Pocket Rumble - SNK Neo Geo Pocket Color Styled Fighter, now on Kickstarter

[the_d3v]

Here's an interesting new fighter on Kickstarter for anyone who enjoyed SNKs games on the old Neo Geo Pocket and Neo Geo Pocket Color.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cardboardrobotgames/pocket-rumble-a-new-fighting-game-for-pc-mac-and-l?ref=home_location

Aside from the retro-handheld artstyle, the team also wants to go for a game that focuses more on strategy and execution.

What's interesting is how meter seems to be very important (I'm getting a definite 3S vibe here) and how each character has different meter options. For example, one character has a standard "capcom style" meter, while another has one that builds through keeping your opponent in blockstun while yet another has one specifically for ArcSys style bursts.

The other interesting thing is that they've implemented an actual "frame data bar." In other words, there's an actual bar under the lifebar that shows the startup, active and recovery frames of a move as well as the blockstun and hitstun for the defending player.

Their Kickstarter goal is $16,000 with an additional $2000 giving us GGPO netcode as a stretch goal.

EDIT: Kick from Divekick is the final boss and his divekick is still a 1 hit KO.

[Kristoph]

game seems smart, they seem to be focused on the right things. i hope they figure out a way to get more publicity for this.

[SoWL]

Agreed, this one looks hella cool. Though it feels like something that belongs on a handheld console rather than on PC.

[Kristoph]

Kickstarter is off to kind of a slow start. Really hoping SRK front pages it sometime soon so things turn around!

It's notable that it's also on Steam Greenlight, so upvoting it there would be a good idea: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=167646774

[White Man]

Kickstarter is off to kind of a slow start. Really hoping SRK front pages it sometime soon so things turn around!

SRK mods are too busy linking videos that demonstrate how to pull off infinites in UMvC3. My math says a new ones of those hits YT every 18 seconds on average.

Regardless, I'm surprised the response to this has been so lethargic. These crowd funding campaigns usually see more activity closer to the deadline, but still... Maybe folks are just burnt out on indie fighting games. This is, what, the sixth or seventh indie fighter to get a KS campaign this year?

I do hope more people start to show interest in PR, though. The gameplay looks very accessible (which is rare for this genre) and it has some interesting mechanics. The whole retro presentation is neat too.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I dunno. I think it looks accessible, but at the same time, I think it looks a little too dumbed down. Two button game, and the B button is dust while the A button is jab? Few movement options? I feel like there's not going to be enough variety or options to make the game legitimately competitive. The second they said something like, "we chose these moves (talking about universal normals) because they're the ones you see most often at high level play," I just quit the video the first time I watched it. That statement is just so damn ignorant of how competitive fighting games actually work that it's sad, and made me lose faith in the devs immediately.

I watched the whole thing later, and wasn't much more impressed, to be clear.

Maybe I'm just being too harsh, but I get the feeling they don't understand fighting games enough to make a successful one -- hell, I don't think they understand competitive games in general. I could definitely be wrong: they seem to have Sirlin's endorsement, after all. But my gut isn't saying they've got this right.

[Celerity]

One of their characters is a black werewolf acrobat...smh.

I don't mind the concept of sacrificing execution for strategy, I only hope there are enough options to make the game interesting. Some of the character concepts actually sound really cool, and I feel like they should have shown them off to give us an idea of how an "advanced" character will look.

I get the sense that they do understand competitive fighting games to some degree. The mere idea of a frame advantage bar isn't something you'd come up with otherwise. I'm not really sure how much of a market there is for what they're doing, but I would like to believe that something good will come out of this.

[Dusk Thanatos]

You can't even program the game without understanding frame advantage. That's not something you can use as a measuring stick. The real question is if they understand what makes good games good, and what makes people keep coming back to the top competitive games.

[Celerity]

You can't even program the game without understanding frame advantage. That's not something you can use as a measuring stick. The real question is if they understand what makes good games good, and what makes people keep coming back to the top competitive games.

