of options I had against actually good players who don't fall for dumb shit. We have much more counterplay to characters mashing/airdashing out of our pressure now.

Liz games are going to be her going for one hit and comboing into awakening + diarahan. Then doing extended combos with the upgraded specials. The new Awakening Garudyne looks so simple to combo in/out of. I am curious to know if 2B > jC > C/DGaru > 2A works in awakening now.

Randomizer sounds like garbage to me and I am skeptical about the uses of the R-Action feint but everything is just speculation at this point.

[susano]

This is why these changes are a MASSIVE buff. My(everyones?) biggest problem with Liz was the lack of options I had against actually good players who don't fall for dumb shit. We have much more counterplay to characters mashing/airdashing out of our pressure now.

Liz games are going to be her going for one hit and comboing into awakening + diarahan. Then doing extended combos with the upgraded specials. The new Awakening Garudyne looks so simple to combo in/out of. I am curious to know if 2B > jC > C/DGaru > 2A works in awakening now.

Randomizer sounds like garbage to me and I am skeptical about the uses of the R-Action feint but everything is just speculation at this point.

I agree. Good players didn't fall for grabs, setups or even Liz pressuring them. Especially a good Yu player...it was not fun at all.

[Luminos564]

Elizabeth

- SB dia has projectile invul. recovers so much life

Well can we say "hooray" for this? Granted, you likely won't ever need to throw out a naked SB Diarahan when you have not at least dealt with the opponent's movement in some way, but this will at least snuff out random Ziodyne (both Yu and Akihiko's) or Naoto's Pew Pew pistols and recover some much needed health post-awakening.

[Putin]

Considering Wail's damage nerf and 5D working on freeze, maybe B Bufu > Wail works now without the need for AOA > OMC?

It would make sense, I don't know if it would be a buff or a nerf though since using 100 meter on that is certainly worth it in the current version with its ability to completely skip the enemy's Awakening.

It should also not be affected by 2C buff anymore since Bufu supposedly eats it up, and I can't think of any other route leading into that other than the usual 2C > B Bufu.

[Eshi]

I wonder how strong EX Maragidyne > Mind Charge > SB Dia will be. With the huge buffs she receives in Awakening plus SB Dia recovering more health, she could be a powerhouse.

[Errol]

i read that SB Dia recovers quick enough to not be punished off sweep->SB Dia, IIRC.

[Luminos564]

i read that SB Dia recovers quick enough to not be punished off sweep->SB Dia, IIRC.

Giggity. That sounds like such massive troll potential. "Oh look, you got tripped. Here let me recover 40% of my awakened health while you fall flat on your face".

[TD]

In that case- very strong, probably even top class depending on if sb dia and regular one share the same recovery. At the very least its more practical.

[Eshi]

i read that SB Dia recovers quick enough to not be punished off sweep->SB Dia, IIRC.

wow. That is hilariously good. She needs it though, right?

[bace]

lol if it stays like that in the corner 2c sb dia is going to be great

[TheArm05]

Odd that they would buff diarahan so much. It just seems like it is promoting a relatively unfun mechanic to play against. I know it would be frustrating to get someone to <50% then they hit you with something random and now you have to deal with ~6000 awakening life AND they do more damage.

Whatever I will take any buffs they are going to give me. The projectile invuln on diarahan is amazing and a great change imo.

I haven't heard any changes to the poison status effect. If it still does the same damage poison combos might end up being the new staple high damage combos since Garu loops are gone.

[Diveman]

Odd that they would buff diarahan so much. It just seems like it is promoting a relatively unfun mechanic to play against. I know it would be frustrating to get someone to <50% then they hit you with something random and now you have to deal with ~6000 awakening life AND they do more damage.

.

can't be more frustrating than some white haired swordsman activating lv3 x-factor + devil trigger and wasting all your team in 5 seconds. :P