[P4AU] Elizabeth Loketest Discussion

[TheArm05]

can't be more frustrating than some white haired swordsman activating lv3 x-factor + devil trigger and wasting all your team in 5 seconds. :P

It is all about design vs execution in these two instances. XF3 was designed to stop the snowball effect that happened in mvc2 and was a decent concept that was horrendously executed. You can be sure Capcom didn't intend Vergil to be able to steamroll entire teams effortlessly.

New Liz seems to be designed around massive comebacks even more so than current Liz. Hugely buffed diarahan + powered specials + mind charge + lowered normal mode damage. To me this is promoting a style that I am sure will frustrate the shit out of my opponents.

I may be blowing this out of proportion though since we did receive quite a lot of buffs in general along with the damage nerfs. We will see with the next loketest.

[Eshi]

I hope the new Elizabeth is broken as shit. Revenge, bitches.

[Elochai]

All of you are missing how great Elizabeth mirror matches will be. Imagine ending a combo in 2C > 236236A > 2C > 236AB from fullscreen. Afterwards, you do SB Dia. What can your opponent do to stop you ?

[Dazardz]

I hope the new Elizabeth is broken as shit. Revenge, bitches.

Probably is, until your Persona breaks.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

With 6 cards, it's gonna hurt when the Persona is broken.... EXCEPT I'M NOT GOING TO BREAK IT.

[Eshi]

All of you are missing how great Elizabeth mirror matches will be. Imagine ending a combo in 2C > 236236A > 2C > 236AB from fullscreen. Afterwards, you do SB Dia. What can your opponent do to stop you ?

if the combo put them in awakening? do their own SB Dia. The best meta.

[susano]

I hope the new Elizabeth is broken as shit. Revenge, bitches.

This 100%.

[OmnixTSC]

I don't know...now that things have calmed down a bit after the loketests, I honestly don't know how I feel about Liz's changes. Sure, I like the fact that she's getting buffed. I, however, don't think I like the direction her play-style seems to be going in. She was an extremely high-risk character that lacked some things (like health). Now, she's a high risk character up until the point where you put her in awakening and she gets an SB Dia off. Seems like the goal would be to take her down without letting her hit awakening, but mind charge laughs in the face of such nonsense. With the way things are currently (though they're subject to change), your opponent is even more likely than before to be punished for taking the lead, as Liz is even more of a threat in awakening than she ever was in P4A.

[TD]

Sooo what's the problem with that?

[OmnixTSC]

Sooo what's the problem with that?

I just never agreed with the notion that you should be punished for outplaying your opponent, which is the problem with XF in UMvC3. It won't be nearly as ridiculous as it is in that game (as that game has other issues), but it's still kind of silly to me at least.

Sure, Liz lacks defensive options so most people would agree with this decision. Liz will also have to land a hit in most cases for SB Dia to be viable. But when she does land that hit, the match will seem heavily in her favor if she can play a good neutral game. Just has to watch out for Thanatos getting broken, and even if the opponent manages to force a Persona break, SB Dia gave her more than enough health in advance to weather the storm.

I'm definitely not saying that the player won't have to work hard even with SB Dia as an option. It's a given that they will still have to play on point against a good player. I just feel like this doesn't address the issues that people already have with Liz, and instead adds an issue for the player facing off against Liz to deal with.

[susano]

I just never agreed with the notion that you should be punished for outplaying your opponent, which is the problem with XF in UMvC3. It won't be nearly as ridiculous as it is in that game (as that game has other issues), but it's still kind of silly to me at least.

Sure, Liz lacks defensive options so most people would agree with this decision. Liz will also have to land a hit in most cases for SB Dia to be viable. But when she does land that hit, the match will seem heavily in her favor if she can play a good neutral game. Just has to watch out for Thanatos getting broken, and even if the opponent manages to force a Persona break, SB Dia gave her more than enough health in advance to weather the storm.

I'm definitely not saying that the player won't have to work hard even with SB Dia as an option. It's a given that they will still have to play on point against a good player. I just feel like this doesn't address the issues that people already have with Liz, and instead adds an issue for the player facing off against Liz to deal with.

Are you implying that they buffed her for the wrong reasons?

[OmnixTSC]

Are you implying that they buffed her for the wrong reasons?

Eh, I don't really know. She's subject to change anytime from here to the release of the game so...I'll really just wait before I say they buffed her for the wrong reasons.