Right, but it's still a big leap from knowing what frames are to knowing how important frame advantage is to competition. I've seen PLENTY of indie/doujin games made by people who clearly don't have the first clue about frame advantage in relation to game balance, so it's good that the developers of this one are at least conscious of the subject.

I wasn't saying that the game will necessarily be good, because I think some parts of their design philosophy are flawed (like making a casual fighter that only hardcore fighting game players will buy), but the video inspires more confidence in me than the majority of these indie projects.

[Kristoph]

I think the era of "I don't think this game has enough options to be competitive" is over with the success of Divekick, but maybe that's just me!

[Dusk Thanatos]

Divekick was never meant to be a legit competitive game, though. It was a joke first, and any actual mileage is/was a bonus.

It probably could've been a legit competitive game if Dive and Kick had stayed clones and they were they only characters, though. Dunno if it'd have staying power, mind, but it'd have been perfectly balanced

I also think Divekick probably won't be a good competitive game longterm, tbh, because the game is begging to end up with a stale and solved meta -- but that's a different conversation.

[White Man]

People are still calling Divekick a fighting game?

[Kristoph]

^ nobody here said it was, so it sounds like you're trying to start some sort of unrelated argument or something?

Anyway I think PR is a significant step up in complexity from Divekick (I do think it will have staying power so I disagree with you there, but yeah like you said, a different conversation), but not enough that it'll come off as "intimidating" like, say, Skullgirls has. So I think that even if some of the more 'hardcore,' subsystem-craving players aren't entirely satisfied, it could be a much-welcomed "stepping stone" for people at entry-level; you look at some of the other stuff people are excited about and it's all descended from the most hardcore shit to the FGC's name. Skullgirls is an "easier" MvC2 with longer combos and more complex character design, yeah, good luck with that. Yatagarasu is, what, Third Strike and SNK games? Even that fucking MLP game looks like it's got long combos and Melty Blood pressure for days. It would be nice to have more of a middle ground there.

[Celerity]

It does look like a good stepping stone into fighting games, but the problem is, how do you market it that way?

Fighting games are a pretty niche genre, most people who want to play them already do. If you look at other recent successes like Skullgirls and Yatagarasu, they had a very vocal and active fanbase which spread by word of mouth from the top down. In other words, the hardcore players attracted the attention of casual players. I'm not sure this game will be able to replicate that, since there's no existing playerbase like with Skullgirls/MvC2 or Yatagarasu/3S, and the game does not cater to the hardcore player at all.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Part of good marketing is sometimes creating need.

This is one of those cases.

[White Man]

^ nobody here said it was, so it sounds like you're trying to start some sort of unrelated argument or something?

Divekick got mentioned in a discussion about fighting games, so yes, I made the leap that people were categorizing the game in the same genre that was currently being discussed when it was brought up. Not trying to start anything, though. I am utterly indifferent to that game. It's just a pet peeve of mine when everybody calls it a fighter solely because of the graphical style and HUD when the gameplay lacks all but one or two very basic conventions of the genre. People would probably start calling Angry Birds a fighting game if you gave it a techno soundtrack and threw a couple of life bars on the screen.

But I digress!

Concerning Pocket Rumble, I think the game has potential largely because of its simplicity. Just look at how popular Smash Bros. is among both casuals and the EVO crowd. I think the core concept of fighters has incredibly broad appeal, with the barrier to entry and overwhelming complexity of the gameplay in most titles being what usually scare people away. If you can keep the basic structure of "you and the other guy using various attacks to kill each other" but simplify the core gameplay to something that can be learned in hours rather than days or weeks, I think you have something with a potentially massive audience.

The 8-bit graphics won't be a hit with everyone, but enough retro titles have found mainstream appeal that I don't think the visuals should hurt the game's chances for success. They might even be another selling point in some circles.

[the_d3v]

Divekick was never meant to be a legit competitive game, though. It was a joke first, and any actual mileage is/was a bonus.

It probably could've been a legit competitive game if Dive and Kick had stayed clones and they were they only characters, though. Dunno if it'd have staying power, mind, but it'd have been perfectly balanced

I also think Divekick probably won't be a good competitive game longterm, tbh, because the game is begging to end up with a stale and solved meta -- but that's a different conversation.

Balance has little to do with being competitive. Some of are actually enjoying the fact that the game has a few hard counterpicks (near ST levels).

Also, people don't play fighting games to solve the meta. We play 'em to solve the problem that is the other player. Once you understand this, then you understand that simplicity isn't a problem. Heck, ask any SFII/ST player and they'll tell you how the Guile/Ryu matchup is still interesting after all these years despite how simple it seems.

EDIT: As for the SRK front page, we're currently evaluating if this is something that'll gain traction and will be worth putting on the front page. We get requests to post about Kickstarter stuff almost every week and we need to make sure that we post stuff that's worth posting so that we don't become obligated to simply post everyone's crowd funded project/game.

[Kristoph]

It doesn't even need that much 'traction' to make its goal, is the thing. $16000 is peanuts compared to what Yatagarasu pulled, the difference is that Yatagarasu had everyone's immediate attention due to sites like SRK posting featured news about it the day of the Kickstarter.

I'm disappointed overall just with the whole "report on things based on how popular they might be" mentality, but I understand that that's how SRK wants to operate so I won't bemoan it too hard. I just think it's awkward and strange that something like League of Fighters, a game we know curiously little about (next to nothing, I think?), gets this big featured interview on the front page, and meanwhile there's not the slightest peep about Pocket Rumble (where we know the game's overall style, subsystems, control scheme, basic character playstyles, seemingly-finalized music and art, etc). I'm totally 150% in favor of League of Fighters getting that attention, by the way, but it's just strange to me that that's how it works out.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Concerning Pocket Rumble, I think the game has potential largely because of its simplicity. Just look at how popular Smash Bros. is among both casuals and the EVO crowd. I think the core concept of fighters has incredibly broad appeal, with the barrier to entry and overwhelming complexity of the gameplay in most titles being what usually scare people away. If you can keep the basic structure of "you and the other guy using various attacks to kill each other" but simplify the core gameplay to something that can be learned in hours rather than days or weeks, I think you have something with a potentially massive audience.

The 8-bit graphics won't be a hit with everyone, but enough retro titles have found mainstream appeal that I don't think the visuals should hurt the game's chances for success. They might even be another selling point in some circles.

Smash Bros. is popular (and works) because there's a bunch of unintended stuff that makes it interesting to play, and that same unintended stuff also stratifies play and creates high and low levels of play to keep the game's competitive scene rewarded. Smash is more of a happy accident than anything, though there's no reason to complain about that.

The intended form of smash, with all its simplicity, would still work -- it just wouldn't have the same kind of dedicated following, and it wouldn't reward people who put time into the game half as strongly.

Balance has little to do with being competitive. Some of are actually enjoying the fact that the game has a few hard counterpicks (near ST levels).

Also, people don't play fighting games to solve the meta. We play 'em to solve the problem that is the other player. Once you understand this, then you understand that simplicity isn't a problem. Heck, ask any SFII/ST player and they'll tell you how the Guile/Ryu matchup is still interesting after all these years despite how simple it seems.

The main difference is that, in Divekick, it's theoretically possible for one set of choices to be so bad that you can lose the round instantly for it, every round. That's just kind of shitty and unfun. It's one thing if the matchup sucks. It's another if your options effectively become so limited you can only do one thing if you don't want to fuck yourself. There's a difference between solved and stale and solved.

I don't know if that's what Divekick will actually end up like, but the game is so simple that it really could end up like that -- do X, then Y, or you'll just lose. I can't imagine anyone competitively playing a game like that. At the least, you'd have to play enough characters to avoid matchups like that.

[the_d3v]

It doesn't even need that much 'traction' to make its goal, is the thing. $16000 is peanuts compared to what Yatagarasu pulled, the difference is that Yatagarasu had everyone's immediate attention due to sites like SRK posting featured news about it the day of the Kickstarter.