I know WHY they're buffing her. I just don't feel that's the way they should do it, that's all. But like I said, I'll just sit back and wait for it. It's just the way I see her current state.

[susano]

Eh, I don't really no. She's subject to change anytime from here to the release of the game so...I'll really just wait before I say they buffed her for the wrong reasons.

I know WHY they're buffing her. I just don't feel that's the way they should do it, that's all. But like I said, I'll just sit back and wait for it. It's just the way I see her current state.

Yeah, I'd like to see how she pans out as well.

[Elochai]

I'm definitely not saying that the player won't have to work hard even with SB Dia as an option. It's a given that they will still have to play on point against a good player. I just feel like this doesn't address the issues that people already have with Liz, and instead adds an issue for the player facing off against Liz to deal with.

Pretty much this. If SB Dia is kept in the final version, I don't think that it'll be the large issue that it's being made out to be. After all, you need to be in awakening & take the offense + have 75 meter to even use it.

I disagree with the statement about "high risk until she gets an SB Dia" though. I mean, even if you heal yourself, you still have somewhat poor defense/offense. You're still going to have to hit the opponent in some way to win; the high risk/reward play-style is still there. If anything, Liz just goes from being "one chance" to quite literally "more than one chance".

I still wanna see how good Randomizer is though. It interests me the most out of any of these changes.

[Errol]

it's probably not worth thinking too much about it until maybe the final loktest.

in the last test before CP, tsubaki's D DD only used 1 bar. i wish that broken shit went live but it didn't.

[DudeUnderscore]

it's probably not worth thinking too much about it until maybe the final loktest.

in the last test before CP, tsubaki's D DD only used 1 bar. i wish that broken shit went live but it didn't.

yeah a lot of things are subject to change and that's what the loketests are for.

Im still curious what the final liz changes will look like

[Yannick]

What are Elizabeth's pre-Awakening combo routes looking to be now? Lots of old routes are now only valid or possible in Awakening, so I'm wondering if she will only have extra basic stuff until you mash Mind Charge.

[Eshi]

It seems like she depends a lot on SB tornado for pre-awakening hit confirms, although that's not much different from before. Remove C garu loops from your combos and that's basically P4C without awakening. It's hard to say much else since there are a lot of unknowns like her new autocombo.

[susano]

It seems like she depends a lot on SB tornado for pre-awakening hit confirms, although that's not much different from before. Remove C garu loops from your combos and that's basically P4C without awakening. It's hard to say much else since there are a lot of unknowns like her new autocombo.

I hope we get something soon.

I wonder if they'll be another loketest soon?

[Luminos564]

I hope the new Elizabeth is broken as shit. Revenge, bitches.

But Lizzie does not do revenge. All she does is learn even more effective ways of inflicting pain. And Fear. And Paralysis. And Freeze. And pretty much any status ailment under the SMT Rainbow barring Berserk since Lizzie should never make you angry XD.

[Elochai]

Not sure if there's overlap with old information, but here's what is currently on Omex's loketest #2 translation page:

New Content:

•Once Elizabeth is in awakening, all of her special moves ‘power up’ drastically, though in current loketest they’re more of a downgrade for some reason.

•There is now an icon on screen to denote when Liz has her damage boost from 2C ready

•B zio is now chargable, Liz can move while it charges up

•apparently has an autocombo with the b button now, goes into her Dial A route

•New move from old Loketest, Randomizer/Debilitate.

Goes into a counter state, then turns the enemy into a card before throwing them away, inflicting Negative Penalty on them afterwards.

Randomizer now knocks back fullscreen (compared to last loketest), A Zio OMC Followup is possible

Randomizer negative penalty lasts for ~40 count

Randomizer can’t take projectiles, but will take Persona attacks. Breaks the persona if far away, hits both persona/opponent if they are close.

Buffs:

•SB wail has a mechanic that lets you boost the damage by fiddling with the stick?

•Can hold the button during SB Diarahan to increase recovery

•Awakening A Zio is slim, SB Zio is identical to current SB zio, happens/hits twice (Elizabeth might be able to act during it?)

•A Concentrate does not leave blue health but has invuln from the first frame, B version is supposedly same as current, and SB version also leaves blue health, likely invuln and blue health.

•Can cancel into specials off of 5C (1) or (2)

•5C will now float on hit regardless of CH/ETC (maybe only on crouch?)