I'm disappointed overall just with the whole "report on things based on how popular they might be" mentality, but I understand that that's how SRK wants to operate so I won't bemoan it too hard. I just think it's awkward and strange that something like League of Fighters, a game we know curiously little about (next to nothing, I think?), gets this big featured interview on the front page, and meanwhile there's not the slightest peep about Pocket Rumble (where we know the game's overall style, subsystems, control scheme, basic character playstyles, seemingly-finalized music and art, etc). I'm totally 150% in favor of League of Fighters getting that attention, by the way, but it's just strange to me that that's how it works out.

League of Fighters getting recognized by Riot was big enough news that even mainstream sites were reporting on it. Same with Yatagarasu.

The main difference is that, in Divekick, it's theoretically possible for one set of choices to be so bad that you can lose the round instantly for it, every round. That's just kind of shitty and unfun. It's one thing if the matchup sucks. It's another if your options effectively become so limited you can only do one thing if you don't want to fuck yourself. There's a difference between solved and stale and solved.

I don't know if that's what Divekick will actually end up like, but the game is so simple that it really could end up like that -- do X, then Y, or you'll just lose. I can't imagine anyone competitively playing a game like that. At the least, you'd have to play enough characters to avoid matchups like that.

And that's different from ST how?

[Kristoph]

Shit, that stuff happens in Chess lol. You actually need to memorize long move sequences because deviation from most of them means you're just dead. It takes a lot more than that to kill a game.

I do think that Divekick's simplicity will make it pretty difficult to avoid lopsided matchups, which is pretty unfortunate, but it's so approachable that people should have no problem just picking up a secondary. Anyway, there are bad matchups in plenty of games, and they're rarely too much of a deterrent for most people. As for Pocket Fighter, it looks like there are plenty of "balance knobs" to turn, so to speak, so if the team decided to put in the effort I'm sure they could end up with a pretty balanced roster.

And d3v, I think I saw on SRK that you put together an article for this. Much appreciated, hope the editors let that one through. I think this still has a chance if it gets front paged, it went up by like ~$200 over the past day which really isn't so bad considering that nobody is reporting on it. Eventhubs is more interested in posting about Keiji Inafune's completely FGC-unrelated Megaman stuff or whatever. =(

[Dusk Thanatos]

And that's different from ST how?

You have more options. Dunno enough about ST to say if you have more viable options, but you definitely have more options.

Shit, that stuff happens in Chess lol. You actually need to memorize long move sequences because deviation from most of them means you're just dead. It takes a lot more than that to kill a game.

I do think that Divekick's simplicity will make it pretty difficult to avoid lopsided matchups, which is pretty unfortunate, but it's so approachable that people should have no problem just picking up a secondary. Anyway, there are bad matchups in plenty of games, and they're rarely too much of a deterrent for most people. As for Pocket Fighter, it looks like there are plenty of "balance knobs" to turn, so to speak, so if the team decided to put in the effort I'm sure they could end up with a pretty balanced roster.

Chess has a lot more opening variants, though, and a lot more possible moves early game. Even if most of the possible moves are atrocious ideas, in chess's one matchup, there's 18 possible opening moves. Most of them suck, but there are at least four or five that're pretty reasonable. There aren't that many options in a Divekick matchup at round start, period.

Besides, midgame is the meat of chess, and midgame isn't really solved. Endgame and the first ~5 moves are pretty set, but bridging the two is actual work with a heavy emphasis on personal choices. Divekick theory may make it so there isn't even a midgame once it's all said and done.

[SoWL]

Shit, that stuff happens in Chess lol. You actually need to memorize long move sequences because deviation from most of them means you're just dead. It takes a lot more than that to kill a game.

Chess is an overrated game that is only played because of its long history. It would've flopped if it were invented today.

While I don't really want to discuss Divekick in a thread about a different game, I like to bring up this quote whenever people talk about it:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/antoinedes121910.html

[Celerity]

Chess is an overrated game that is only played because of its long history. It would've flopped if it were invented today.

IMO that says more about how our culture has devolved than the quality of chess as a game.

[Dusk Thanatos]

IMO that says more about how our culture has devolved than the quality of chess as a game.

But clearly, go>>>chess.

At least go compensates for the advantage of first move. Also one of the games that computers still aren't better at than we are.

...Though I digress.