•Can now charge 2C. 2C will not have guard point for the duration, but will be able to combo into 5C/5D afterwards.

•Now able to combo into j.D/5D without spinstate.

•air D garu may have no landing recovery?

•D Garu’s recovery might now be +, a liz was able to D Garu on block -> 5A for a counterhit

•Mitsuru lost 6-70% of her HP to a 2C boosted, counterhit SB Wail

•Agi comes out faster now, much more useful for neutral game

Nerfs:

•Awakening Garu hits increased, followup not possible

•Awakening SB Zio is awful on block, Liz can easily be instant killed inbetween the two shots, and Thanatos is forced to stay on screen for ~3 seconds afterwards.

•Awakening D Garu’s startup is slower (Does not combo off of sweep)

•Awakening Zio A may now wallstick/bounce

•All 3 awakening Garus launch the opponent high up in the air, but allows them to tech before Liz can combo afterwards.

•B and SB Bufu both home in slightly on the opponent if they are close enough(?)

•B Bufu freeze time is much shorter, okizeme possible but VERY tight

•B Bufu > Wail does not work

•No supercancel on Agi

Combo info:

• 5AA > 5C route gone (5BB 5C route might be fine)

• 5AA can be jump canceled only on the very last hit

• 2C > B Bufu > SB Agidyne still works

• Randomizer > A Zio OMC > Dash 5B yellowbeats

• 5C now floats opponent, allowing for 2C > B Bufu meterless

• J.C CH still groundbounces, j.C CH 5B 5C 2C comboes

• 5BBB Autocombo is Liz’s p4A 5AA Autocombo, 5BBB D Garu still works

• After non awakening SB Zio in corner, 5C will not combo, 5B needed

[Dazardz]

Like everybody is saying, she is most likely incomplete. I like the addition of the opponent floating on hit of 5C.

Debilitate can be used while your being pressured, or is just like activating the super when you see the opponent coming towards you with an attack? I wonder.

She has a new B auto combo? As long as the starter is still the 5B we have now.

D Garu a + on block!? Insane.

Finally, why no Ghastly Wail combo? I liked the long freeze time on Bufu, it was the easiest way to combo and inflict poison at the same time. I hope there's a new route, that move deals a ton of damage.

Edit:

I watched some unlisted videos from the previous loketest and Elizabeth's 5C does not float the opponent on any hits. It pretty much only floats them on crouching. What I noticed:

Some unmentioned changes:

5C (2) does not float a standing opponent.

Maragidyne C, travelled across the screen much faster than how it is now.

Zio is super thin, but faster if you don't charge it by the looks of it.

[Elochai]

Even if it's only on crouching, I still think 5C floating is pretty damn good. We no longer have to settle with that silly 214A > IAD j.B combo route (I hated this one with a passion). This means that you get oki off of j.A meterless now (unless this was possible before and I'm a scrub). Pretty good!

In the same vein, I like j.C floorbouncing on CH. You can theoretically get fullscreen combos back into 214D (like fullscreen j.C CH > 5C > 2C > 214B > 214D). However, "agi comes out faster" might mean that we may not be able to get 214D after 214B now. I wonder if anyone tried it at the loketest.

Randomizer causing fullscreen knockback makes me sad though.

[Dazardz]

Randomizer causing fullscreen knockback makes me sad though.

Because then we have to get in on an annyoing character like Yukiko again?

I can't be sad with that move, we get to inflict a Negative Penalty freely, I don't think it wears off if they start playing rushdown like usual. If Liz doesn't get a damage nerf, and we can still do those easy 5k combos (Fatal Counter) and then we can also inflict negative penalty on the opoonent, I think it's alright.

[Elochai]

You know what, I think you're right. It's not all that bad. I think I just want really damaging combos for free off of negative penalty. But with that being said, I wonder if the prorate on this move would be really bad, kinda like shuffle time (since randomizer seems like shuffle time to me anyway).

Getting in may not be as much of a problem with faster agi though.

[Omex]

there's been a few things added to the doc that clearly demonstrates elizabeth has potential people didn't know about at the loketest that could lead to her being perfectly fine in the new loketest. sb garu canceling into sb zio when she had 2C boost for garu, etc.

also, seriously, you nerds need to figure out what we're going to do for notation for differentiating between awakened moves and normal moves for me. figure out something good immediately so I can post liz notes without confusion lol